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What did Jesus actually mean in Matthew 7:21-23?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ByTheSpirit, Jun 28, 2022.

  1. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Why do you think there are no Christians left when Jesus returns?
     
  2. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Interesting points my friend and I don’t disagree with you, provided I am comprehending your response correctly. It definitely is a warning to people of all shapes and sizes to ensure we are in the will of God in our teaching, in our practice, etc.
     
  3. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    I’ve mentioned this several times in other responses so I’ll keep this brief. I think 1 John 3:4-6 is absolutely key to understanding this passage. In context, Jesus is talking about false prophets and those who would lead others astray and that’s even more reason to read 1 John 3:4-6 in light of this. Key words that parallel in both passages, lawlessness and know/knew.

    Basically, workers of lawlessness is referencing those who live in sin (and quite possibly teach others to do so as well) and I never knew you is confirmation of that, for unless a person forsakes their sinfulness they were never converted and thus never known by God.
     
  4. Let's go

    Let's go New Member

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    So original post......anything outside the fathers will is sin. Is that coming short of the Glory of God....so we all fail until Christ came along
     
  5. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps. To me, I think you're describing the seeds that fell among the thorns, in the parable of the sower and the seed. Those seeds did take root and grow for a while, meaning to me that Jesus knew them. But the thorns eventually overwhelmed them and they bore no fruit.
     
  6. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    What is Jesus actually saying. I believe He is saying that people thought they were acquiring their eternal life by actions they were doing.

    But as Jesus states they had not done the will of The Father and were not known by God (Jesus,Father,Holy Spirit). So what is the will of The Father.

    And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
     
  7. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    For this is the will of God, your sanctification 1 Thessalonians 4:3

    I think when Jesus references "only those who do the will of the Father" is referencing how we should live as children of God. As I've said a couple times now, He calls these people "workers of lawlessness" and that "He never knew them". Using 1 John 3:4-6 as the key to unlock this passage, lawlessness is sin, and those who live in sin never know God.

    So it certainly is true that they never believed in Jesus, for true belief in Jesus will lead to holiness.
     
  8. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    There can not be a true or false belief. A person either believes or they do not.

    I guess there could be people who think they are believing. But actually their belief is in themselves and actions/works they are doing. So in a way like these workers of lawlessness, their belief is not in the correct object (The Messiah) but instead in their works, done in the name of The Messiah.

    There are believers who do not live up to the ideal standards set by The Messiah for a believer to live up to.

    But it simply can not be said that true belief will lead to holiness. The parable of the soils shows that. In actuality, that parable only has one soil that really exhibits holy living and bears fruit. The other two soils (believers) produce nothing.
     
  9. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Are you so sure that the parable of the sower is describing multiple kinds of believers? Or is it more 3 types of unbelievers and only 1 kind of believer?

    Jesus said Abide in Me and you will bear much fruit. If you do not abide in Me, you will not bear fruit and thus you will be cast into the fire as a worthless branch.

    Only one of the four in the parable of the sower bore fruit. The other three were fruitless.

    Can someone who does not abide in Jesus be a believer? I say no.
     
  10. Matt5

    Matt5 Answer the question before the lecture.

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    Does Jesus come before or after the Mark of the Beast?

    If he comes after, then how can Christians be waiting around for him? They're either dead or became ex-Christians by taking the Mark. Who is left?

    Of course, there are some token number of Christians hiding out in the wilderness. I'm ignoring them because their number is small.
     
  11. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Well Jesus said in Matthew 24 that he would send his angels to gather his elect at his return, so he thinks there will be believers left when he returns after the tribulation.

    Paul teaches in a couple of places that those who are alive and remain, not having fallen asleep (reference to death) will be changed at the return of Jesus, so again an implication that there will be believers when that time comes.
     
  12. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    I am afraid that whatever a human does because he is commanded/ordered to do it is important in serving the material world only.
    On the other hand, living God's Unconditional Love towards all others that opposes one's instincts of survival (for example {Matthew 5:44-45}), selfishness (for example {Luke 14:26}) and superiority (for example {John 5:44}) to name a few, feeds one's soul with the growing Joy of God's Realm of Love; a joy which is not bounded by time or space... not bounded by the flesh, alive or dead.

