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Featured What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Alithis, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. chilehed

    chilehed Veteran

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    I suggest that you take your own advice.

    You said "The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money", and characterized it as corrupt.

    If the system that supports the construction of church buildings is corrupt, then it's reasonable to conclude that you think that it shouldn't exist, which in turn means that there should be no church buildings.

    Which means we should all be standing out in the rain.

    As for the idea that Christ intended his Church to have no leaders, that's patently absurd. I suggest that you become more familiar with what Sacred Scripture actually says.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  2. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is the same with house groups, as with churches on Sunday. You need to find the one which is about worship and prayer and God's word. And with really Christian people I keep finding that no one can make it every time, and we understand this; because we all have real lives :)

    And while you are looking, you can get to know church people who are not interested so you can reach and share with them whenever you meet. But we Jesus people need to go to a church with example leadership so we can get God's word with each other and reach visitors. But we can meet others during the week, at work, shopping, and in the neighborhood.
     
  3. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "And on some have compassion, making a distinction;" (Jude 1:22)

    We would not do it in order to intimidate and henchman people into conforming. But if someone is making a major project of criticizing the leadership and church and doing it openly, and strategically doing things to interfere and promote one's own self > my opinion is the open rebuke would serve to notify the church that we are not going along with the person and the person does not represent the church, and to notify the person that we do not consider him or her to be representing Jesus. This would be more for someone who is in your face with trouble making. But someone in the back seat suffering because of sinning would be visited with a back seat quiet conversation, possibly.

    "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

    First, then, of course, would need to be our example; then, when we take on a wrong person, the person has already had opportunity to get to know our example so this already has been exposing how he or she is wrong.

    What you call personality disorder and how to minister to a troubled person can be a subject for another thread. It would depend on each person.

    In general, my opinion is we all need compassion, for our sin problems >

    "He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

    Any of us have personality disorder because of what we demand to have for our own selves, selfishly and unhumbly. Our ways of reacting to not getting our treasure pleasures can have any of us getting upset and downcast and nasty and acting more or less crazy. So, if we deny ourselves and take up our cross daily (Luke 9:23) and say no to dominating and controlling emotions for pleasures, this can help a lot; and get into how God's love is gentle and quiet >

    "rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

    God is not silent and distant, but quiet.

    So, we can trust God to make us deeply quiet in sharing with Him, and this is in His almighty spiritual and emotional soundness. So, we pray this for everyone. Only God is able to change any of us, like this. Treatments and talk therapy and medications can help someone get some control of oneself, but it is apparently well known by professionals how physical drugs and talking can not actually cure personality problems. This, I understand is because physical things can not cure our character to become like Jesus and make us all-loving (Matthew 5:46) like Christ on the cross >

    "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

    Many have not been dealing with this, and so ones have become deeply weak and unhealthy in other pursuits. But God is able to correct and cure any of us. Jesus suffered and died on the cross with hope for any and all of us to be saved and safe in His "rest for your souls" > Matthew 11:28-30.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That happened a long time ago in the Garden. Now we are just owning up to it.
     
  5. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    Sounds like you are paranoid.
    Judgemental and rediculous in reference to his statement
    No offense, but my priests would never mock or judge others so I've actually seen their fruits.

    Tell me how much of these arguments are based off of your real experience in these churches, or are you judging every Christian outside of your own (controversial) group without any real evidence to back it up? I've never met a pastor or priest who lord over their parish.

    1 Corinthians 4:15-17
    "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church."
     
  6. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

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    It doesn't matter how correct someone's theology is, if there is not Love nor proper righteous judgement, then it means nothing and is in vain. You're broadbrushing any and every Church congregation.
     
