what defines idolatry?

[Landon Caeli]

I came across an interesting thread where the concept of idolatry was compared to the standing up and reciting of the national anthem. It was agreed that standing and reciting the anthem was just outside the border of idolatry but it got me thinking about what exactly idolatry is. So what is it, what are its boundries, how do we define it and how do we recognize it.

My personal definition was that for something to be considered idolatry, it must involve involve the:

• Divine
• Ecclesiastical
• Supernatural

...I also said that it would possibly have to be extraterrestrial in origin. So that's 3 but possibly 4 attributes of TRUE idolatry.

Any thoughts?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Idolatry is all of the above, but goes much further. When ever a person puts something before God that interferes with being faithful, or interfering with a faithful life, that is idolatry.

I see some of the biggest forms of Idolatry presently being self-centredness, obsession with politics, addictions of all kinds (substances, psycological, sexual etc.), wealth, consumerism... and the list goes on.

Anything that displaces God and our faith in our lives is Idolatry.

 

[Inkfingers]

Idolatry is quite simple; it is when you believe that power rests ultimately in the creation rather than the creator.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Idolatry is quite simple; it is when you believe that power rests ultimately in the creation rather than the creator.

To me, that sounds like paganism, which is seperate from idolatry, because idolatry would require an ecclesiastical aspect to that creation. It would need to be viewed as divine in nature.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Idolatry is all of the above, but goes much further. When ever a person puts something before God that interferes with being faithful, or interfering with a faithful life, that is idolatry.

I see some of the biggest forms of Idolatry presently being self-centredness, obsession with politics, addictions of all kinds (substances, psycological, sexual etc.), wealth, consumerism... and the list goes on.

Anything that displaces God and our faith in our lives is Idolatry.

Are you sure that displacing God within the order of our priorities is not just typical sinful behavior..? Because idolatry is a very specific charge. Biblically, it required reverance to a material object that not only displaced God, but fully *rejected* him in his divinity.

 

[Landon Caeli]

For instance, we can't charge someone with idolatry for playing with their phone when that time could have been better spent in prayer... This is why it's important to have a true definition of idolatry rather than throwing it around so freely. It should be a specific thing, easily defined.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I like Mark's definition.

I'm not sure, but I get the sense that "idolatry" originally as a concept from God may have had a very specific intent - the setting up of something as a replacement for God. The golden calf, the carved idols, Moloch being given sacrifices of children.

But just as Christ explained to us that to lust was the same as adultery, to hate the same as murder, I think if we pursue conforming our minds to Christ, we begin to see ever-finer distinctions, and we learn that any of our selfish inclinations can potentially become idols. The grossness of our idolatry can vary between something we should be able to easily recognize, like dropping out of Church permanently to watch a Sunday TV show or go fishing, or as we are further refined by God, we might learn to see very fine distinctions and instances of putting things before God, and hopefully repent of them.

That does present a problem when "charging someone with idolatry" because we are not the Holy Spirit. Some things are obvious enough and ought to be a matter of training for babes in Christ, even, but who are you proposing be the spiritual authority over whom in various cases? There is a right answer in each case, but it is not something to be assumed by just anyone.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Btw, as regards the National Anthem - I think as in the case of many things, the answer is "it depends". If one's heart is primarily focused on patriotism, above God, then that patriotism is an idol. But God does not disallow us giving honor in an appropriate sense. There would be nothing wrong with appropriately honoring an earthly king we met, or the patriarch of one's family, or anything worthy of honor. But we never, ever worship such persons, ideas, or things, and we should never allow them to displace God.

I don't think it's possible to pass judgement on whether or not a stadium full of people singing the National Anthem are committing idolatry or not. Some of them very well may be, while those standing next to them, not at all. Only God knows. That is why He is the judge.

 

[com7fy8]

An act of worshiping an idol will have associated spiritual things going on inside a person. That inner stuff is part of the idolatry, though you can not see it. And that idolatrous stuff inside a person can be present, spiritually and emotionally, even while the person might not be outwardly worshiping the idol. It involves choosing what is not God, and putting that above God. So, it is idolatry spiritually; and the degradation of this can continue in one's personality while the person is not actively worshiping the object.

You may not be able to identify and define spiritual level of idolatry, but it is there, and the evil spirit of it is there > Ephesians 2:2. And it has a person put an object ahead of God; so this is why ones say that an idol is anything we put ahead of God. If we favor anything, in our hearts, more than we favor God, this is idolatry spiritually.

