What are you really here for.

[Johnsloan]

I would love to have a discussion on this subject. But it almost always ends in people getting hurt and trying to protect what they have believed for how ever long.

I was taught a certian belief system for 21 years. But after A while I realised something was wrong/missing.

I heard a guy speaking on what the bible actully said. So I listened with an open mind.
Thats all you need to do. I have now come to believe that almost every thing I was told in raditional church is wrong. I know that this statement has now already forced you into forming an opinion of me or what I might believe. I have seen so much fighting I will not answer or debate with anyone on any thing in this thread. I will tell you my experiance. After that you do with it what ever you like. I have seen it all before. If there is some one who is able to have an adult discussion on this subject. I would be happy for then to start there own discussion thread. And I will gladly go and discuss the subject where we can share scripture and try and work along together to get all we can from scripture on the subject. But as I said experiance shows that as soon as people get shown that they are incorrect the get embaressed and try to make scripture fit there thoughts. Then it turns in to mush.

So all that said what is the subject.

There are many many scriptures tell Christians/believers what they are here for.
Scripture tells us what we can achieve through Christ.
What we are in Christ. What we are not in Christ. what we are as new creations.
Most of these subjects seem to bring out the worse in Christians. Mostly becuase of the wide spread misteaching on these subjects.

We sit under teachers pastors leaders call it what you like. We sit under them who are teaching you to do what they never managed ever. SO the teachers struggle to do or even believe what scripture teaches as they were taught by guys who had the same problem.

So I heard much over 21 years in tradictional church. Doesnt matter what denomination. Most of them are wrong on most things.

What are we here for. If you ask the average Christian this they would almost always say
To lead a good life. Although this is not wrong it is the very very basic requirement.
But if you were to look at the average Christian male. almost all fail on a daily basis with the smallest of things. Like road rage hating the nieghbours. the list is endless really on where the average Christian falls down. So are fine with neighbours some dont have anger issues. But there is things that we all fall into continually. So even on the basic requirment we fall all to often. Including the teachers/leaders/ministers/pastors.

I would say all of these failing comes from one thing and one thing only.
It comes from an unwillingness to die to self.

If we truly died to self. We would not get angry. You get angry because you are living for self.
Jelousy also comes from love of self, greed malice.anger all are love of self. Dieing to self means you can not get hurt by anyone. If you put your family berfore Christ. Thats self.
Money before Christ is self. all of the things we do that are wrong are all about self.

If you live for Christ when you rise each day. People can spit in your face and you will be hurt for them in there condition. Christ was never hurt for himself. He never said anything agaisnt us. We are hurt if someone makes us look a little silly. You see it every day even in these forums. I see adults act like children and it get deeper and deeper. all about self.

Christ lived and died for you. He askes the same of you.
Pick up your cross and follow me.
In other words I want you to live the same as I did. Love one and other forgiv one and other.
Love your enemys. I dont know a single Christians who does this or anything like it.
This is only one small subject of the few things I would like to speak about. I never got to the one I love most that cause so much hatred amoung the brethern.

This is enough from me today.

 

[r4.h]

I agree whole heartedly, and while i cant say im there yet, i do see it in my pastor. Ive not seen a hint of defending himself, though i have seen often attacked.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

I would love to have a discussion on this subject. But it almost always ends in people getting hurt and trying to protect what they have believed for how ever long.

I was taught a certian belief system for 21 years. But after A while I realised something was wrong/missing.

I heard a guy speaking on what the bible actully said. So I listened with an open mind.
Thats all you need to do. I have now come to believe that almost every thing I was told in raditional church is wrong. I know that this statement has now already forced you into forming an opinion of me or what I might believe. I have seen so much fighting I will not answer or debate with anyone on any thing in this thread. I will tell you my experiance. After that you do with it what ever you like. I have seen it all before. If there is some one who is able to have an adult discussion on this subject. I would be happy for then to start there own discussion thread. And I will gladly go and discuss the subject where we can share scripture and try and work along together to get all we can from scripture on the subject. But as I said experiance shows that as soon as people get shown that they are incorrect the get embaressed and try to make scripture fit there thoughts. Then it turns in to mush.

So all that said what is the subject.

There are many many scriptures tell Christians/believers what they are here for.
Scripture tells us what we can achieve through Christ.
What we are in Christ. What we are not in Christ. what we are as new creations.
Most of these subjects seem to bring out the worse in Christians. Mostly becuase of the wide spread misteaching on these subjects.

We sit under teachers pastors leaders call it what you like. We sit under them who are teaching you to do what they never managed ever. SO the teachers struggle to do or even believe what scripture teaches as they were taught by guys who had the same problem.

