What did Hitler and Napoleon have in common?

black.hawk

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Both Hitler and his predecessor made the fundamental mistake of attacking Russia, which is way too large and strong to be defeated.

Rather than attack Russia they should have invaded Africa, Middle East, and India etc.

This would have provided sufficient material resources - i.e. Oil, gas, gold, copper, zinc, iron ore, and uranium etc - to make them the most preeminent power on the face of the earth - Since the Nonwhite countries do not have the means to retaliate as Russia did.

Discuss.
 

grasping the after wind

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Both Hitler and his predecessor made the fundamental mistake of attacking Russia, which is way too large and strong to be defeated.

Rather than attack Russia they should have invaded Africa, Middle East, and India etc.

This would have provided sufficient material resources - i.e. Oil, gas, gold, copper, zinc, iron ore, and uranium etc - to make them the most preeminent power on the face of the earth - Since the Nonwhite countries do not have the means to retaliate as Russia did.

Discuss.


Japan defeated Russia in 1905. So I f guess your whole premise is flawed.
 
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grasping the after wind

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What Napoleon and Hitler had in common was they were overconfident totalitarian authoritarians who were had delusions of grandeur and considered themselves to be military geniuses. Napoleon, however, at least had some evidence to give credence for his coming to that conclusion about himself.
 
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black.hawk

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Perhaps you meant conquered rather than defeated? Even then Russia was conquered by the Tartars in the 13th Century so once again your premise is flawed.
No modern army has ever conquered Russia.
 
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black.hawk

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What Napoleon and Hitler had in common was they were overconfident totalitarian authoritarians who were had delusions of grandeur and considered themselves to be military geniuses. Napoleon, however, at least had some evidence to give credence for his coming to that conclusion about himself.
Napoleon's magnus opum achievement is arguably the Battle of Austerlitz in 1805, which ranks alongside Cannae and Gaugamela etc.
 
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black.hawk

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World War one didn't end well for Russia either. :wave:
tulc(is just sayn') :sorry:
Which is inevitable when you have 2 major powers who go toe to toe.

At least, the Treaty of Tehran and Yalta provided significant territorial concessions to the USSR, notwithstanding the scale of death and destruction wrought by Nazi Germany.
 
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tulc

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Which is inevitable when you have 2 major powers who go toe to toe.

At least, Treaty of Tehran and Yalta provided significant territorial concessions to the USSR, notwithstanding the scale of death and destruction by Nazi Germany.
On the other hand Hitler wouldn't have been nearly as successful in the beginning of the war if the USSR hadn't been something of an ally of his then, would he? :scratch:
tulc(more of a WW1 guy then WW2) :sorry:
 
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black.hawk

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On the other hand Hitler wouldn't have been nearly as successful in the beginning of the war if the USSR hadn't been something of an ally of his then, would he? :scratch:
tulc(more of a WW1 guy then WW2) :sorry:
The Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact in August 1939 was crucial to the initial successes of the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe at the outbreak of WWII in September 1939.

Since the Germans couldn't possibly win a war on two fronts in the initial stage of the conflict. So, Hitler needed to forestall Soviet aggression in the East in order to take on England and France in 1940.
 
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Babe Ruth

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Hitler made the fundamental mistake of attacking Russia..
Discuss.

Blackhawk, hi..
It was a fundamental strategic mistake for the Germans to take on a 2-front war.
But in the Nazi world view, it was a fundamental necessity to fight Marxist Russia.. They were essentially waging a jihad against Marxism, and ultimately bit off more than they could chew..

My point, Nazi's passionate hatred of Marxism outweighed a passion to wage a conservative/cautious war..
 
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grasping the after wind

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No modern army has ever conquered Russia.

Or Switzerland or Peru or China or the UK or the United States etc.. And no modern army has even defeated some of those never mind conquering them, while Japan ( one of those "non white countries" ) defeated Russia in 1905. I may be missing some , but I can think of no other European power that has been defeated on their home territory by a non European modern army. And of course they also lost the Cold War as well as the Afghanistan conflict.
 
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lismore

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Both Hitler and his predecessor made the fundamental mistake of attacking Russia, which is way too large and strong to be defeated.

Rather than attack Russia they should have invaded Africa, Middle East, and India etc.

This would have provided sufficient material resources - i.e. Oil, gas, gold, copper, zinc, iron ore, and uranium etc - to make them the most preeminent power on the face of the earth - Since the Nonwhite countries do not have the means to retaliate as Russia did.

Discuss.

Hello black hawk. Many invaders have taken out Russia, The Golden Horde for example.

Hitler/ Napoleon made the mistake of fighting a two front war. Napoleon had hundreds of thousands of troops fighting a bloody war in Spain at the same time as invading Russia. Hitler was involved in the Balkans/ North Africa at the same time as attacking Russia, soon he would have a front in Italy and in France too. God Bless :)
 
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Francis Drake

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Hitler is universally regarded as an incredibly evil and murderous tyrant.
Hitler memorials, statues, regalia etc. are illegal in his home country and unwanted elsewhere.

