What did Paul preach to the Corinthians? (2)

[Johnnz]

I fail to see that the Good News of Christ was for an exclusive, predetermined minority. John seemed pretty expansive and inclusive in his understanding of Jesus.

John 1:4-5 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood* it. NIV
* Overcome
Men = humanity is how I see that.

John 1:6-9 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. NIV
All men, every man. That looks rather inclusive too.

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." NIV

A 'whoever' that means 'only those God has already determined' is a nonsense.

Paul wrote these words:
Col 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. NIV

All that was created is held together in Christ. That must include the physical bodies of every person. Their very existence depends on Christ. Is He then keeping them alive by His presence only to have predestined them to Hell? That's a god who is torturer in extremis.

John
NZ

 

[nobdysfool]

Whoever, whosoever...apparently the use of the word, in whatever form, is not understood to be conditional. John 3:16 is a conditional statement in the form of "if A, then B", where IF A takes place, B will follow. Nowhere in that statement, or that form of statement, is there any mention or statement of ability on the part of the participants. It only says that if A (if anyone believes), then B (they will have everlasting life). No mention is made of anyone's ability to believe, only that those who do will obtain everlasting life as a consequence of that belief. Nothing more.

To read ability into such a statement is the rawest and most amateurish form of eisegesis. And yet we see people doing so every day, and then taking high offense when it is pointed out, and it SHOULD be pointed out! Salvation is not owed to anyone. There is no unfairness if a person never "has a chance" to be saved, because Salvation does not depend on man or his choices, or his ability to choose, or a "chance", Salvation is 100% God's doing, as He Wills, and as He chooses. it is not an offer, it is a command. It may offend some sensibilities to say it that way, But God is not beholden to our sensibilities, we are beholden to Him, and our response should and must be. "Thine is the Power, and the Glory and the Right, both now and evermore, O Most High!" If that offends, or causes anyone to question God's so-called "fairness", then perhaps they were never His in the first place.

A lot of people may fool themselves into believing they are one of His, and then resist any revelation of His character, His Sovereignty, or His methods. Such cannot be one of His, and resist that which is His. Ignorance may provide cover for a time, but He expects His children to learn about Him. And when they do, they must put away childish notions, and embrace the Truth.

 

[Johnnz]

The eisegesis is yours entirely, You presuppose prior divine selection and place it onto John 3:16 and other such verses.

The preceding story of Nicodemus was to highlight the good news offered through Jesus was to be available to all people, not just to the Jewish people, people born by the Holy Spirit, not by Jewish cultural identity. There is never as much as a whisper suggesting pre-selection in that verse, as the following verses make clear:

John 3:16-21 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. his is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
NIV

Personal choice is what separates, not God's prior choice.

John
NZ

 

[Jack Terrence]

I fail to see that the Good News of Christ was for an exclusive, predetermined minority. John seemed pretty expansive and inclusive in his understanding of Jesus.

John 1:4-5 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood* it. NIV
* Overcome
Men = humanity is how I see that.

John 1:6-9 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. NIV
All men, every man. That looks rather inclusive too.

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." NIV

A 'whoever' that means 'only those God has already determined' is a nonsense.

Paul wrote these words:
Col 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. NIV

All that was created is held together in Christ. That must include the physical bodies of every person. Their very existence depends on Christ. Is He then keeping them alive by His presence only to have predestined them to Hell? That's a god who is torturer in extremis.

John
NZ

John said that He came unto HIS OWN and that HIS OWN received Him not. Jesus said, "I was sent NOT but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Therefore, when it says that he was the light of men it cannot mean that He was the light of all humanity, for He came only to israel.

Give it up! You have no case! You preach a false hope to men. It is very dangerous to promise men something that God has not promised them. Christ died for His people and nobody else.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

This is a pretty straight forward statement. Nothing is mentioned about differentiating between older and younger sons. Anyone that exercises faith in Christ becomes a 'child of Abraham' - that's what it says.

The Greek word "huios" means "adult son." Kenneth Wuest is a Greek scholar. He is NOT a Calvinist. Yet he correctly says,

We received the adoption of sons. This expression in the Greek is literally, "in order that we might receive adult son placing. We could paraphrase it "in order that we might be placed as adult sons."

Wuest's Word Studies in Galatians, page 116.

So you are WRONG to say that there is no differentiation between older and younger sons. In chapter 4 Paul said that they were child-heirs who had become sons by faith. The word "children" is the Greek word for "minor." The word "son" is the word for "adult son." So, even as minors they were children of Abraham and heirs. But by faith they became adult sons and took possession of their inheritance.