  7. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

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    "Love The Lord they God with all thy heart mind soul and strength and Love thy neighbor as thyself". Rather than berating and trying to take upon a system that you do not agree with, which I am not a part of as I get fully your point "the system" that you are trying to point out, how about you start looking at yourself first to see what needs to be cleansed from your own heart by the hand of Father Himself so that he can reach each bit of yourself with Jesus Christ so that you can actually begin to make a real life difference in bringing a revival of a true system without any corruption? Going online and ranting and racing about the things that displease and disgust you are not going to amount to a hill of beans and will only eat at you further and further, only to keep your focus on it rather than walking within the footsteps of Christ Jesus, living as He lived in a perfect relationship with Father and shining bright to the Lost world around drawing them to the Light. Any corruption within the Church will not be overthrown in a singular moment because you or anyone else is posting blogs on social media or making videos on Youtube complaining what they see as wrong. You have to become Like Jesus to make a difference and bring an upheaval.

    When Jesus spoke of the corruption within the Church system of His time, what took place? It was met with rejection. It was met with accusation towards Him. The upheaval did come, but the seed had to take root and sprout first.

    You my friend need to stop looking to upheaval the system and refocus your life. Start by setting all of this aside. Forget about it and go to the Father naked, wanting Him to equip you and give you a mission to make a genuine impact by the Word itself mingled with Love and proper judgement grounded in mercy and perfect Love be manifested from your heart. Starteating of the Flesh of Jesus and drinking of His blood. He will give you His will for your roll in this Kingdom if you stop pointing the finger at others and let him into the darkest places of your heart you still haven't given to Jesus.

    I speak this all from the experience. I too had a very passionate vendetta against "the System" you have now a while back and it wasn't out of a righteous heart like I had thought. I too used multiple scriptures, while absolutely true, to prove myself right, but I was in Hypocrisy. My worship was just as vain and unprofitable as the "system" I was condemning. If somebody had said what I said to, to me, my responses were exactly as yours being filled with pride and maliciousness. I felt genuinely justified, but was blockaded by my own poor judgement that was not in Love, but that of worldly hatred. My judgement was in pride, not in humility. This is the stage you are at right now.

    Either take my advice or don't, the choice belongs to yourself. If you don't, you are only going to be in a place that everyone hates you because of your behavior and condemnation. You will be in a continual place void of the Fruit of the Spirit and full of Fruit of the flesh both public and especially private. You will have no peace, no faith, no meekness, no wisdom, no proper judgement, and no Love.

    That one sin that keeps haunting you that you cannot overcome, The Lord sees it. That Lust in your heart that causes you to sin by what seems to be almost every other single night is going to keep derailing you and the time you spend on this website and on others like youtube, going to specefic videos with the intention to find arguments in order to point out the flaws in the system and teachings of the current Church, going through comment sections, arguing with whomever is stuck in something false so that you may justify your failings at night upon your bed when your all alone, if you do not take a step back and let Father take you on a journey of purging out every little but of yourself from you and replacing it with Jesus Christ. You will keep falling into that same exact sin if you do not take what I say.
     
  8. lsume

    lsume Our 3 year old grandson who turned 3 today Supporter

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    You must also be familiar with “confess your faults one to another...” and “not forsaking the assembling...”

    Heb.10

    1. [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    Jas.5
    1. [16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This appears that you are calling me corrupt because I served in churches without taking a salary. How did I turn to the hands of men? How did I display no faith?
     
  10. lsume

    lsume Our 3 year old grandson who turned 3 today Supporter

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    What anyone Heaven bound must come to understand is that only Christ is Lord. He makes captivity captive. In the Doing, His sheep only follow His Voice. His Voice is The Word. He must open the eyes and ears.
     
  11. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    H Alithis. By any chance, did you or your loved one have a negative experience in the church? You don't need to share the details if it is personal, but I am wondering if any of your own experience has influenced your scriptural interpretation to certain extent. You do present some convincing biblical arguments but I also know that sometimes our personal experience can interfere with objectivity. And most importantly, is there a definite answer to this subject? Or could it be relative: Maybe church is right for some people, and home church/ fellowship works better for others (?)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
  12. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Ok.
     