So I heard much over 21 years in tradictional church. Doesnt matter what denomination. Most of them are wrong on most things.

What are we here for. If you ask the average Christian this they would almost always say
To lead a good life. Although this is not wrong it is the very very basic requirement.
But if you were to look at the average Christian male. almost all fail on a daily basis with the smallest of things. Like road rage hating the nieghbours. the list is endless really on where the average Christian falls down. So are fine with neighbours some dont have anger issues. But there is things that we all fall into continually. So even on the basic requirment we fall all to often. Including the teachers/leaders/ministers/pastors.

I would say all of these failing comes from one thing and one thing only.
It comes from an unwillingness to die to self.

If we truly died to self. We would not get angry. You get angry because you are living for self.
Jelousy also comes from love of self, greed malice.anger all are love of self. Dieing to self means you can not get hurt by anyone. If you put your family berfore Christ. Thats self.
Money before Christ is self. all of the things we do that are wrong are all about self.

If you live for Christ when you rise each day. People can spit in your face and you will be hurt for them in there condition. Christ was never hurt for himself. He never said anything agaisnt us. We are hurt if someone makes us look a little silly. You see it every day even in these forums. I see adults act like children and it get deeper and deeper. all about self.

Christ lived and died for you. He askes the same of you.
Pick up your cross and follow me.
In other words I want you to live the same as I did. Love one and other forgiv one and other.
Love your enemys. I dont know a single Christians who does this or anything like it.
This is only one small subject of the few things I would like to speak about. I never got to the one I love most that cause so much hatred amoung the brethern.

This is enough from me today.

Well Christians aren't called to be above anger. There is righteous anger and unrighteous anger. Jesus had plenty of righteous anger when he cleansed the temple in John 2:15.

 

[A_Thinker]

I would say all of these failing comes from one thing and one thing only.

It comes from an unwillingness to die to self.

This is the eternal struggle ... from the garden to today ... even until Christ returns.

Selfishness ... What we learned ... is that the center of SIN ... is "I"

And we would have no chance of overcoming this, ... except that Christ came to set us free ...

As we base lives upon Him, we will grow to more like Him ... who gave Him self for us.

 

[redleghunter]

What are you really here for?

ad gloriam Dei

 

[mozo41]

I would love to have a discussion on this subject. But it almost always ends in people getting hurt and trying to protect what they have believed for how ever long.

I was taught a certian belief system for 21 years. But after A while I realised something was wrong/missing.

I heard a guy speaking on what the bible actully said. So I listened with an open mind.
Thats all you need to do. I have now come to believe that almost every thing I was told in raditional church is wrong. I know that this statement has now already forced you into forming an opinion of me or what I might believe. I have seen so much fighting I will not answer or debate with anyone on any thing in this thread. I will tell you my experiance. After that you do with it what ever you like. I have seen it all before. If there is some one who is able to have an adult discussion on this subject. I would be happy for then to start there own discussion thread. And I will gladly go and discuss the subject where we can share scripture and try and work along together to get all we can from scripture on the subject. But as I said experiance shows that as soon as people get shown that they are incorrect the get embaressed and try to make scripture fit there thoughts. Then it turns in to mush.

So all that said what is the subject.

There are many many scriptures tell Christians/believers what they are here for.
Scripture tells us what we can achieve through Christ.
What we are in Christ. What we are not in Christ. what we are as new creations.
Most of these subjects seem to bring out the worse in Christians. Mostly becuase of the wide spread misteaching on these subjects.

We sit under teachers pastors leaders call it what you like. We sit under them who are teaching you to do what they never managed ever. SO the teachers struggle to do or even believe what scripture teaches as they were taught by guys who had the same problem.

So I heard much over 21 years in tradictional church. Doesnt matter what denomination. Most of them are wrong on most things.

What are we here for. If you ask the average Christian this they would almost always say
To lead a good life. Although this is not wrong it is the very very basic requirement.
But if you were to look at the average Christian male. almost all fail on a daily basis with the smallest of things. Like road rage hating the nieghbours. the list is endless really on where the average Christian falls down. So are fine with neighbours some dont have anger issues. But there is things that we all fall into continually. So even on the basic requirment we fall all to often. Including the teachers/leaders/ministers/pastors.

I would say all of these failing comes from one thing and one thing only.
It comes from an unwillingness to die to self.

If we truly died to self. We would not get angry. You get angry because you are living for self.
Jelousy also comes from love of self, greed malice.anger all are love of self. Dieing to self means you can not get hurt by anyone. If you put your family berfore Christ. Thats self.
Money before Christ is self. all of the things we do that are wrong are all about self.

