What are Theological Liberalism and Theological Postmodernism?

FireDragon76

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You make your theological arguments based on what keeps you from being looked down on by the majority of society and you make your political arguments the same way.

And fundamentalists make their arguments by what snubs the majority of society. Whatever is contrarian and seems to uphold their narrow religious creed, they gravitate towards it. They've been doing that since the beginning in the 19th century.
 
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Apex

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When do you think the Gospel according to Matthew was penned?

I believe Mark was the first gospel written (around A.D. 65) and that "Matthew" used Mark as a source for his gospel (around A.D. 70-75) and that Luke used both Mark and "Matthew" as a source for his gospel (around A.D. 80-85).

The hypothesis I believe concerning the Synoptic Problem is called Marken Priority without Q.

I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Synoptic-Problem-through-Understanding-Bible/dp/0567080560/
 
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redleghunter

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And fundamentalists make their arguments by what snubs the majority of society. Whatever is contrarian and seems to uphold their narrow religious creed, they gravitate towards it. They've been doing that since the beginning in the 19th century.
Don't know what happened but what you quoted was not my quote.

My quote mentioned how you use "fundamentalist" so often.

However, as narrow "religious" creeds go, the fundamentalists actually simmered down key historical Christian doctrines to contrast against the Tubingen liberal theology. As I posted earlier on a similar thread:

1) The Bible is literally true. Associated with this tenet is the belief that the Bible is inerrant, that is, without error and free from all contradictions.

2) The virgin birth and deity of Christ. Fundamentalists believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary and conceived by the Holy Spirit and that He was and is the Son of God, fully human and fully divine.

3) The substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross. Fundamentalism teaches that salvation is obtained only through God’s grace and human faith in Christ’s crucifixion for the sins of mankind.

4) The bodily resurrection of Jesus. On the third day after His crucifixion, Jesus rose from the grave and now sits at the right hand of God the Father.

5) The authenticity of Jesus’ miracles as recorded in Scripture.
 
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redleghunter

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I believe Mark was the first gospel written (around A.D. 65) and that "Matthew" used Mark as a source for his gospel (around A.D. 70-75) and that Luke used both Mark and "Matthew" as a source for his gospel (around A.D. 80-85).

The hypothesis I believe concerning the Synoptic Problem is called Marken Priority without Q.

I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Synoptic-Problem-through-Understanding-Bible/dp/0567080560/
I will say your dating is within the conservative realm.

However, most scholars put Luke before 70AD.

A Chronological Order of The New Testament Books


Data content collected and input by Gary Butner, Th.D. Original spreadsheet designed by R.A.Sickler, Ph.D.
 
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Apex

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I will say your dating is within the conservative realm.

However, most scholars put Luke before 70AD.

A Chronological Order of The New Testament Books


Data content collected and input by Gary Butner, Th.D. Original spreadsheet designed by R.A.Sickler, Ph.D.

I've already told you...I hold to a mixture of both liberal and conservative positions. I care about truth, not labels.
 
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FireDragon76

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1) The Bible is literally true. Associated with this tenet is the belief that the Bible is inerrant, that is, without error and free from all contradictions.

Nobody can take that seriously now days who has any intellectual acumen. The Gospels do contain obvious details that are difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile (did Jesus ride one or two donkey's into Jerusalem? And the circumstances of Judas death, are obvious examples). As should be expected from documents that come from different sources from community's with different agendas and were written down some time after the events they reflect.

2) The virgin birth and deity of Christ. Fundamentalists believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary and conceived by the Holy Spirit and that He was and is the Son of God, fully human and fully divine.

First off, I believe in the virgin birth, though I believe its symbolism is more important than its strict facticity. Paul was able to preach the Gospel without making the virgin birth a fundamental of the faith. IT seems to me fundamentalists risk making what is really a minor theme in the NT account, into a major theme, overlooking other important themes about Jesus.

I don't know any liberal that denies the divinity of Christ, they just don't believe Greek metaphysical categories are adequate to describe this reality. I am not so skeptical of them, but I still think it is important not to be stuck in a wooden orthodoxy. I think modern theologians can produce valuable insights and reflections on the humanity of Jesus.

3) The substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross. Fundamentalism teaches that salvation is obtained only through God’s grace and human faith in Christ’s crucifixion for the sins of mankind.

Mired in juridical medieval Latin concepts that has little to do with the Jewish faith of Christ. YHWH does not need blood sacrifices to appease his sense of anger or justice, YHWH is El malei rachamim, "God, full of mercy".

4) The bodily resurrection of Jesus. On the third day after His crucifixion, Jesus rose from the grave and now sits at the right hand of God the Father.

And how did this all happen? Did he just get up and walk out of the tomb in the same bloody body he died in? If so, how was he much different from other people who have been resuscitated? And when he ascended into heaven, where exactly was he going? As Carl Sagan pointed out, if Jesus traveled at the speed of light upward into the sky, he would still be somewhere in our galaxy.

And the right hand of God... does an omnipresent God literally have a right hand to sit on? Or is this simply a way of saying that Jesus holds the fullness of what is means for a man to embody the promises of the Law and the Prophets, and thus showed himself to be the Messiah and the Elected One of Israel.

I believe Jesus Christ is alive in a meaningful way that we can experience today (I have supper with Jesus every sunday). The exact details of how and what Jesus resurrection was is not important to me. I think that is sufficient basis for me to have a generous orthodoxy towards other Christians, that can encompass the faith of Billy Graham and N.T. Wright, all the way to perhaps Marcus Borg and Jack Spong. Unlike fundamentalists, I am not into having firm boundaries for who is in and out, merely because their way of being Christian is different from mine. I look at the fruits of that faith to know them (as Jesus told us to do).

