What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

[Strong in Him]

Your not allowed to

I'm not allowed to ...... what?

 

[☦Marius☦]

And there we have a big point..
They didnt start out that way...
But God never started instutions at all.
Men did that in thier corrupt motives.
And men appointed elders and bishops and priests and pastors and vicars and whatever OVER and dominate thier man made institutions ..

Why must we then be Forced to accept or believe they are anything to do with the body of christ simply because those ruling institutions say they are... While thier fruits display they are most certainly not

I was talking about the Jews. I've met several Orthodox Bishops and I do think their fruits display their authority. Never have I met more humble men. That's why we pick our Bishops from among the monks. First a person must learn to serve and be obedient and humble before he can pray for the entire church and lead.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think God's mission depends on the Church per se. God can raise up prophetic voices outside the Church when the Church fails, and I believe history since WWII has shown that, where the Church has mostly been on the wrong side of civil rights issues.

You might want to look into the Lutheran concept of vocation some time, just because I think there's a tendency in the Reformed/Anglican tradition to think of the Christian life as somehow being different from the regular business of raising families, building communities, stewardship of our resources, and so forth. Otherwise, if you emphasize the extraordinary too much, you can end up in a situation where your message actually becomes more of a scandal to the faithful.

My real issue with my church is how some congregations are not taking account of how vocation may look different now in the past, especially with changing patterns of living and just a general move to a post-Christian society. We are stuck in 1950's era spirituality when we need to be speaking more to younger people. Our church has the resources, especially in our hymnal and in our official liturgical texts, but some laity simply don't seem to feel the need to change much of anything to draw in a wider community.

I agree that the missio Dei doesn't depend on the Church, but the Church is called to participate in it, nonetheless.

I don't think it's a matter of emphasising the extraordinary too much, but saying that our "ordinary" ought to be aligned with proclamation, nurture, service, the pursuit of justice and so forth (the marks of mission).

And I agree that most churches are not dealing well with the emerging culture.

I did not think that the term "Episcopalian" could mean much else, other than perhaps the Scottish Episcopal Church. In the US, "Anglican" typically means either "Not those crazy Episcopalians" or "Church of England", BTW. It's not a term I usually use unless I'm not reffering to Episcopalians. At the cathedral I went to, they very rarely called themselves "Anglican".

I read "Episcopalian" as American-speak for the Anglican communion (as opposed to the breakaway groups). So I would think an American talking about Episcopalians in general would include the Anglican church where I am. Perhaps a problem of how we use language differently in different contexts...

 

[Justified112]

From where are you getting that information? My feeling is that a good number of pastors think otherwise. They will say they believe in the priesthood of all believers, even while enjoying their reasonable to high salaries, benefits, power, and comfy offices.

Which shows that you really don't know much about pastors. I am a pastor and I know a lot of pastors and have been a Christian for over 40 years. There are some bad apples out there, often they are in the mega-churches, which are not the norm, at all.

80% of churches across all denominations have 100 members or less and in many cases about half attend church regularly to their own job schedules or health issues. Those pastors don't even take a salary from their congregations and work a 40 hour week. I have to work. My congregation can't support me. I don't sit in an office and we are a small church. Most churches are quite small.

This overgeneralized view that pictures pastors as rich and living in wealth is simply not true. They have to juggle a family, a job and pastoral duties, pay bills/taxes and the balancing act is quite difficult.

So you should probably seek facts instead of relying on the false information being peddled by some of the people on this thread who simply don't know what they are talking about.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Thats the old ad hominem again .

The topic is about the theology of church leadership.

The scripture paints it as a servant hood placed Under the body to luft it and build it UP.
Not a roof dominating it and containing it

I don't think you can pull the ad hominem card out when you are generalizing all organized churches as murderous and unholy in order to brush over the actual biblical instructions for such authority.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Which shows that you really don't know much about pastors.

Okay. My knowledge of pastors comes from my having been a Christian for over 50 years, and a member of three churches, and an adherent of more. It also comes from my years at a Christian university and seminary. It also comes from my having served as an intern pastor, children's pastor, and social pastor.

I am a pastor and I know a lot of pastors and have been a Christian for over 40 years. There are some bad apples out there, often they are in the mega-churches, which are not the norm, at all.