If you live for Christ when you rise each day. People can spit in your face and you will be hurt for them in there condition. Christ was never hurt for himself. He never said anything agaisnt us. We are hurt if someone makes us look a little silly. You see it every day even in these forums. I see adults act like children and it get deeper and deeper. all about self.

Christ lived and died for you. He askes the same of you.
Pick up your cross and follow me.
In other words I want you to live the same as I did. Love one and other forgiv one and other.
Love your enemys. I dont know a single Christians who does this or anything like it.
This is only one small subject of the few things I would like to speak about. I never got to the one I love most that cause so much hatred amoung the brethern.

This is enough from me today.

i know why i am here ... do you ?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Christ was never hurt for himself.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Pretty sure he was, not that it wasn't understandable, but not going to argue the point.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Are we allowed to ask the OP if he lives up to the level of living spoken of any more that others?

And my attitude is not to say I don't agree with what we should do, but...

 

[Johnsloan]

Are we allowed to ask the OP if he lives up to the level of living spoken of any more that others?

And my attitude is not to say I don't agree with what we should do, but...

You can ask anything you like. Its not about me or you.

 

[Johnsloan]

What are you really here for?

ad gloriam Dei

Every thing I said so far is about that verse and many others.

 

[Johnsloan]

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Pretty sure he was, not that it wasn't understandable, but not going to argue the point.

Like I said He wasnt hurt at us. He wasnt hurt at the reason He came. He lived and died for you and there was no turning back. He wasnt. But you see what you want. dont we.

 

[Johnsloan]

This is the eternal struggle ... from the garden to today ... even until Christ returns.

Selfishness ... What we learned ... is that the center of SIN ... is "I"

And we would have no chance of overcoming this, ... except that Christ came to set us free ...

As we base lives upon Him, we will grow to more like Him ... who gave Him self for us.

We give and do what we want and we also keep a and do what we want.
I believe if we go to God in the secret place like we are told to. We will become more like Christ if we are willing to die to self. We can easy take 15 minutes to wait on God a day. But we dont give Him five seconds a day. I mean where we sit and wait. Nothing else. not bible study. Waiting. Telling Him Lord I want to die to self and live for you. I want to lay down myself for the people i hate.
That will get Gods attention. We are told to love our city. and we hate most of it.
we cant do it on our own. as history shows us. there no difference between us and the apostles or the acts people none. So what did they do that we dont. They gave them selfs God can work with that. We watch telly ten times more than we give God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Like I said He wasnt hurt at us. He wasnt hurt at the reason He came. He lived and died for you and there was no turning back. He wasnt. But you see what you want. dont we.

I think he was hurting for himself there, a completely human and absolutely understanding thing. We are part of the human race, and thinking of ourselves can be an ok thing, as long as we aren't all out selfish. Even God thinks of himself

Be unselfish towards people and know that we are people too.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Like I said He wasnt hurt at us.

I see, I think I do anyway. That wasn't exactly what you said, and even "hurt at us" is a bit hard to understand, but if there was a misunderstanding on my end, apologies.

 

[bling]

Our mission statement is as brief and all inclusive: Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. The opposite for being selfish is being selfless and godly type love is totally selfless. God is not doing stuff for his own sake (although it is God's desire to help humans), but everything is done for the unselfish reason of helping willing humans fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[bling]

I think he was hurting for himself there, a completely human and absolutely understanding thing. We are part of the human race, and thinking of ourselves can be an ok thing, as long as we aren't all out selfish. Even God thinks of himself

Be unselfish towards people and know that we are people too.

You need to eat, sleep, exercise and learn so you can be a greater servant to others like God is always serving others.

 

[St_Worm2]

I would love to have a discussion on this subject. But it almost always ends in people getting hurt and trying to protect what they have believed for how ever long.

I was taught a certian belief system for 21 years. But after A while I realised something was wrong/missing.

I heard a guy speaking on what the bible actully said. So I listened with an open mind.
That's all you need to do. I have now come to believe that almost every thing I was told in traditional church is wrong. I know that this statement has now already forced you into forming an opinion of me or what I might believe. I have seen so much fighting I will not answer or debate with anyone on any thing in this thread. I will tell you my experience. After that you do with it what ever you like. I have seen it all before. If there is some one who is able to have an adult discussion on this subject. I would be happy for then to start there own discussion thread. And I will gladly go and discuss the subject where we can share scripture and try and work along together to get all we can from scripture on the subject. But as I said experiance shows that as soon as people get shown that they are incorrect the get embaressed and try to make scripture fit there thoughts. Then it turns in to mush.

So all that said what is the subject.