As minors they differed nothing from a slave. But as adult sons they came to cry "abba father."

Paul goes on to illustrate these truths from the example of Isaac. Isaac was born of promise and a child of God from Sarah's womb. But you cannot accept these truths because you reject Covenantal Theology.

 

[janxharris]

Whoever, whosoever...apparently the use of the word, in whatever form, is not understood to be conditional. John 3:16 is a conditional statement in the form of "if A, then B", where IF A takes place, B will follow. Nowhere in that statement, or that form of statement, is there any mention or statement of ability on the part of the participants. It only says that if A (if anyone believes), then B (they will have everlasting life). No mention is made of anyone's ability to believe, only that those who do will obtain everlasting life as a consequence of that belief. Nothing more.

On the contrary, Jesus could not have been clearer that this offer was for all. Jesus was crucified and lifted up just as the snake in the wilderness was. Nobody was denied.

Numbers 21:8-9
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

John 3:14-16
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

To read ability into such a statement is the rawest and most amateurish form of eisegesis. And yet we see people doing so every day, and then taking high offense when it is pointed out, and it SHOULD be pointed out! Salvation is not owed to anyone. There is no unfairness if a person never "has a chance" to be saved, because Salvation does not depend on man or his choices, or his ability to choose, or a "chance", Salvation is 100% God's doing, as He Wills, and as He chooses. it is not an offer, it is a command.

The lifting up of Christ is just as the lifting up of the snake which was an offer. Are you denying that any Israelite might look to the snake and be saved?

It may offend some sensibilities to say it that way, But God is not beholden to our sensibilities, we are beholden to Him, and our response should and must be. "Thine is the Power, and the Glory and the Right, both now and evermore, O Most High!" If that offends, or causes anyone to question God's so-called "fairness", then perhaps they were never His in the first place.

Such an interpretation does cause offence, but God's words don't.

 

[janxharris]

John said that He came unto HIS OWN and that HIS OWN received Him not. Jesus said, "I was sent NOT but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Therefore, when it says that he was the light of men it cannot mean that He was the light of all humanity, for He came only to israel.

Give it up! You have no case! You preach a false hope to men. It is very dangerous to promise men something that God has not promised them. Christ died for His people and nobody else.

In that case, it is a sad day for all non-Israelites.

There is no preaching of a false hope. 'World' is never explicitly defined as 'elect', so we can be forgiven for thinking that it means what it appears to mean rather than as some impose a meaning on it. It would seem that Saint John used the wrong words to convey his meaning; so much so that they have to be redefined by some.

 

[nobdysfool]

On the contrary, Jesus could not have been clearer that this offer was for all. Jesus was crucified and lifted up just as the snake in the wilderness was. Nobody was denied.

I never said anyone was denied. Show me where I said that.

Numbers 21:8-9 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

John 3:14-16
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A conditional statement in the form of "if A, then B". Clear as day.

The lifting up of Christ is just as the lifting up of the snake which was an offer. Are you denying that any Israelite might look to the snake and be saved?

I never said such a thing. Please re-read until my actual point becomes clear. It was not an offer, it was a statement of fact.

Such an interpretation does cause offence, but God's words don't.

God's Word is an offense to the unsaved. It is foolishness to them. Scripture clearly states this, Who would deny it?

 

[janxharris]

The Greek word "huios" means "adult son." Kenneth Wuest is a Greek scholar. He is NOT a Calvinist. Yet he correctly says,

We received the adoption of sons. This expression in the Greek is literally, "in order that we might receive adult son placing. We could paraphrase it "in order that we might be placed as adult sons."

Wuest's Word Studies in Galatians, page 116.

So you are WRONG to say that there is no differentiation between older and younger sons. In chapter 4 Paul said that they were child-heirs who had become sons by faith. The word "children" is the Greek word for "minor." The word "son" is the word for "adult son." So, even as minors they were children of Abraham and heirs. But by faith they became adult sons and took possession of their inheritance.

As minors they differed nothing from a slave. But as adult sons they came to cry "abba father."

Paul goes on to illustrate these truths from the example of Isaac. Isaac was born of promise and a child of God from Sarah's womb. But you cannot accept these truths because you reject Covenantal Theology.

The argument that one must be an Israelite, an heir, before one might then exercise faith in Christ is curious. I cannot see it in Galatians. Where is the the explicit statement?

 

[Johnnz]

John said that He came unto HIS OWN and that HIS OWN received Him not. Jesus said, "I was sent NOT but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Therefore, when it says that he was the light of men it cannot mean that He was the light of all humanity, for He came only to israel.

Give it up! You have no case! You preach a false hope to men. It is very dangerous to promise men something that God has not promised them. Christ died for His people and nobody else.