In complete contrast, the other incredibly evil and murderous tyrant, Napoleon Bonaparte, is regarded as a wonderful French hero with statues and street names everywhere.

Both were murderous evil tyrants.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The point of Napoleon's invasion of Egypt was just such a strategy you proposed. He was planning to overthrow the Ottomans and perhaps push on to India, thus threatening Britain's chief possession and perhaps forcing them to quit the war. The fact that Nelson destroyed his fleet, put an end to that attempt. Thereafter, once the Directorate and his Consulship had been wound up, and he declared himself Emperor, his goals were different. Peace had been made with Russia at Tilsit, but the long term future of Napoleonic Europe was shaky at best, so long as Britain kept undermining the Continental System and willing to spend their cash in new coalitions. Russia needed to be neutralised, and as far as Napoleon was concerned, it was a massive success. Borodino was a victory and Moscow burned. The problem came that the Russians didn't sue for terms, which was what Napoleon was trying to achieve. He was attempting to force Russia to accede to his requirements, not to conquer it. This was why his army wasn't set up for a long term occupation, and why the Russian destruction of the countryside was particularly effective once the campaign dragged on longer than expected. The Russians won because they didn't cut their losses and held out, which had never happened before. The Prussians and Austrians, even Russia itself, had always come to the table after a Napoleonic victory before. This was his mistake.

Hitler did set out to conquer Russia. He failed because he constantly changed his objectives, first Moscow, then Leningrad, then Moscow, etc. and alienated groups that were his natural allies, like the Ukrainians, by racialist policies. Germany in WWI very nearly dismantled much of the eastern part of the old Tsarist empire by pandering to local sensibilities.
The Nazis could have won, if they had continued to attack Moscow and thus forve Stalin to flee. This would cut of aid arriving via Murmansk and made the fall of Leningrad only a matter of time. If they pandered to Ukrainians or Tatars in the South, they could form puppet states like Slovakia or Croatia, that could hold that line, up until they could drive for the Caucasus oil fields.
A drive through the Middle East was impractical. Firstly, they would need Turkish support or conquer Turkey. This would be unlikely or expensive to cross the Anatolian highlands. While they did have arab allies and a potentially helpful uprising in Iraq, their supply lines would be hopelessly stretched, and Britain could easily reinforce from India.
An attack via Egypt is also not feasible, as Germany struggled to supply Rommel, who himself nearly succeeded on this front. The problem is supplying troups over the mediterranean, especially when Malta was still in British hands. It simply made more sense to atrack Russia, who was anyway a looming threat - militarily, Ideologically and racially, to Nazi eyes. German control of Russian oil was also more economical to achieve, and if they held Russia, a drive down, bypassing Turkey or Persia, would also be in the cards.

Russia wasn't too strong to be defeated. The Nazis crushed them initially, and thanks to their own (or Hitler's meddling) inept handling of the campaign and silly policies towards natives, they failed. They could easily have won.
Napoleon did win. He just wasn't prepared for Russia not surrendering as everyone usually did, so he can also be excused somewhat. He should be castigated for not attempting a more orderly withdrawal though, and leaving so much to Ney. If he had, he could probably have kept his fortunes in Europe, and in the long run, the Russian serf state would not have kept up resistance indefinitely.

Russia has been conquered by land war - the Mongols did it and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth managed most of European Russia. The Russian Civil War saw white Russian forces with foreign support control great swathes. That is my two cents on this topic.
 
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Hitler is universally regarded as an incredibly evil and murderous tyrant.
Hitler memorials, statues, regalia etc. are illegal in his home country and unwanted elsewhere.

In complete contrast, the other incredibly evil and murderous tyrant, Napoleon Bonaparte, is regarded as a wonderful French hero with statues and street names everywhere.

Both were murderous evil tyrants.
There is a big difference between Napoleon and Hitler. Napoleon never tried to commit genocide, organised the Napoleonic code, and tried to rule as an Enlightened Despot. He was considered quite a 'bad man' by English historians prior to WWII, but a comparison of Hitler to Napoleon would only be in Napoleon's favour. The 'bad' things Napoleon did are greatly diminshed in such a juxtaposition. This is why the French love Napoleon. He was never bad for France, only for everyone else. This is why they flocked to his banner in the hundred days, and why his Nephew managed to claw back a throne for himself on Napoleon's coattails.
Hitler did good things for Germany, like getting them out of the Depression, but the price was the Gestapo, Racial laws, propaganda, Genocide and a ruinous war. Thereafter, thanks to the Holocaust and such, he was completely persona non grata.

French love for Napoleon is quite understandable, as is current German dislike for Hitler. In the long run though, as memories fade, later Germans may rehabilitate Hitler a little bit, but he would never be able to be a German hero - while Napoleon never really ceased being a French one.
 
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