There are many many scriptures tell Christians/believers what they are here for.
Scripture tells us what we can achieve through Christ.
What we are in Christ. What we are not in Christ. what we are as new creations.
Most of these subjects seem to bring out the worse in Christians. Mostly becuase of the wide spread misteaching on these subjects.

We sit under teachers pastors leaders call it what you like. We sit under them who are teaching you to do what they never managed ever. SO the teachers struggle to do or even believe what scripture teaches as they were taught by guys who had the same problem.

So I heard much over 21 years in tradictional church. Doesnt matter what denomination. Most of them are wrong on most things.

What are we here for. If you ask the average Christian this they would almost always say
To lead a good life. Although this is not wrong it is the very very basic requirement.
But if you were to look at the average Christian male. almost all fail on a daily basis with the smallest of things. Like road rage hating the nieghbours. the list is endless really on where the average Christian falls down. So are fine with neighbours some dont have anger issues. But there is things that we all fall into continually. So even on the basic requirment we fall all to often. Including the teachers/leaders/ministers/pastors.

I would say all of these failing comes from one thing and one thing only.
It comes from an unwillingness to die to self.

If we truly died to self. We would not get angry. You get angry because you are living for self.
Jelousy also comes from love of self, greed malice.anger all are love of self. Dieing to self means you can not get hurt by anyone. If you put your family berfore Christ. Thats self.
Money before Christ is self. all of the things we do that are wrong are all about self.

If you live for Christ when you rise each day. People can spit in your face and you will be hurt for them in there condition. Christ was never hurt for himself. He never said anything agaisnt us. We are hurt if someone makes us look a little silly. You see it every day even in these forums. I see adults act like children and it get deeper and deeper. all about self.

Christ lived and died for you. He askes the same of you.
Pick up your cross and follow me.
In other words I want you to live the same as I did. Love one and other forgiv one and other.
Love your enemys. I dont know a single Christians who does this or anything like it.
This is only one small subject of the few things I would like to speak about. I never got to the one I love most that cause so much hatred amoung the brethern.

This is enough from me today.

Hi Johnsloan, while I agree with your premise concerning dying to self as being extremely important to living the Christian life, and that those who do so are able to deal with the difficulties that come their way each day in a far more "Christian" way (if you will), I am saddened to hear of your extremely poor experience with the church and her people. I can tell you truthfully that after 31 years as a Christian, I have had a very different experience with the church, her leaders, and her people, quite the opposite of yours, in fact.

That you, for instance, do not personally know a single Christian who loves and forgives others in Christ, including their enemies, is simply astounding to me. Likewise, off hand, I can't think of a single Christian who would say that the the reason we are here is to "live the good life". Not one.

Why do you think your experience with the church, her leaders and her people has been so very different than mine has been

I do agree with you that forums like this one can be a disaster at times as far as ugliness in our exchanges is concerned, and that we, as Christians, need to be FAR more aware of what we look/sound like to the many non-Christians out there who are seeing these interactions of ours, as well as simply being loving, patient and kind towards one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, as He wants/needs us to be.

Here are a few of instructions from the Lord that help me, and that I try to remember before I post here.

Matthew 5
16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7
12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
4 Love is patient, love is kind....

Galatians 6
9 And let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we shall reap if we do not grow weary.
10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

James 1
19 Let everyone be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger;
20 for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 3
15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.​

Question, what are some of the practical ways that you go about "dying to self" each day? How do you do that (if you don't mind me asking)?

Also, you said that nearly everything you were told in traditional church was wrong. Would you mind elaborating on that a bit? IOW, what things were you taught, specifically, that stand out the most to you as being incorrect or perhaps harmful?

Finally, what do you believe can be done to help effect a positive change in the lives of certain Christians (like the ones that you've described above who are obviously struggling) and their churches as well?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Philippians 1
6 I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.​

 

[2tim_215]

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Pretty sure he was, not that it wasn't understandable, but not going to argue the point.

For what it's worth, when Jesus said this, it was because He was fulfilling prophecy (see Psalm 22).

And furthermore. one of the most important things that happened to Him on the cross which may be overlooked by many, was that He actually became sin and the fact that a Holy God (who cannot look upon sin) had to turn away from Jesus, the first (and only) time since the beginning of creation that He and God were separated from each other (the Father from the Son) thus adding to the tremendous sacrifice that was made by Him on our behalf.
2 Cor 521 (KJV) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Kenny'sID]

For what it's worth, when Jesus said this, it was because He was fulfilling prophecy (see Psalm 22).

Not seeing it at all. That's just two similar phrases in the bible, and how one would draw that conclusion is completely beyond me.

Warning...don't get me started.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You need to eat, sleep, exercise and learn so you can be a greater servant to others like God is always serving others.

Absolutely.