Jesus was a Jew. He was the promised Messiah. He came firstly to the Jewish people - His own. They rejected Him rather than join His new mission in fulfillment of the promise to Abraham - now both Jew and Gentile belong. Acts is the story of the Gospel spreading beyond its initial Jewish roots into the Roman world to include Gentiles. Paul wrote about this pretty extensively.

John
NZ

 

[nobdysfool]

The eisegesis is yours entirely, You presuppose prior divine selection and place it onto John 3:16 and other such verses.

I did no such thing. I never said or implied anything about prior divine selection. One could look all day at what i wrote and not find even a hint of such a thing. Please retract the false claim.

The preceding story of Nicodemus was to highlight the good news offered through Jesus was to be available to all people, not just to the Jewish people, people born by the Holy Spirit, not by Jewish cultural identity. There is never as much as a whisper suggesting pre-selection in that verse, as the following verses make clear:

John 3:16-21 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. his is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." NIV

Straw man and red herring. I'm being accused of things i never said or did.

Personal choice is what separates, not God's prior choice.

Obviously my points were not grasped or even considered. Why?

 

[janxharris]

I never said anyone was denied. Show me where I said that. Numbers 21:8-9
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

You are suggesting that those whom you say Christ did not die for have the wherewithal to believe?

A conditional statement in the form of "if A, then B". Clear as day.

The snake lifted up was an offer. The heads of the Israelites had to be turned and the eyes had to focus on the snake. John says that the crucifixion is 'just as' the snake on the pole - belief in Christ unto salvation is just as looking to the snake for life. Therefore, the crucifixion is an offer. There is no suggestion that this was only possible for a certain group - that those outside that group were without access.

I never said such a thing. Please re-read until my actual point becomes clear. It was not an offer, it was a statement of fact.

Was the snake on the pole an offer or not?

God's Word is an offense to the unsaved. It is foolishness to them. Scripture clearly states this, Who would deny it?

As I have said before and as FG2 and others have said, that which is considered foolish is the 'message of wisdom for the mature' (1 Corinthians 2:6). The simple Gospel was preached thus:

1 Corinthians 2:1-5
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

We also know that Paul told them that Christ died for them (as unbelievers) as per the OP.

 

[janxharris]

I did no such thing. I never said or implied anything about prior divine selection. One could look all day at what i wrote and not find even a hint of such a thing. Please retract the false claim.

Do you presuppose divine election or not?

 

[janxharris]

Whoever, whosoever...apparently the use of the word, in whatever form, is not understood to be conditional. John 3:16 is a conditional statement in the form of "if A, then B", where IF A takes place, B will follow. Nowhere in that statement, or that form of statement, is there any mention or statement of ability on the part of the participants. It only says that if A (if anyone believes), then B (they will have everlasting life). No mention is made of anyone's ability to believe, only that those who do will obtain everlasting life as a consequence of that belief. Nothing more.

Luke 22:19-21
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table."

Luke wrote that Jesus gave His body and shed His blood for Judas - therefore eternal life was made available to him. How could someone who believed in limited atonement write this?

 

[nobdysfool]

You are suggesting that those whom you say Christ did not die for have the wherewithal to believe?



The snake lifted up was an offer. The heads of the Israelites had to be turned and the eyes had to focus on the snake. John says that the crucifixion is 'just as' the snake on the pole - belief in Christ unto salvation is just as looking to the snake for life. Therefore, the crucifixion is an offer. There is no suggestion that this was only possible for a certain group - that those outside that group were without access.



Was the snake on the pole an offer or not?



As I have said before and as FG2 and others have said, that which is considered foolish is the 'message of wisdom for the mature' (1 Corinthians 2:6). The simple Gospel was preached thus:

1 Corinthians 2:1-5
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

We also know that Paul told them that Christ died for them (as unbelievers) as per the OP.

There are some people here who need to quit trying to play "gotcha", and putting words in others' mouths that they never said, and then trying to destroy them with those false words. It needs to stop now, or there will be consequences. Do I make myself clear?

 

[nobdysfool]

You are suggesting that those whom you say Christ did not die for have the wherewithal to believe?

I am not going to answer false accusations. there is much assumption going on here. Go back and read what i wrote, and realize that I said what i meant, and meant what i said, and nothing should be read into it. It is clear, it is plain, and it is Truth.

The snake lifted up was an offer. The heads of the Israelites had to be turned and the eyes had to focus on the snake. John says that the crucifixion is 'just as' the snake on the pole - belief in Christ unto salvation is just as looking to the snake for life. Therefore, the crucifixion is an offer. There is no suggestion that this was only possible for a certain group - that those outside that group were without access.

