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What did Jesus mean when He told Peter he was the rock he would build his church upon?

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Lybrah, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you say is technically true? But please remember Jesus was actually speaking Hebrew. So what matters is what Jesus actually said in Hebrew.

    I understand that in Hebrew, there's just one word. Cephas. Simon Cephas. Which means a massive rock
     
  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Three different Hebrew words are translated “rock” or “stone.” In this name, the root word sela‘ refers to a crag or cliff with a fissure or split—hence the picture of God as a rock of refuge and a hiding place for security.

    [​IMG]
    God my rock (El Sal‘i) in the Hebrew text of Psalm 42:9.

    God my rock in Hebrew:
    ’El sal‘i

    Strong’s Concordance numbers: 410, 5553

    Bible reference: Ps. 42:9

    In Psalm 42 and 43 the psalmist expresses his deep desire for God but also reflects on times when he despaired of God’s help. This name of God was spoken in one of those times.

    I will say to God my rock, “Why have You forgotten me?
    Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?”
    As a shattering of my bones, my adversaries revile me,
    While they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
    (Psalm 42:9-10)

    Several similar names for God, which use words like “rock” or “stone,” occur throughout the Bible. Most of the Old Testament names use another Hebrew word tsur. Among them are names like Chief Cornerstone, Living Stone, Rock of my Salvation, Rock of Israel, and Rock of ages (or Everlasting Rock). Some of these are names of God, others of Jesus (Yeshua‘).
    God my rock - All the Biblical Names for God

    I believe Paul knew exactly what Jesus meant and the Greek describes it very well. Paul was quite fluent in Greek.
     
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  3. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, of course, Paul was fluent in Greek and Hebrew. Plausibly, Aramaic. What do you mean by Paul though? Isn't the issue here? What MATTHEW meant in Matthew 16?
     
  4. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Great article.

    Is clear that the Hebrew TSUR Is equivalent to the Greek LITHOS

    Hebrew Sal'i is translated as Greek antileptor.

    whereas Petros/petra translates Cephas.
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    So sorry--horribly tired yet unable to sleep!
     
  6. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Cephas

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    Job 30:6 - To dwell in the clifts of the valleys, in caves of the earth, and in the rocks. H3710


    Jer 4:29 - The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: H3710 every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein​

    meaning is essentially the same as the Greek PETRA. Meaning a Crag, a rocky outcropping of bedrock. So called living rock connected. The bedrock in the Earth.
     
  7. tz620q

    tz620q Regular Member Supporter

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    If you can find it, there is a great apologetic from Steven Ray about this. He was traveling in the Holy Land and they went to Caesarea Philippi. There is a spot there that was thought to be the point where Jesus made these pronouncements. The first thing that Ray observed was that this is about a day and a half walk north of Nazareth/Capernaum. So why would Jesus walk them this far to ask who he was? Viewing the geography and some of the history of this point helped show Ray what might have been the reason. At the time of Jesus, Philip the Tetrarch, son of Herod the Great ruled this area and trying to ingratiate himself with the Caesars had rebuilt Caesarea Philippi, renaming it after himself. On a crag in the city, he had built a new temple to Apollo. One can imagine Jesus showing his disciples this new temple as he told them that Peter was the rock on which he would build his church. Also at the base of this crag is a pit that was used by the ancient residents of this area to make human sacrifices. The bodies were thrown into the pit, which became known later as the Gates of Hell. This pit is above the underground part of the Jordan River, which to people living in this area is a source for their livelihood. Jesus was pointing to this source of water and comparing the physical sustenance it gave to the eternal spiritual sustenance that belief in himself as Son of God would give.

    So to those who say that Jesus was speaking about Peter's confession of faith, I say, of course he was. The church is built on faith in Christ, sustained by that faith, and ruled by that faith; but faith is never an object unto itself. It must flow from God to us and from us back to God, a river of self-giving that does not leave the giver where he started but carries him onward in his journey. In summary, I agree with your view completely and am posting this only as an addition to it.
     
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  8. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    ***

    "But please remember Jesus was actually speaking Hebrew." Was he? Could have been greek, or Aramaic (actually likely). Whether Hebrew, greek or Aramaic .... there is no way of knowing.

    Regardless there are all these verses about Jesus/God being our rock and I don't find Peter referenced in any of them, nor pointing to any apostle or any man.

