What caused the Schism between the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic Church?

[ArmyMatt]

LOL, what does the name MEAN in that language? Palestinian name?

they mean the same thing. this is why I chime in at your defense when folks say you shouldn't use Yeshua.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

and the Eunomeans were not Arian in the original, yet they are considered an extreme form of the Arian heresy

That is funny, the Arians condemned the Eunomeans and vice versa...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

they mean the same thing. this is why I chime in at your defense when folks say you shouldn't use Yeshua.

OK I looked it up. I was thinking it was a pre-Christian Celtic name. So John it is.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well, a few things....

Apples and oranges argument. When we use Golgotha or Eli, Eli, lema Sabachthani during any services, we are using the phrases the way the Church chose to lay out Scripture. Obviously the Church and the original synoptics chose to place certain words a certain way. So, I choose to follow the Church's lead, not my own odd private interpretations of when I should and shouldn't get linguistically into the way things were said in antiquity. I find it odd that you don't see it's odd when every Tom, Dick, and Harry in TAW will tell you it is. You seem to think that the name "Jesus" isn't the same in meaning as Yeshua. That is also odd. So following your way of understanding this, the name Shimon, which in Hebrew means "God has heard," would NOT mean "God has heard" in English as "Simon?" huh? It must be said exactly as the ancient original culture said it or it loses its meaning? My name is Joseph, so I guess since it's not Yossef in Hebrew my name no longer means to increase as it did in the ancient language? Very strange.....and inconsistent.

The Orthodox Church doesn't do this. No Church does except those odd messianic groups and Jews for Jesus. It is judaizing and strange. I would go with tradition, past precedent, and normal understandings....unless I wanted to Judaize.

That is exactly my point. Instead of attacking and making fun of it, maybe you could listen and maybe learn something? God did not Name Him "Jesus". Read it again. I am not saying YOU should call Him Yeshua. I said I prefer to since He was Named that by His Father FOR A REASON. How is naming him "Jesus" mean He will save His people from their sins?? Yeshua literally means that. So when we use "Golgotha" or "Eli, Eli, lema Sabachthani" or "Hoshiana" or other Aramaic/Hebrew terms during services, are we also "Judaizing"?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well, a few things....

Apples and oranges argument. When we use Golgotha or Eli, Eli, lema Sabachthani during any services, we are using the phrases the way the Church chose to lay out Scripture. Obviously the Church and the original synoptics chose to place certain words a certain way. So, I choose to follow the Church's lead, not my own odd private interpretations of when I should and shouldn't get linguistically into the way things were said in antiquity. I find it odd that you don't see it's odd when every Tom, Dick, and Harry in TAW will tell you it is. You seem to think that the name "Jesus" isn't the same in meaning as Yeshua. That is also odd. So following your way of understanding this, the name Shimon, which in Hebrew means "God has heard," would NOT mean "God has heard" in English as "Simon?" huh? It must be said exactly as the ancient original culture said it or it loses its meaning? My name is Joseph, so I guess since it's not Yossef in Hebrew my name no longer means to increase as it did in the ancient language? Very strange.....and inconsistent.

The Orthodox Church doesn't do this. No Church does except those odd messianic groups and Jews for Jesus. It is judaizing and strange. I would go with tradition, past precedent, and normal understandings....unless I wanted to Judaize.

Again it is obvious you do not know what the original intent of judaizing was. You have an altered view. You seem to think using any Hebrew term is Judaizing, which is ridiculous. Scripture was written in Greek by Jews. Matthew was likely written in Hebrew originally. Jesus is not a straight English transliteration of Yeshua or Yehoshua, Joshua would be closest. Remember we were talking about the RCC using unleavened bread which you called Judaizing. You brought up using Yeshua, His original Name, was Judaizing also. Yes, very strange indeed!

 

[prodromos]

I'm fine with both.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Nonsense. I don’t think one mention of a Jewish term is Judaizing in the ancient context. It’s a type of private judaizing you feel the need to do, strangely.