 

[Landon Caeli]

But just as Christ explained to us that to lust was the same as adultery, to hate the same as murder, I think if we pursue conforming our minds to Christ, we begin to see ever-finer distinctions, and we learn that any of our selfish inclinations can potentially become idols. The grossness of our idolatry can vary between something we should be able to easily recognize, like dropping out of Church permanently to watch a Sunday TV show or go fishing, or as we are further refined by God, we might learn to see very fine distinctions and instances of putting things before God, and hopefully repent of them.

But even still, if to lust is commit adultery, and to wish death is the same as murder -then one is required to have actually thought sexual thoughts, or imagined jabbing that knife into the other person or hoping they get run over by a train...

So with idolatry, one has to actually worship and praise that TV show or fishing experience, as divine in nature, and it has to actually replace God, with his divinity, mentally in their mind to the point that it is now thought of as divine. Right?

...otherwise it's not idolatry. In the same way, noticing that another person is beautiful is not adultery -unless they think lustful thoughts. Being angry with a person is not the same as wishing death to them.

 

[com7fy8]

But just as Christ explained to us that to lust was the same as adultery, to hate the same as murder, I think if we pursue conforming our minds to Christ, we begin to see ever-finer distinctions, and we learn that any of our selfish inclinations can potentially become idols.

Yes, Jesus deals with how there can be sin in our hearts, by having the wrong desire or a wrong way of regarding another person. And so, I see that an idol can be in our heart, even if we never show an act of worshiping that idol, outwardly.

I think there can be what I call attention idols > something or someone who gets too much of our attention, instead of how God should have our attention.

In religion, this would be an issue, for example in the case of how ones devote to Mary > are they giving her the attention which is right, or is she is getting attention instead of people personally submitting to Jesus? And a measuring stick of this could be whether or not we are submitting to Jesus in His "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30), or are we instead giving our attention to what does not have us with Jesus in His leading and guiding in His rest for our souls? It might not be really Mary who is getting the attention, in the case of idolatrous devotion, though; but idolatrous devotees might be mainly concentrating on their actions and trusting in their actions.

 

[Landon Caeli]

An act of worshiping an idol will have associated spiritual things going on inside a person. That inner stuff is part of the idolatry, though you can not see it. And that idolatrous stuff inside a person can be present, spiritually and emotionally, even while the person might not be outwardly worshiping the idol. It involves choosing what is not God, and putting that above God. So, it is idolatry spiritually; and the degradation of this can continue in one's personality while the person is not actively worshiping the object.

You may not be able to identify and define spiritual level of idolatry, but it is there, and the evil spirit of it is there > Ephesians 2:2. And it has a person put an object ahead of God; so this is why ones say that an idol is anything we put ahead of God. If we favor anything, in our hearts, more than we favor God, this is idolatry spiritually.

I have to disagree, though your point was nicely stated. When we assume sin, where sin does not exist, we are causing unnecessary conflicts where no conflict exists.

We should be careful not to muddy up these lines where salvation is at stake.

For instance, is becoming upset with another person the same as murder? Is noticing someone elses beauty effectively lusting for them? Of course not. So then too, we should all understand that the grave sin of idolatry has special requirements too, and is not really so blurry.

 

[com7fy8]

I understand that there are love idols. Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46). So, if we love certain favorite people, but we do not love any and all people the way Jesus desires, then our favorite family people and friends could be love idols. By loving them and not learning how to love the way Jesus wants, we can be putting love idol people ahead of Jesus.

Also, there are people who adore their pets, but they do not love any and all people. And they can not handle relating with people in love, yet they can be very affectionate with animals. So, because they are not learning how to love any and all people, but are hiding with their pets, those pets could be love idols. Maybe they are kind of like comfort food, giving their owners a sort of non-nutritious comfort love; and so the pet love does not make them strong so they can do well in relating with various people.