    About rocks.

    Jesus is God and is the rock ... the church is built on Jesus/God ... no doubt in my mind.

    Jesus is God.

    I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I Am’.” (John 8:58)

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)

    John 10


    I and the Father are one.”

    The Rock

    Psalm 78:35

    And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

    Genesis 49:24

    But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

    Deuteronomy 32:15

    "But Jeshu run grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

    2 Samuel 23:3

    "The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, 'He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,

    Psalm 42:9

    I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

    Isaiah 30:29

    You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

    Habakkuk 1:12

    Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.

    2 Samuel 22:32

    "For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

    Psalm 18:31

    For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

    1 Samuel 2:2

    "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

    Isaiah 44:8

    'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"

    Deuteronomy 32:31

    "Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

    Deuteronomy 32:37
    "And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

    Psalm 144:1

    Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

    Deuteronomy 32:4

    "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

    Psalm 92:15

    To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

    Psalm 62:7

    On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

    Psalm 28:1

    To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

    Psalm 31:1-3

    In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me. Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me. For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

    Psalm 61:2

    From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

    Psalm 71:3

    Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

    Isaiah 26:4

    "Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

    Psalm 94:22

    But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

    Psalm 59:9

    Because of his strength I will watch for You, For God is my stronghold.

    Psalm 91:2

    I will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!"


    2 Samuel 22:3

    My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

    Psalm 18:2

    The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

    Jesus declares that God had revealed this truth to Peter. The word for “Peter,” Petros, means a small stone (John 1:42). Jesus used a play on words here with petra (“on this rock”) which means a foundation boulder, as in Matthew 7:24, 25 when He described the rock upon which the wise man builds his house. Peter himself uses the same imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of numerous small petros “living stones” (1 Peter 2:5) who, like Peter, confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and those confessions of faith are the bedrock of the church.

    New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) (Christ is head of the church). It makes no sense at all giving those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles (all of them) played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So, Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. And Christ Himself is called the “chief cornerstone” (1 Peter 2:6, 7). The chief cornerstone of any building was that upon which the building was anchored. If Christ declared Himself to be the cornerstone, how could Peter be the rock upon which the church was built? It is more likely that the believers, of which Peter is one, are the stones which make up the church, anchored upon the Cornerstone, “and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).

    Others believe differently, ... I agree to disagree ;o)

    Jesus is my rock and always will be.

    God Bless.
     
  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus is God's WORD incarnate

    the SON is not the Father

    the Trinity is three persons


    yes, the Word of God is as eternal as the speaker of the Word

    so are we, John 17:20-23

    yet we're neither the Son nor the Father

    "unity" is what is meant



    no Petros means a bolder or bigger

    the Greek word for small stone is Lithos

    even the chief corner stone is a Lithos, as it happens

    (but 1 Peter 2:1-8 uses both words in parallel to describe Jesus as the corner stone and boulder rock of stumbling)

    actually living stones are Lithos not Petros

    of course, from heaven until the second coming

    on earth, Peter was the first APOSTLE the risen Jesus visited, Peter was in charge of the watch at Gethsemane, only Peter received the keys, Peter was told 3x to feed Jesus' sheep, and Peter was the obvious spokesman for the earliest Christian community from Acts 2 onwards
     
  10. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Some things about Peter

    Luke 22:54-62 (Peter denying Jesus)

    54 Then they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high priest's house, and Peter was following at a distance. 55 And when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat down among them. 56 Then a servant girl, seeing him as he sat in the light and looking closely at him, said, “This man also was with him.” 57 But he denied it, saying, “Woman, I do not know him.” 58 And a little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” But Peter said, “Man, I am not.” 59 And after an interval of about an hour still another insisted, saying, “Certainly this man also was with him, for he too is a Galilean.” 60 But Peter said, “Man, I do not know what you are talking about.” And immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed. 61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of the Lord, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times.” 62 And he went out and wept bitterly.

    What do these texts tell us about Peter, even while he functioned so prominently in the early church?

    Galatians 1:18-19
    Galatians 2:9
    Galatians 2:11-14

    Who has the Keys? Jesus

    Revelation 1:18 - I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Revelation 3:7 - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

    Isaiah 22:22 - And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

    Revelation 9:1 - And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    Sheep (the Lord is our Shepard)

    Hebrews 13:20

    Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

    John 10:11-15

    I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    John 10:4
    When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

    John 10:7
    So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

    We are His sheep, Jesus is our shepherd, our rock and He holds the keys.

