What did Jesus mean when He told Peter he was the rock he would build his church upon?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Did I suggest that he wasn't? Most of the time forgiveness is pronounced for the benefit of the forgiven. The forgiver always knows when he has forgiven someone.

I was just agreeing with you that Peter was forgiven. You wrote "Jesus asked three times because he wanted Peter to know he was forgiven."

 

[Erik Nelson]

PETER is the divinely inspired Greek translation of Hebrew CEPHAS, correct?

 

[FireDragon76]

How else do you interpret this? These words of St Cyprian

“With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source.”

Rome was a patriarchate, nobody is disputing that.

 

[tz620q]

Rome was a patriarchate, nobody is disputing that.

It seems that the patriarchate system developed over time, especially after Constantine and the rapid growth of the Church in the fourth century AD. This process continued after Nicea when Constantinople was added and later Moscow. So I don't think the patriarchate structure would have been recognized by the apostles. This is not saying that it was not a needed development to manage a rapidly growing Christianity, just that it is a development and not necessarily part of the 1st century church. The issue I have with patriarchs is that it is seen as a necessary requirement in the church, without acknowledging the process of development.

 

[eleos1954]

The name Jesus gave Simon bar Jonah was "Cephas" or "Kephas", not Petra.

• Title of Saint Peter. Cephas (in Greek Κηφᾶς, pronounced Kiphas, or in Aramaic, kēpā) means stone. It is the name given to Apostle Peter. As in John 1:42, Jesus says: "You are Simon son of Jona, you shall be called Cephas" (meaning a stone).

a stone is very small ... unlike ... "on this rock "

Strongs Greek

petra: a (large mass of) rock
Original Word: πέτρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: petra
Phonetic Spelling: (pet'-ra)
Definition: a (large mass of) rock
Usage: a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground.
HELPS Word-studies
4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock," which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone or boulder" (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a "solid or native rock, rising up through the earth" (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

Peter is a stone (small) .... Jesus is the rock (huge - in this verse used in it's feminine form) and on Him the huge mass of rock the church is built.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't see either repentance or forgiveness mentioned. Perhaps Peter didn't commit a sin in denying he knew who Christ was? It's not like he didn't believe in Christ, he just told people what they wanted to hear.

In claiming that he loved Jesus, he repented. In asking Peter if he loved Jesus, Jesus forgave him.

I don't know if he committed a sin, but he did pledge that he would die for Jesus, and then he denied even knowing him. He was covering his own butt.
Yours is a unique interpretation...

 

[Petros2015]

Huh.

Wait a minute.

Where is Peter buried?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I was just agreeing with you that Peter was forgiven. You wrote "Jesus asked three times because he wanted Peter to know he was forgiven."

OK. Then I misunderstood, and beg forgiveness myself.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Huh.

Wait a minute.

Where is Peter buried?

Under St. Peter's basilica in the Vatican.

 

[Root of Jesse]

• Title of Saint Peter. Cephas (in Greek Κηφᾶς, pronounced Kiphas, or in Aramaic, kēpā) means stone. It is the name given to Apostle Peter. As in John 1:42, Jesus says: "You are Simon son of Jona, you shall be called Cephas" (meaning a stone).

a stone is very small ... unlike ... "on this rock "

Strongs Greek

petra: a (large mass of) rock
Original Word: πέτρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: petra
Phonetic Spelling: (pet'-ra)
Definition: a (large mass of) rock
Usage: a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground.
HELPS Word-studies
4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock," which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone or boulder" (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a "solid or native rock, rising up through the earth" (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

Peter is a stone (small) .... Jesus is the rock (huge - in this verse used in it's feminine form) and on Him the huge mass of rock the church is built.

You like to emphasize the 'small', when it's not there. A rock is a rock, and as @Erik Nelson points out, the Rock is the foundation of the Church.
That Jesus is the Rock doesn't show that Peter is not. Just as the King has authority, but gives it to his prime minister, so Jesus gives Peter (and his successors) the authority to bind and loose, to forgive and to condemn, guided by the Holy Spirit. While Jesus needed no guide, Peter, being human, did.

 

[FireDragon76]

In claiming that he loved Jesus, he repented. In asking Peter if he loved Jesus, Jesus forgave him.

I don't know if he committed a sin, but he did pledge that he would die for Jesus, and then he denied even knowing him. He was covering his own butt.
Yours is a unique interpretation...

It's a sin, but it does show us that the flesh is weak. I don't think many of us in Peter's shoes could have done otherwise. Esp. because Jesus said that Satan had been gunning for him.