This is a problem with any idol, basically, how in our relating with the idol we can make ourselves feel good, somehow, but we are not becoming strong against the cruel feelings and dictatorial emotions which can mess us. Only God's love is strong enough to win the battle to make us deeply and pleasantly quiet and have immunity so we can't be corrupted by evil things >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

God's love is all-loving and makes us strong so we can keep from being hurt or staying hurt (1 Peter 3:13), and His love with almighty power "casts out fear, because fear involves torment," we have in 1 John 4:17. So, if we seek comfort from what is less than God's love, this can help to keep us weak so we can keep on suffering in fears and their personality torments. And this can be a sort of idolatry, of depending on pleasures and pets and humans to make us feel better, instead of depending on God, Himself, to truly correct us (Hebrews 12:4-11) and strengthen our personality > Galatians 4:19, Ephesians 6:10, Ephesians 3:19.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But even still, if to lust is commit adultery, and to wish death is the same as murder -then one is required to have actually thought sexual thoughts, or imagined jabbing that knife into the other person or hoping they get run over by a train...

So with idolatry, one has to actually worship and praise that TV show or fishing experience, as divine in nature, and it has to actually replace God, with his divinity, mentally in their mind to the point that it is now thought of as divine. Right?

...otherwise it's not idolatry. In the same way, noticing that another person is beautiful is not adultery -unless they think lustful thoughts. Being angry with a person is not the same as wishing death to them.

You raise some very good points. I need to think about it, and perhaps with a clearer head, to see if I have an answer (I am recovering from medical procedure, and have limitations at present).

I am having trouble with the idea of anger not being the same as wishing death. That is certainly true. I should have said "hate" ... If I misspoke I believe I will edit my post.

Eta: no, I did say hate. Your post changed my meaning somewhat. And there is a very fine line, I am sure, of distinguishing between noticing beauty and lustful thoughts. I suspect a wise person would avert their gaze, rather than trying to "appreciate" without any hint at all of "desiring".

 

[Landon Caeli]

I understand that there are love idols. Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46). So, if we love certain favorite people, but we do not love any and all people the way Jesus desires, then our favorite family people and friends could be love idols. By loving them and not learning how to love the way Jesus wants, we can be putting love idol people ahead of Jesus.

Also, there are people who adore their pets, but they do not love any and all people. And they can not handle relating with people in love, yet they can be very affectionate with animals. So, because they are not learning how to love any and all people, but are hiding with their pets, those pets could be love idols. Maybe they are kind of like comfort food, giving their owners a sort of non-nutritious comfort love; and so the pet love does not make them strong so they can do well in relating with various people.

This is a problem with any idol, basically, how in our relating with the idol we can make ourselves feel good, somehow, but we are not becoming strong against the cruel feelings and dictatorial emotions which can mess us. Only God's love is strong enough to win the battle to make us deeply and pleasantly quiet and have immunity so we can't be corrupted by evil things >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

God's love is all-loving and makes us strong so we can keep from being hurt or staying hurt (1 Peter 3:13), and His love with almighty power "casts out fear, because fear involves torment," we have in 1 John 4:17. So, if we seek comfort from what is less than God's love, this can help to keep us weak so we can keep on suffering in fears and their personality torments. And this can be a sort of idolatry, of depending on pleasures and pets and humans to make us feel better, instead of depending on God, Himself, to truly correct us (Hebrews 12:4-11) and strengthen our personality > Galatians 4:19, Ephesians 6:10, Ephesians 3:19.

But now, you are distancing yourself from the true meaning of Idolatry and entering the zone of personal interpretations.

Yes, we must have faith in the Father, Son and H.S. but "focus" points change from minute to minute. We don't think about Jesus 24 hrs. A day because we need to survive, we need fellowship with others, we have to get dressed, etc.

As long as one has faith in God as solely divine and worthy of worship as the one true God, then Idolatry, by definition, is not taking place. Regardless of what he focuses on from time to time. Right?

 

[com7fy8]

For instance, is becoming upset with another person the same as murder? Is noticing someone elses beauty effectively lusting for them? Of course not. So then too, we should all understand that the grave sin of idolatry has special requirements too, and is not really so blurry.

It can be the earlier stages of what could then become all-out idolatry. So, it could be early-stage.

Flicking the match is not the bonfire, but it is what could produce a bonfire. Also, it is not doing what prevents a fire. And it is not drinking water, which the person could need to be doing, instead.

Like this, if someone is feeding on being upset with somebody, this can be in the wrong direction, from how we need to feed on Jesus and how He has us loving. So, the being upset could be an early stage of what could lead to murder, plus it could degrade us from how we can become in God's love.