    God Bless.
     
  11. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In the original Greek Jesus speaking to Peter clearly used the second person SINGULAR. When he said, "You Peter are the rock" he meant everything SINGULAR.

    "THOU Peter are this SINGULAR Rock and on this one SINGLE rock. I will found my church."

    Eastern Orthodox claim that Jesus speaking in the singular to Peter. Somehow extends to all Apostles and all of the Bishops Apostolicly Descended from them. They generalize from the singular Peter to all Apostles and all bishops.

    Protestants generalize even more generalizing from the singular Peter to every single believer.

    According to the Greek New Testament. All believers are STONES (lithos), Peter was bedrock (petros). In modern English JC said, "you are Craig & upon this crag" like Castle Rock under Edinburgh Castle.

    If everyone is a petros, does everyone get a copy of the keys to the realm? Everyone gets to consecrate bishops & write a pair of epistles?

    Nothing special whatsoever about Saint Peter. The fact remains he was the very first person to Proclaim Jesus, the Christ. First come first serve?

    Peter the Rock.jpeg
     
  12. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Again, even IF true, your church has hi-jacked Peter into your claims regarding the RCC...BTW, I never said there was nothing special about Peter. But like I said, there may have been 2 things going on there...He nick-named Peter (actually all the way back in John 1:42 ) because of his faith AND that this faith is what the Church will be built on...there are other verses alluding to rock and stone and building on rock rather than sand, and that had nothing to do with Peter...

    “Therefore, whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock

    "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

    "And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God..."

    "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ"
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    See there you go again! Peter was asked 3X if he loved Him BECAUSE Peter denied Him 3X...He needed to make sure Peter understood what he had done...
     
  14. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    You seem to forget John 1:42
     
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  15. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    thanks for your open mind,


    Yes, of course, That seems intuitively reasonable. Christian believers should EMULATE the most pious members amongst them, which most pious members would logically be. The Dickinson Presbyters bishops and so on.

    So every Christian should try to emulate Saint Peter's Confession of faith.



    Matthew 7:24 uses petra G4073 meaning a rocky crag outcropping of bedrock Serving as, the foundation UPON WHICH to build a structure.

    Once again every believer should try their best to emulate Jesus and the Apostles But the language used corroborates my claim. A PETRA is a rocky outcropping of bedrock upon which a structure is built, just just like the church, the role model everyone seeks to emulate

    Matthew 21:42-44

    That's G3073 LITHOS, referring to a cut out stone used in a building... the context is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE the uttermost most extreme cornerstone? Which is a messianic reference to Jesus as the CHRIST

    1 Peter 2:4-8

    That's also G3073 LITHOS, that's the exact same Old Testament allusion, referring to a cut out stone used in a building... the CHIEF CORNERSTONE the uttermost most extreme cornerstone? Which is a messianic reference to Jesus as the CHRIST...

    So, in this cluster of Parallel. Metaphors. Jesus is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE. Every author believer is a regular STONE. They all fit together. As one structure. Of many, many LITHOS G3073

    Please do note verse 8 also uses the term rock PETRA G4073. Again applied to Jesus as the foundation bedrock.

    1 Corinthians 10:4

    G4073 PETRA Rock. Jesus was the rocky outcropping of bed rock the rock of Meribah.

    Peter praised Jesus publicly calling him the Messiah. Jesus turned right around and praised Peter publicly calling him the rock itself a messianic. term. Ultimately, we are all in Jesus and Jesus is in us figuratively speaking I guess.

    But other than Jesus only the Apostle Simon Peter is. Denoted with that Messianic term rock. Offer that's a very important point.
     
  16. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why is that? The pronoun "you" is still the exact same Greek term. Which is second person singular? "THOU Art Peter.THOU shall be called Simon Cephas. Which is translated A rock" SINGULAR.
     
  17. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And that he forgave him. 7. * 7. Everyone else ran away.
     
  18. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Because Peter already had this nick-name long before the statement in the current discussion...
     
  19. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Yes, but what is your point?
     
  20. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus knew all people, he had PROPHETIC FORESIGHT. He knew that Saint Peter would be the first to confess faith in him as Christ.
     
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