80% of churches across all denominations have 100 members or less and in many cases about half attend church regularly to their own job schedules or health issues. Those pastors don't even take a salary from their congregations and work a 40 hour week. I have to work.
My congregation can't support me. I don't sit in an office and we are a small church. Most churches are quite small.

The smallest church I've ever been in had under 20 members. Even there, due to denominational support, the pastor was drawing a good salary.

They have to juggle a family, a job and pastoral duties, pay bills/taxes and the balancing act is quite difficult.

As do most people - have to juggle a family, job, pay bills/taxes.

 

[Strong in Him]

God does not inhabit a temple made by mans hands.
Dont knock me. Its God that said so.

Yet it was God who told Solomon to build the temple. Solomon dedicated the temple with many offerings and a prayer of praise.
Sacrifices were offered in the temple and feasts were celebrated there, for centuries. When the temple was destroyed, Nehemiah was commanded to build another one.
Ezekiel spoke of God's glory leaving the temple, but also of his glory returning to the temple. Jesus went to the temple and the synagogues.

Many people have built churches and cathedrals "to the glory of God", and in many, God centred worship takes place.
Personally I can't get interested in buildings; there is a danger that people worship them, and what goes on in them, instead of God.
But that is not at all the same as saying that the whole system is corrupt and God is not in it. In times of national/local tragedy, the church building, for many, represents hope, stability, comfort.
You may not think that should be the case, but it is. Look at how many started going to church after Princess Diana died. When there was the fire in Grenfell tower in London, many started using, and attending, the local Methodist church - even Muslims. I know this because I know the Minister and heard him speak about it recently.

 

[Justified112]

I rejoice with those who rejoice so if you are seeing fruit that's great.

If you dont see the need to review the traditonal structures then that's fine.

Back in the 80's the budgets of a major denomination in one city where compared to the conversion growth and it was around $ 1 Million for each convert.

If there is a healthy loving community supporting ministries there will be no needs unmet.

Yes we do need to return to the biblical unity that comes from a healthy loving community, rather than institutional management - He commands a blessing on unity.

I have seen over the years that when ever there is a return to the unity we read of in Acts, healing breaks out.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

There is incredible unity across the board, today. Needs will always be present and we cannot say that no needs will be unmet. There are needs that churches cannot meet, and were never tasked with God to meet. The church will never end poverty, sadly. But the church was not tasked by God to do that. We help the poor, but we cannot end poverty.

I see unity all of the time in many communities around the world. I think we need to drop this attitude that constantly criticizing the modern Church is somehow in vogue. It seems to be false tag of spirituality to condemn the modern Church.

Healings didn't spring from unity in the early church. The miracles were the result of God confirming the preaching of the apostles with signs and wonders. This was necessary to establish the authority of the apostles as men who were sent by God. It was not at all dissimilar to the miracles that happened in the days of the prophets to confirm their authority as God's mouthpieces.

I am not sure what you mean about the history of church structure, but if you want us to return to the book of Acts, I don't think you have thought that through, very well.

 

[Justified112]

Okay. My knowledge of pastors comes from my having been a Christian for over 50 years, and a member of three churches, and an adherent of more. It also comes from my years at a Christian university and seminary. It also comes from my having served as an intern pastor, children's pastor, and social pastor.

And yet, strangely, your initial appeal was what others on this board think is true. If what you say is true, then you should know that what I have said is true, regarding pastors of small churches.

The smallest church I've ever been in had under 20 members. Even there, due to denominational support, the pastor was drawing a good salary.

You can find exceptions to the rule, but exceptions to the rule, don't negate the rule. Most pastors in small churches, at least the ones in the US, are working 40 hours a week.

As do most people - have to juggle a family, job, pay bills/taxes.

But for some reason people, on this thread, think that pastors are supposed to live in on air. If a pastor draws a good salary, he is somehow, "corrupt."

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

And yet, strangely, your initial appeal was what others on this board think is true. If what you say is true, then you should know that what I have said is true, regarding pastors of small churches.


You can find exceptions to the rule, but exceptions to the rule, don't negate the rule. Most pastors in small churches, at least the ones in the US, are working 40 hours a week.

But for some reason people, on this thread, think that pastors are supposed to live in on air. If a pastor draws a good salary, he is somehow, "corrupt."