Also, our Apostle Paul does say, "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (in 1 Corinthians 6:12) So, Paul understands, I understand , that it is wrong for us to be under the power of anything or anyone less than God and His love. So, if someone does something and I get hot under the collar about it, what is it that the person effected, which could get me under the power of what happens to that thing?? That could be something that I am depending on more than I depend on God.

Likewise, feeding on how women look can help to keep my attention away from Jesus and how He would have me first caring in prayer of blessing for the lady, instead of using her only to look or gawk at her. So, my looking can be early stage cooking. Love does not have me only using people, including using women to look at them instead of first caring for them.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

 

[Landon Caeli]

Quite frankly, if idolatry is what some say it is, then everytime we comb our hair, or groom ourselves, we are guilty of the sin of idolatry, or at least have succumb to the early stages of it -because we have removed our focus away from God and have replaced that focus upon ourselves...

...This is why it is important to know the definition of idolatry, and how to truly recognize it, and to understand it's limits.

 

[com7fy8]

As long as one has faith in God as divine and worthy of worship as the one true God, then Idolatry, by definition, is not taking place. Regardless of what he focuses on from time to time. Right?

By your definition, right!!

But we have Ephesians 5:21 >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

I think "in the fear of God" means with our attention and submission to God, while we are relating, so He in us is guiding how we relate. And, like this, all we do can be with our attention to submitting to how God has us doing things.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, if He wants me to wear clothes, He can with me guide me as to when and what to wear. But isn't this being a puppet? Doesn't God leave us to handle things on our own until we need His help?

Well, why be on time out from sharing with God in His love with His creativity shared with us? While we submit our less important activities to His personal guiding, this can help us to grow and develop in being able to be personally guided by God . . . so that in bigger matters we already have the ability to submit to Him, efficiently, so we are guided reliably, including about whom we trust and how to trust each person.

 

[com7fy8]

Quite frankly, if idolatry is what some say it is, then everytime we comb our hair, or groom ourselves, we are guilty of the sin of idolatry -because we have removed our focus away from God and have replaced that focus upon ourselves...

Well, you have correctly understood what ones of us are saying. So, you are clear so you are disagreeing more or less with what we do mean, instead of twisting it totally into what we do not mean.

Now, there is a difference between knowingly worshiping an idol, versus slipping our attention and focus away from God and taking things into our own hands. One is committed idolatry, while the other can be unintentional and we then more or less quickly get back on track with the LORD and how He is personally ruling and guiding us in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

I would say that in order to constantly be personally ruled by our Father in His peace, we need to constantly be sensitive and attentive to Him. But is this possible????

Well . . . even in human activities, you can do mundane things while focusing on someone you love. For a more practical example > I can be tipping my lady friend's kitty litter box and fishing out all the poo-poos and pee-pee clumps of clay, while at the same time enjoying her and also talking with her about how to do it, and listening to what she says.

Like this, we can constantly be in love and communication with God, and even discovering how He has us doing things we already supposed we were experts at doing. Very often, I keep discovering how creativity comes to have me doing even some simple thing better than I knew it could be done. And certainly I always need how He feeds-in to how I relate with people!!!! I do not need to only learn "skills" for getting people to see me the way I want them to see me and do what I want.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

This is another thing: we need to not be helping people to make us idols. We need to be "examples" of how they also can be blessed, so they are not merely putting us up too high. I need to encourage my lady friend to pray and do things however God has her do them . . . not to glorify how I might be convinced she should do things. Who and what we glorify can be an idol, whether we consciously see it to be one, or not.

 

[com7fy8]

I am having trouble with the idea of anger not being the same as wishing death. That is certainly true. I should have said "hate" ... If I misspoke I believe I will edit my post.

I think Jesus did say that if you have anger in your heart against someone, this can be murder > Matthew 5:21-22. It depends on the nature of the anger. What Jesus meant, in that case, I would say, is anger which is the same as hate.

But I would say that not all anger is hateful. There is caring anger. Jesus was very angry with the people who did not want Him to heal on the Sabbath. But we know Jesus loves and has hope for any and all people. So, His anger was directed mainly against their hypocrisy. He wanted that hypocrisy to die, yes, but He desires that all people come to know God and love.

So, yes, we could say, we want our own old man with his selfish and unloving ways to die. And we want other people's inner selfish person and nature to die, but that they become alive in God's love

God bless you with healing