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Featured What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Alithis, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +1,374
    New Zealand
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    Forgive me if I speak from my own experience, I have noted over the years that when folks come together in unity, the blessing comes which includes healing.
    Case in point a fellowship in the centre of Christchurch - open 24/7 for the inner city dwellers - we had folks there from all christian backgrounds around the table breaking bread. Jesus was spontaneously healing the desperate. A prostitutes room became our chapel. sometimes His grace fell with such effect that healings of the back could be physically heard.

    I am not coming with a message from theory - we got out there and did it learning while we did.

    Please hear my heart. There was a huge disconnect between what Jesus was doing with us and what was understood in the church. This was confirmed by the paster of the church I attended.

    Unquestionally our fruitfulness was because we had a foundation of unity and Love that created an atmosphere in which the gifts could operate. The 'least' were heard. The hard part was finding churches that would accept the raw converts coming into the Kingdom.

    I still feel that in general modern church structures employ a model that is not suited to the cutting edge of the kingdom. I love the church but it suffers from systems and structures unsuited to reaching the lost. The model in Acts I have referred to is much better suited for this purpose - maybe that is why He invented it.

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.
     
  2. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +12,576
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    There are strengths and weaknesses to both, and my opinion is that it's good to have both; larger gatherings and smaller; more formal and more informal; and so on. That way we can draw on the strengths of the different approaches and use all to edify.

    People in the congregation here call me by my first name without a title. The title is useful when dealing with people outside the church who need to know who I am in dealing with me, but inside the church it is seldom necessary or, indeed, used.
     
  3. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing wrong with showing due respect to whom respect is due. But I don't know any pastors who see it as "honorific" or something that exalts them. I have never seen a two-tiered system unless you get into the high church denominations. But even then, it is rare that the pastors ever see their role as exalted and tend to be far more humble and try to just be regular down-to-earth people.
     
  4. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

    +2,129
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    This is a more indepth reply but there is a thread through all of it which displays the error of churched leadership theology in contrast to the scriptures..
    All of the "examples" of leadership are only reinforcing the error
    Such leaders are considered good exampkes by what measure?
    The size of the congragations?
    The size of the buildings
    The glamour of the show..

    Instead of the example of the apostles we read about in scripture.. Because they had entered into true communion ..to eat of his life and drink of his cup.
    To go where he led and suffer as he suffered.
    Being a burden to none.
     
  5. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

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    It does need to be that way given that most people work 5 to 6 days a week and have families and responsibilities in those areas that they must attend to. There is nothing unreasonable about meeting on Sundays and there is much good historical precedent for it.

    You can't make a doctrine out that and hold it up as the model we should all be employing. The Bible doesn't make that case. It simply relates how they conducted themselves at that time. Life was different and we can't carbon copy that into our context. It simply doesn't work.
    That is not a "model" per se. The Bible sets up no particular model that is best. People work various shifts throughout the week. Some work graveyard or whatever. We also live much further away from each other, as well. I don't live in the same city I pastor in and I work as well. So meeting at various times is simply not possible. Most people find the current model the best for our modern context.
    But that is your choice. You can choose not to participate. But larger churches do have more to offer.

    But you could do that in any church model. You could simply come for the service and leave. That has nothing to do with a given church model, but one's willingness to serve.
     
  6. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

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    Don't strain at small things and overlook mercy judgement and Live amongst other important factors. Why does it matter so much if a congregation refers to the one that preaches as Pastor? It really doesn't.
     
  7. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,063
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    As practiced in the NT as in Acts the believers met at the temple courts and in their homes (Acts 2:46; 4:42).
    Agreed but whether your personal experience is representative of the whole is debatable.
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, just using the term pastor, reverend or father creates a two-tiered system as it plainly distinguishes a lay person from a member of the clergy. If we believe in the universal priesthood of all believers why don't we practice what we preach? After all, words do have meaning.
     
  9. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I never wrote nor implied that is unreasonable to meet on Sundays. You were the one who brought up the issue of people who have to work on Sundays. House churches can meet on Sundays or any other time of the week that is most convenient for them.

    Indeed it does but you choose to minimize it which is your prerogative. Doctrine is not only found on the pages of Scripture but it was modeled by the practices of the apostles. Believers are commanded to hold to the teachings and practices of the apostles.
    1 Corinthians 11:2
    I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15
    So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

    2 Thessalonians 3:6
    Now we command you, beloved, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us.

    Philippians 4:9
    Keep on doing the things that you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, and the God of peace will be with you.

    The model of the big tent meeting on Sunday only as you point out does not fit for all people.

    More programs in a larger setting do not logically entail more learning or participation. In a Bible study or house church, participation is facilitated by small group size.

    We teach new believers to be spectators and listen to the Sr. pastor teach when they first come though the doors of the building and then later on we expect them get involved. Problem is as the old adage goes 20% of the people do 80% of the work in the church. Go figure.
     
  10. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    True, but Acts 2:46 does not exclude weekly meetings either. We should absolutely gather as believers outside of Church services to grow closer as a Body, as well as to talk about God and His Word. This is what Bible studies, church socials, and even just casual gatherings among Christian friends are for. However, none of that means we shouldn't have organized meetings once a week.

    The NT model is a great model for how the church ought to behave, but that doesn't mean every church has to be small or meet in homes. The Early Church met in the way it did in part because it was so young and small, small enough to be viewed as a strange offshoot of Judaism that was allowed all the legal exceptions given to mainstream Judaism (at least for a little while).
    Furthermore, the Church was forced to meet in secret until the reign of Constantine. It was dangerous to meet in specifically designated buildings, so people met in houses, catacombs, etc. It's telling that pretty soon after Christianity was legalized in the Roman Empire, congregations began building churches because the risk of being found out was no longer present.

    Arguably, the problem with most megachurches is not the size, but that they tend to water-down or otherwise compromise on doctrine and the Gospel. There are active megachurches that preach a false gospel. The problem is not what they are doing but why they are doing it.
    I'd also like to point out that just because someone is not actively serving in their own congregation does not mean they are not actively serving in other ways, such as through Christian organizations not based in a particular church, but I digress.
     
  11. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    God made Solomon buid a Temple remember?
     
  12. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    With one exception, the house groups I have been to have tended to be a bit ingrown - I was accused once of spoiling an already established 'sense of community'. That is going to happen when someone new joins any group that's been going a bit. I always greeted people by name in the group. The exception was one that was being led by a chap who was in pastoral training - it was a bit more welcoming. I just feel these groups spoil it for folks who want to have fellowship at the Sunday service - because the home-groupers are focused on others in their groups, I think it changes the dynamic of fellowship in a church. It becomes less outgoing.
     
  13. dms1972

    dms1972 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I really am unsure if megachurches are a good thing, when for every megachurch there are dozens of smaller churches dying. I read recently in a communication I get from a christian ministry - that there are dozens and dozens of churches closing in America each year.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  14. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    May I ask who is "we" and "our"? Why are you speaking in plural?
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm speaking as a Lutheran.
     
  16. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    Ah
     
  17. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    It may not be accurate or wise to say a blanket statement that churches as a whole are under a curse of witchcraft. Yes some but not all.
     
  18. Natsumi Lam

    Natsumi Lam Preparer of the Bride Supporter

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    Being a PK, I have seen both too. I know my father puts in heart, soul and many hours of study and communion with God.
     
  19. Giacinta

    Giacinta New Member

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    Your idea will lead to anarchy and division, that's evil and are not what Lord Jesus wants either. Talking about corrupt...
     
  20. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    These crusader people forget that even Jesus in the Bible was called rabbi a few time and he accepted that designation!
     
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