 

[eleos1954]

Aren't you the folks who like us to remember that, according to Romans, "all have sinned" and fall short? So if Jesus was going to choose a leader of his Church, which one was worthy? The fact is, none of them was perfect, they all had human failings. But Jesus promised them that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all Truth. Gamaliel said it best-If it is of God, nothing can stop it, if it's not of God, nothing can keep it together. So the proof that the Catholic Church is still the Church of God is that it still exists, even with all the attempts that have been made through history to destroy it.

"all have sinned" and fall short? So if Jesus was going to choose a leader of his Church, which one was worthy?" None of them.

Peter was an apostle, of the time a member of the twelve apostles. What is an apostle?

a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle, and yes Peter did that ... he preached the Gospel ... just like all the other apostles did. Jesus was the leader of all the apostles.

Jesus is the head of the church

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man (including Peter), and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Ephesians 1

22 And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the *church,

*
ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Usage: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
HELPS Word-studies
1577 ekklēsía(from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 2564 /kaléō, "to call") – properly, people called out from the world and to God, the outcome being the Church (the mystical body of Christ) – i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

[The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord" (kyrios). 1577 /ekklēsía ("church") is the root of the terms "ecclesiology" and "ecclesiastical."]

The called out ones transcends all church organizations/denominations, they are within them and also outside of them and all believers in Christ Jesus are His church.

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It's all about Jesus ... always has been ... always will be.

Is what I believe ... others may and do believe differently, that's fine ... each of us has a personal relationship with the Lord and only God knows the hearts.

Proverbs 21:2

Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.

God Bless.

 

[Root of Jesse]

"all have sinned" and fall short? So if Jesus was going to choose a leader of his Church, which one was worthy?" None of them.

Peter was an apostle, of the time a member of the twelve apostles. What is an apostle?

a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle, and yes Peter did that ... he preached the Gospel ... just like all the other apostles did. Jesus was the leader of all the apostles.

Jesus is the head of the church

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man (including Peter), and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Ephesians 1

22 And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the *church,

*
ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Usage: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
HELPS Word-studies
1577 ekklēsía(from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 2564 /kaléō, "to call") – properly, people called out from the world and to God, the outcome being the Church (the mystical body of Christ) – i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

[The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord" (kyrios). 1577 /ekklēsía ("church") is the root of the terms "ecclesiology" and "ecclesiastical."]

The called out ones transcends all church organizations/denominations, they are within them and also outside of them and all believers in Christ Jesus are His church.

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It's all about Jesus ... always has been ... always will be.

Is what I believe ... others may and do believe differently, that's fine ... each of us has a personal relationship with the Lord and only God knows the hearts.

Proverbs 21:2

Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.

God Bless.

So you're saying that Jesus didn't have very good judgement. I disagree. And I trust Jesus to provide a visible sign for his Church in every age.

 

[ewq1938]

In claiming that he loved Jesus, he repented. In asking Peter if he loved Jesus, Jesus forgave him.

Saying you love someone is not asking for forgiveness nor if you ask someone if they love you, are you saying you forgive them of something.

I don't know if he committed a sin, but he did pledge that he would die for Jesus, and then he denied even knowing him. He was covering his own butt.
Yours is a unique interpretation...

You just said it very closely as I believe it so I guess we share a unique interpretation. We disagree there was any repentance or forgiveness involved. I'm not willing to redefine "do you love me" into "I forgive you for denying that you knew who I was to save your life"

 

[ewq1938]

You like to emphasize the 'small', when it's not there.

Yes it's there.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter G4074, and upon this rock G4073 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

G4074
?e´t???
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

G4073
pe´t?a
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

It is clear that Peter was a rock, smaller than the mass of rock that Christ is building his church upon. Peter was part of the larger mass of rock, not the full rock of the church itself.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock G4073 was Christ.


G4073
pe´t?a
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Saying you love someone is not asking for forgiveness nor if you ask someone if they love you, are you saying you forgive them of something.



You just said it very closely as I believe it so I guess we share a unique interpretation. We disagree there was any repentance or forgiveness involved. I'm not willing to redefine "do you love me" into "I forgive you for denying that you knew who I was to save your life"

So you believe Jesus didn't forgive Peter? You believe Peter didn't repent? Loving Jesus requires repentance. Just sayin'.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes it's there.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter G4074, and upon this rock G4073 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

G4074
?e´t???
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

G4073
pe´t?a
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

It is clear that Peter was a rock, smaller than the mass of rock that Christ is building his church upon. Peter was part of the larger mass of rock, not the full rock of the church itself.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock G4073 was Christ.


G4073
pe´t?a
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

But Jesus named Simon bar Jona "Kepha" or "Cephas". Not Petros/petra.

 

[ewq1938]

So you believe Jesus didn't forgive Peter? You believe Peter didn't repent?

I'm saying the text does not convey either.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm saying the text does not convey either.

What's your authority to determine that?