Obviously judaizing was a movement in the early church to force circumcision, Kosher rules, and Rabbinic approaches on Christianity. Please, Yesh, for the love of Pete, don’t be this condescending. You can think me odd, strange, wrong, but not stupid. The Catholics took the Eucharist and looked in the wrong direction and sought to make the Eucharist unleavened thinking they were re-creating the Last Supper in the Jewish Seder Passover setup. That was my original point. It’s a weak, Jewish approach to something

But to Jew-up the Church using Hebrew names is a type of Judaizing, not the entirety of it or the context of the problem we see in Acts of course. You never addressed my question—where does it end? Instead of Theotokos I can call her Mother Miriam? Is it wrong and immoral? No. Is it improper and inconsistent with what the Church has done to this point? Yes. Could I start saying “Adonai have mercy!” 40 times a day? Yes. But it’s goofy. Lord works fine. It’s a type of Judaizing to think I need to Jew-up names and terms like that to some point. Is it the level of Judaizing as asking my priest to force circumcision and Kosher rules and Bar Mitzvas? No. But the need to Jew things up is odd.

So my question still stands, which you don’t answer....at what point are you willing to say this is goofy and off? Could we post in TAW calling the Church “ecclesia,” the Greek term, and quit saying church? Miriam, Yohannon, Elohim, etc. maybe I could call my priest Presbyteros Georgios instead of Father George?

Where do you suggest we draw the line on this unusual need to call names and terms in ancient vocabulary?

And could you cite a place where the Fathers call the Lord “Yeshua” and suggest we follow suit? Did our Father Among the Saints suggest this? If so, I yield and you got me. If not, your own private proclivities toward Jewish things moved you to do something the Church doesn’t do, which is indeed odd.

I think you’re a good guy, definitely Orthodox and usually right-on. You are bright with a good heart and I value your contributions in here. I just have never understood this aspect of how you see things. No moral judgement....

Again it is obvious you do not know what the original intent of judaizing was. You have an altered view. You seem to think using any Hebrew term is Judaizing, which is ridiculous. Scripture was written in Greek by Jews. Matthew was likely written in Hebrew originally. Jesus is not a straight English transliteration of Yeshua or Yehoshua, Joshua would be closest. Remember we were talking about the RCC using unleavened bread which you called Judaizing. You brought up using Yeshua, His original Name, was Judaizing also. Yes, very strange indeed!

 

[prodromos]

Please, Yesh, for the love of Pete, don’t be this condescending.

For the love of Kepha, Gurney. Kepha!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I hope I'm not stepping on toes, but haven't we been over this? Isn't Yesh from an ethnically Jewish background?

I admit that if people don't know that, his use of Jewish names could be confusing re: the Church to an outsider. And that might be reason enough for Yesh himself to decide not to do it. But do we need to censor him over it if it is his ethnic background? I'm much more concerned about the impression we could give casual visitors who might be lurking who read all this. If nothing else, maybe we should be going privately to our brother if we have something against him - not dragging it through a very public place.

I'll stop now. Forgive me please. I love each of you, I really do. And I want so much not to offend any of you. But my eye is always on the door, keeping watch for visitors, inquirers, etc. And I am perhaps over-concerned with what we might show them. After all, a real parish is composed of real people, warts and all. But I also know that in Orthodoxy, people tend to relate in community much differently than other places, and we ARE transformed, and we DO follow the principles we are given - at least almost all the time.

Forgive me. I'm just surprised to see this come out again and be such an issue to inspire pages of posts. Y'all are better than that. At least you've kept a good tone in it and been respectful - thank you for that.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

For the love of Kepha, Gurney. Kepha!

I thought his name was Yosef?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But to Jew-up the Church using Hebrew names is a type of Judaizing

Yes. But it’s goofy.

It’s a type of Judaizing to think I need to Jew-up names and terms like that to some point.