And no one suggested such a preposterous idea, especially not me. As for the snake being an "offer", what is offered as proof?

Was the snake on the pole an offer or not?

Why ask me? I never made that claim.

As I have said before and as FG2 and others have said, that which is considered foolish is the 'message of wisdom for the mature' (1 Corinthians 2:6).

Opinions vary, and that is all it is, an opinion.

The simple Gospel was preached thus:

1 Corinthians 2:1-5
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Oh, that there were those who would preach the gospel as Paul did, without agendas and attempts to destroy fellow believers, as is being done here.

We also know that Paul told them that Christ died for them (as unbelievers) as per the OP.

As I said, opinions vary....would that people would learn to accept it, and move on....

 

[janxharris]

There are some people here who need to quit trying to play "gotcha", and putting words in others' mouths that they never said, and then trying to destroy them with those false words. It needs to stop now, or there will be consequences. Do I make myself clear?

Please let me assure you that I am not trying to play 'gotcha'. Sorry if it seemed I was trying to put words in your mouth - I did put a question mark at the end of:

You are suggesting that those whom you say Christ did not die for have the wherewithal to believe?

I do not wish to 'destroy' anyone.

 

[janxharris]

I am not going to answer false accusations. there is much assumption going on here. Go back and read what i wrote, and realize that I said what i meant, and meant what i said, and nothing should be read into it. It is clear, it is plain, and it is Truth.

You:

To read ability into such a statement is the rawest and most amateurish form of eisegesis. And yet we see people doing so every day, and then taking high offense when it is pointed out, and it SHOULD be pointed out! Salvation is not owed to anyone. There is no unfairness if a person never "has a chance" to be saved, because Salvation does not depend on man or his choices, or his ability to choose, or a "chance", Salvation is 100% God's doing, as He Wills, and as He chooses. it is not an offer, it is a command. It may offend some sensibilities to say it that way, But God is not beholden to our sensibilities, we are beholden to Him, and our response should and must be. "Thine is the Power, and the Glory and the Right, both now and evermore, O Most High!" If that offends, or causes anyone to question God's so-called "fairness", then perhaps they were never His in the first place.

You assert that there is no offer but also that:

I never said anyone was denied.

I am just asking you that if it is not an offer but that nobody is denied a chance at salvation then surely that implies that everyone has the wherewithal to be saved? If this is not the case, would you please explain how nobody is denied?

And no one suggested such a preposterous idea, especially not me. As for the snake being an "offer", what is offered as proof?

You wrote this in response to:

The snake lifted up was an offer. The heads of the Israelites had to be turned and the eyes had to focus on the snake. John says that the crucifixion is 'just as' the snake on the pole - belief in Christ unto salvation is just as looking to the snake for life. Therefore, the crucifixion is an offer. There is no suggestion that this was only possible for a certain group - that those outside that group were without access.​

So my statement is preposterous - why?

You want me to prove that the snake was an offer. Google defines offer as:

Present or proffer (something) for (someone) to accept or reject as desired.

The snake is presented to the Israelites which they can accept (by looking at it) or reject (avoid looking at it as in disbelief) as desired. Nobody was denied this offer of life which means the offer was genuine.

Why ask me? I never made that claim.

You have said that salvation is not offered and St. John states that the Jesus' crucifixion is 'just as' the snake being lifted up, so I assumed that you did not think the snake was an offer.

Why can't I ask you if the snake on the pole is an offer or not? No, you never made that claim, but you could just answer the question.

Opinions vary, and that is all it is, an opinion.

This does not refute what I said:

...that which is considered foolish is the 'message of wisdom for the mature' (1 Corinthians 2:6). ​

Oh, that there were those who would preach the gospel as Paul did, without agendas and attempts to destroy fellow believers, as is being done here.

Paul preached Christ crucified...to unbelievers.

As I said, opinions vary....would that people would learn to accept it, and move on....

?

If someone posts that salvation is not offered then they shouldn't be surprised that there is a strong reaction.

Also, I posted this:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7790172-74/#post64737833

 

[janxharris]

Numbers 21:6-9
Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.​

All Israelites without exception could take up the offer of life when bitten by a snake. All they had to do was believe and look at the bronze snake on the pole.

John 3:14-16
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

Since the crucifixion is exactly comparable to the snake on the pole, then salvation through Jesus Christ is certainly offered to all men. I don't know how John could have put it any clearer. St. Paul agreed and stated that he and the other Apostles preached this.

 

[janxharris]

This new thread is related to the OP:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7795099/#post64744673