  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I agree in general that various factors contribute to the man-made traditions we practice today. However, I see no good reasons to disregard Paul's instructions to the church in 1 Cor 14. He stated "whenever you meet" which refers to the corporate gathering of the body which translates to today's Sunday worship service where everyone has a part to play. That is certainly not the case as the majority spectate in the Sunday worship service. This by necessity limits the number of people in any given congregation because as you point out the average number of 200 in an assembly mitigates against participation by everyone due to size alone. Thus instead of making our congregations larger and meeting at a central location, we should have focused on smaller groups of disciples meeting from "house to house" where all can learn to participate. That train has already left the station and won't be returning until persecution against the churches begins to happen. Moreover chapt. 14 describes a Spirit-led assembly where everyone uses their gifts to encourage each other thus strengthening the whole body. When is the last time you attended a congregation that in addition to singing and teaching - prophesied, spoke in tongues and interpreted by various individuals in the worship service instead of the central focus being the sermon delivered by the Sr. pastor as dictated by the order of service in the church bulletin instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit? That is how far we have strayed from the NT model.
     
  14. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    The ECLA is but one single denomination among who knows how many denominations in the USA, let alone the world. Are you claiming that all churches follow the ECLA model? Of course not - so your point is moot.

    From wikipedia - An honorific is a title that conveys esteem or respect for position or rank when used in addressing or referring to a person. Sometimes, the term "honorific" is used in a more specific sense to refer to an honorary academic title. It is also often conflated with systems of honorific speech in linguistics, which are grammatical or morphological ways of encoding the relative social status of speakers.
     
  15. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    If they don't exalt themselves, then why do they allow lay persons to refer to them by the title of pastor or reverend? Why doesn't everyone in your church just call them by their name without the title? Why don't you try it yourself and tell me what happens?

    I still visit churches occasionally but mostly attend a house church. I also graduated from seminary. No one calls me pastor.
     
  16. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    You neglect to remember that Jesus is God so he is the rabbi - big difference.
     
  17. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

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    In my church everyone is "brother" or "sister." I am a pastor and have never liked being called "pastor." Most pastors do not even require it. It is not an honorific title and I think you are projecting things onto churches and other people that just isn't true. There might be a few, but most of the time, everyone likes being called by their name.
     
  18. Justified112

    Justified112 Well-Known Member

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    Depending on where you live, meeting in homes could be impractical and would limit participation. There is no perfect model. Most people could make it to church as it is, but are often either working because they have no choice (nurses, police, fire, EMTs, Doctors) or because they are in retail and their employer can't let everyone off on Sunday.

    I don't know of a church where the size keeps people from participating. Most larger churches are starving for more people to step up and participate and use their skills for the Lord.

    If you read ancient Christian literature, sermons were preached and those sermons would last quite a while. Preaching a sermon goes back to the 2nd century, contemporary with the direct disciples of the Apostles of Jesus. Mostly, they preached and prayed and took communion.
    Justin Martyr: On Christian Worship - 150 A.D. (The Prayer Foundation)
     
  19. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you on that. However that is not the practice in all or even most churches in my opinion. I never liked being called "pastor" either when I was on full-time church staff but I had to accept it as I realized that it is just customary for people to do so. The problem in my mind though is that our practices should reflect our beliefs. In our orthodoxy we proclaim the priesthood of all believers but in our orthopraxy we distinguish between clergy and lay person by our practice of using titles which promulgates a two-tiered system. We don't intend to but that is the practical result.
     
  20. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    The meeting of the church need not take place just on Sundays or always in a building. Acts 2:46 "And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts," Acts 5:42 "And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus."
    The NT model is the perfect model because it is flexible in terms of meeting times as well as it allows people to participate since the smaller group size is dictated by the size of the house - usually small.
    In larger congregations, not to even mention mega-churches one can easily not participate. One could sit in the back seat sing along to the worship and listen to the preacher and just leave once the service is over. The fact that you note "most larger churches are starving for more people to step up...." demonstrates that most people don't but instead remain glued to the pews.
     
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