In my mind, pastors should make about the same salary as the majority of their congregants do. Such is not the case at my home church, where the pastor has an upper class salary and lives in his own house with his family, while the majority of congregants are lower class and live in subsidized government apartments.

 

[Justified112]

In my mind, pastors should make about the same salary as the majority of their congregants do. Such is not the case at my home church, where the pastor has an upper class salary and lives in his own house with his family, while the majority of congregants are lower class and live in subsidized government apartments.

Pastors need to make enough money to raise their families. You can't base a salary on what the congregation brings in, especially in congregations where the majority live on Social Security. This si why most pastors work a job during the week. You should actually know that IF what you say about your past experience is true.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Pastors need to make enough money to raise their families. You can't base a salary on what the congregation brings in, especially in congregations where the majority live on Social Security. This si why most pastors work a job during the week. You should actually know that IF what you say about your past experience is true.

Sounds like you're fine with the congregants being poor so long as you're getting your sweet check.

 

[Paidiske]

In my church, where I am, the stipend is pegged at a percentage (I think from memory 80%) of the national average wage. In my experience that is adequate but not enough to fund a life of extravagance or luxury.

Of course if you have a large family that would make a big difference, but you would generally also have a spouse who could work as well.

In my area I would not say it is true that most pastors are bi-vocational (although I know some).

 

[Justified112]

Sounds like you're fine with the congregants being poor so long as you're getting your sweet check.

No, what I am saying is that YOUR argument, namely that pastors should make what their congregants make is an erroneous argument particularly for pastors whose congregants are elderly and live on fixed incomes. I am saying that your argument is nonsense.

I work. My congregation doesn't support me. I am one of those who don't get a "sweet check." And frankly, you don't speak as one who has any real pastoral experience. Most pastors understand the challenges pastors face. You don't really demonstrate any understanding of that.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

No, what I am saying is that YOUR argument, namely that pastors should make what their congregants make is an erroneous argument particularly for pastors whose congregants are elderly and live on fixed incomes. I am saying that your argument is nonsense.

I work. My congregation doesn't support me. I am one of those who don't get a "sweet check." And frankly, you don't speak as one who has any real pastoral experience. Most pastors understand the challenges pastors face. You don't really demonstrate any understanding of that.

You state my argument as being nonsense. Thus ends our discussion. Have a good day.

 

[Justified112]

You state my argument as being nonsense. Thus ends our discussion. Have a good day.

Yes, and I said it doesn't reflect someone who understands pastoral challenges despite claiming to have some pastoral experience. Don't forget that part.

 

[Archivist]

.i must laugh a bit....the ELCA runs in the pattern prescribed to it , by men .
Who control that prescription ..
Boom .
The system of control .

What men? You do realize that a significant number of women hold leadership positions on the ELCA.

 

[Kaon]

First off the objection to the papacy and it's replacement of Christ being the center of the church is exactly why the great schism happened. Secondly you seem to think that one can't follow God by humbly submitting to those he puts in authority over us. What if every early Christian had thought as you and told the apostles "no" when they elected the first bishops. Thirdly your accusations have less to do with Christianity as a whole, and more to do strictly with Roman Catholicism and protestantism.



Yea pretty much the sum of your argument. Because when the individual is proudly in charge, there is no room for reproof or humility.

Ok.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The Word of God Himself appointed most all of them. So, they were well within their given authority to be who they were. There are plenty of people today who go by man-made standards of authority, leading to what the Church is today.

They also knew the Church was a collection of souls - not bounded by an edifice. Many of them ministered without an edifice, and to anyone who would listen. They also got mauled, and even murdered for it. And, that is leaving out the politics of why they were "martyred". The Church is what it is today because, like any institution, it wants to maintain its structure. If it is at the expense of their consumer base, then so be it - because after a quarter of correction, the market for "religion" re-calibrates back to the norm. This is especially true if there is a war, or disaster.

People are being exploited by the very tool that is supposed to enlighten them. That is partly on the people, but doubly on those leader - especially if they know what they are doing to others.

And none of what you say applies to church leaders except the apostles? Did God only intend there be a certain amount of leaders in the first century and then we exist as a libertarian individuals, accountable to no one?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

And none of what you say applies to church leaders except the apostles? Did God only intend there be a certain amount of leaders in the first century and then we exist as a libertarian individuals, accountable to no one?

Libertarian individuals who enjoy potluck lunches.