But the need to Jew things up is odd.

...at what point are you willing to say this is goofy and off?

I think you’re a good guy, definitely Orthodox and usually right-on. You are bright with a good heart and I value your contributions in here. I just have never understood this aspect of how you see things. No moral judgement....

I am not telling YOU to do anything. I just do not appreciate you saying using Yeshua is "silly" or that I am "Jewing things up". I find it offensive. I wonder if the early Church worried about gentiles goying up the Church? Now we have the opposite? I am not interested in continuing beating this dead horse. Shalom

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sorry you find it offensive instead of seeing it for what it is and maybe learning something. The fact that you can’t answer, or rather won’t, answer my question as to how far you’ll go with this stuff, that is most telling of all. So I’ll start breaking into Spanish for some phrases in here when I feel the mood strike me. Prefiero cambiar idiomas a veces si mis sentimientos cambian. Or maybe I can use Latin for words like truth? I’ll code switch! Gurney will say, the veritas of the matter is.....

TAW is an odd place indeed. I can see why Rus seldom comes now and so many have bailed.

I am not telling YOU to do anything. I just do not appreciate you saying using Yeshua is "silly" or that I am "Jewing things up". I find it offensive. I wonder if the early Church worried about gentiles goying up the Church? Now we have the opposite? I am not interested in continuing beating this dead horse. Shalom

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

He was ethnically Jewish???

I hope I'm not stepping on toes, but haven't we been over this? Isn't Yesh from an ethnically Jewish background?

I admit that if people don't know that, his use of Jewish names could be confusing re: the Church to an outsider. And that might be reason enough for Yesh himself to decide not to do it. But do we need to censor him over it if it is his ethnic background? I'm much more concerned about the impression we could give casual visitors who might be lurking who read all this. If nothing else, maybe we should be going privately to our brother if we have something against him - not dragging it through a very public place.

I'll stop now. Forgive me please. I love each of you, I really do. And I want so much not to offend any of you. But my eye is always on the door, keeping watch for visitors, inquirers, etc. And I am perhaps over-concerned with what we might show them. After all, a real parish is composed of real people, warts and all. But I also know that in Orthodoxy, people tend to relate in community much differently than other places, and we ARE transformed, and we DO follow the principles we are given - at least almost all the time.

Forgive me. I'm just surprised to see this come out again and be such an issue to inspire pages of posts. Y'all are better than that. At least you've kept a good tone in it and been respectful - thank you for that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

He was ethnically Jewish???

That was my understanding, which was why I thought we'd moved past all this.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’d never moved anywhere. I watched Rus try to make the very good argument against Hebrewizing names and just read it go around in circles. Never read Yesh was Jewish originally? I’d still think the use irregular, but at least it would’ve filled in some blanks.

That was my understanding, which was why I thought we'd moved past all this.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeshua,

I don’t understand your mindset on this, but I apologize if I’ve hurt your feelings, especially if I offended your cultural past. I should’ve just let my curiosity and opinion stay in my noodle. Again, apologies.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I apologize and the thread goes cold. Proof positive that Feisty Fiery Action Gurney keeps TAW more interesting than calm boring Gurney!!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I apologize and the thread goes cold. Proof positive that Feisty Fiery Action Gurney keeps TAW more interesting than calm boring Gurney!!

'tis why we keep you around

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I could razz Yeshua with Jewish Rabbi jokes and he could banter me with Dune humor! “Two mentats, a Harkonnen, and a third stage Guild Navigator walk into a spice bar....”

I joked with GxG about his 30-foot-long posts and he ignored me!! Ee-choo-tah!!

'tis why we keep you around

 

[ArmyMatt]

I could razz Yeshua with Jewish Rabbi jokes and he could banter me with Dune humor! “Two mentats, a Harkonnen, and a third stage Guild Navigator walk into a spice bar....”

I joked with GxG about his 30-foot-long posts and he ignored me!! Ee-choo-tah!!

haha, how rude!