    If a human has no choice but being guided by his natural instincts (God's instructions embedded in his flesh, at it is the case in all other living things), he was simply created to be of this world and serve it in one way or another (in times of wars and/or so-called peace).

    But, if it happens that a human feels better whenever he opposes his instincts of selfishness and ignores his worldly rights in order to live God's Unconditional Love on earth as it is in Heaven towards whoever he may meet (a friend, stranger or even an enemy) he is no more of this world.

    Conclusion:
    The main practical difference among humans, speaking spiritually, is simply 'being or not being' of this world. There are those who live by a law, said of man or Heaven (as in today's Judaism, Islam, Paganism and the like) and those who are real free and, therefore, can live God's Unconditional Love, as revealed and lived by Jesus.

    Who has ears will hear.
    Cheers,
    Kerim
     
  13. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    So which is it belief in The Messiah that gives Eternal Life or abiding in The Messiah that gives Eternal Life, because they are not the same.

    If it is abiding in The Messiah, there should be verses stating this.
     
  14. Matt5

    Matt5 Answer the question before the lecture.

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    "Of course, there are some token number of Christians hiding out in the wilderness. I'm ignoring them because their number is small."

    I guess you didn't like the way I said that.

    Do you think Matthew 7:21-23 is talking about the Christians you reference - the special ones? The ones hiding out in the wilderness. They don't take the Mark, don't worship the beast, are important enough for angels to gather them up, but they're still bad guys that Jesus wants to reject?
     
  15. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    I think it's necessary to establish what true faith is.

    Faith is not just agreement with a stated set of facts or opinions. It goes beyond that to action.

    Imagine someone inside a burning building. I'm standing outside yelling at them, hey the building you are in is one fire, you should get out now while you have time! If they just say, yeah I agree with you but don't move, what good does that do them? Faith in the message is shown by action.

    What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jas 2:14.

    Saving faith in Jesus is evidenced by the things that we do. Jesus Himself said that you would know a tree by it's fruit. It's actually in the passage my OP is from. The Lord said:

    Those who abide in Me will bear much fruit
    Those who do not abide in me are thrown into the fire

    So again, those who bear fruit show where their faith is and thus can lay claim to being children of God. Those who only claim Jesus, yet have no fruit to show their faith, their faith is worthless and dead. And dead faith is not saving faith.
     
  16. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Jesus rejects those who are "workers of lawlessness". That is his statement on who he will reject, not mine. Comparing the passages together, the workers of lawlessness will likely either:
    a) receive the mark but think their works are enough to save them, thus they mention them trying to justify themselves
    b) have died before the Anti-Christ came to being and thus never were subjected to the Mark
    c) both a and b.

    I think the answer there can be c 100%

    But your number keeps moving, first you said no Christians, now it's there's some but they are small in number so not worth mentioning. Which is it?
     
  17. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    exactly, anything not of the Father's Will is sin. Probably the most basic definition of sin, but it works. And yes, until Christ came, we all fell short of that. Now that Christ has come, His death freed all who believe from the power or sin and the slavery it held us under.
     
  18. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    So you establish whether people are believers, not on if they have trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. But on if a person bears fruit.

    So i can see, how you can not see that the parable of the soils. Which has three types of believers as its focus, and is showing the 3 types of believers that may exist in christianity.

    Not as examples of fruit bearing (from a believer bearing no fruit soil 2 to a believer who bears much fruit soil 4), but rather as an example of a, as you say true believer (4th soil), two false believers 3rd and 2nd soil and a non believer 1st soil.

    So if that is the case why would one of the accounts of the parable of the soil state this.
    Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

    The parable states the 2nd soil believed and verse 12 states that a soil believes and is saved. Where is it stated anywhere in this parable, that the object is about false believers. The emphasis of this parable is on fruit bearing and the types of fruit bearing believers (2nd, 3rd and 4th soils).

    That it is true, not all believers will bear fruit and some, as the 2nd soil exhibits, may even fall away from the faith.
     
  19. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Is salvation free? I'd say no. You bet ya it costs something, it costs us giving up our former way of life, carrying our cross everyday. That's by no means free. Even Jesus said people should count the cost of it's worth it to follow Him.
     
  20. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
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