5) The authenticity of Jesus’ miracles as recorded in Scripture.

Even many modern liberals will grant that at least some of Jesus miracles happened. Marcus Borg seemed to believe his miracles were akin to modern faith healings.
 
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redleghunter

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Nobody can take that seriously now days who has any intellectual acumen. The Gospels do contain obvious details that are difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile (did Jesus ride one or two donkey's into Jerusalem? And the circumstances of Judas death, are obvious examples). As should be expected from documents that come from different sources from community's with different agendas and were written down some time after the events they reflect.



First off, I believe in the virgin birth, though I believe its symbolism is more important than its strict facticity. Paul was able to preach the Gospel without making the virgin birth a fundamental of the faith. IT seems to me fundamentalists risk making what is really a minor theme in the NT account, into a major theme, overlooking other important themes about Jesus.

I don't know any liberal that denies the divinity of Christ, they just don't believe Greek metaphysical categories are adequate to describe this reality. I am not so skeptical of them, but I still think it is important not to be stuck in a wooden orthodoxy. I think modern theologians can produce valuable insights and reflections on the humanity of Jesus.



Mired in juridical medieval Latin concepts that has little to do with the Jewish faith of Christ. YHWH does not need blood sacrifices to appease his sense of anger or justice, YHWH is El malei rachamim, "God, full of mercy".



And how did this all happen? Did he just get up and walk out of the tomb in the same bloody body he died in? If so, how was he much different from other people who have been resuscitated? And when he ascended into heaven, where exactly was he going? As Carl Sagan pointed out, if Jesus traveled at the speed of light upward into the sky, he would still be somewhere in our galaxy.

And the right hand of God... does an omnipresent God literally have a right hand to sit on? Or is this simply a way of saying that Jesus holds the fullness of what is means for a man to embody the promises of the Law and the Prophets, and thus showed himself to be the Messiah and the Elected One of Israel.

I believe Jesus Christ is alive in a meaningful way that we can experience today (I have supper with Jesus every sunday). The exact details of how and what Jesus resurrection was is not important to me. I think that is sufficient basis for me to have a generous orthodoxy towards other Christians, that can encompass the faith of Billy Graham and N.T. Wright, all the way to perhaps Marcus Borg and Jack Spong. Unlike fundamentalists, I am not into having firm boundaries for who is in and out, merely because their way of being Christian is different from mine. I look at the fruits of that faith to know them (as Jesus told us to do).



Even many modern liberals will grant that at least some of Jesus miracles happened. Marcus Borg seemed to believe his miracles were akin to modern faith healings.
I think you just proved the OP authors point.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Soup kitchens and break immigration laws? You are right, Jesus didn't tell us to do those things, but he did tell us to love our neighbor as ourselves, so when some is hungry we feed the
, when someone is homeless, we house them.

Galatians 5:14 for all the law in one word is fulfilled -- in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;'

What is the loving thing to do with a criminal? Is it loving to society to leave crime unpunished?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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They cause doubt

Christians help instill and build faith. Wolves do their best to bring about doubt. When looked at in that light, it's easy to spot the enemy, and, he is among us.

Where you find sheep you also find wolves. That holds true in brick & mortar church building and online discussion forums.
 
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Mark Corbett

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They sound like the same thing.

Yes. Theological liberalism and theological postmodernism are essentially the same thing. There are some differences, but they are small compared to the similarities. I'm aware that a philosopher might strongly disagree, but I'm not talking about philosophical details, I'm talking about practical out workings.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Even many modern liberals will grant that at least some of Jesus miracles happened. Marcus Borg seemed to believe his miracles were akin to modern faith healings.

This statement illustrates precisely the description of theological liberalism given in the opening post. It erodes faith in the truthfulness of God's Word.

Also, notice how modern liberals tend to position themselves to sit in judgment of Scripture. They "grant" that some parts of the Bible are true! They effectively make themselves a higher authority than Scripture.

Our correct position with respect to the Bible is to believe it and submit our lives to it. God's Word judges whether our lives are "true", and not the other way around.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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They effectively make themselves a higher authority than Scripture.

That is precisely what they do, and that is precisely how they bring themselves to ruin.

The very battle, since the creation of man, is over God's Word and whether or not we trust it or the opposing voice, which calls us to buck God's authority, and His authority is found in His word - His expression of His rule over us.
 
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Apex

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Wolves do their best to bring about doubt.

I would say wolves do their best to bring about legalism thereby usurping grace. Their followers don't doubt; they have misdirected faith.
 
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FireDragon76

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This statement illustrates precisely the description of theological liberalism given in the opening post. It erodes faith in the truthfulness of God's Word.

Faith and doubt are not opposites.

It is the fundamentalist that puts up stumbling blocks towards faith, and eroding the doctrine of justification by faith alone through grace alone. Justification for the fundamentalist is often about belonging to the correct religious clique, one whose default position is hostility towards science and modernity. It distorts the Protestant notion of faith into mere assent to propositional truths and mouthing the correct religious jargon.


Also, notice how modern liberals tend to position themselves to sit in judgment of Scripture. They "grant" that some parts of the Bible are true! They effectively make themselves a higher authority than Scripture.

All people interpret the Scriptures based on their particular cultural context, because human beings are social creatures. Therefore it makes sense to look at the cultural context when approaching our hermeneutic of the Scriptures.

Our correct position with respect to the Bible is to believe it and submit our lives to it....

When have I ever said otherwise? But how we believe and submit to what the Bible teaches are something we do not agree on. I believe we submit to what the Bible teaches by actually following Jesus, and not merely following manmade rules about how the Bible is interpreted.
 
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claninja

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What is the loving thing to do with a criminal? Is it loving to society to leave crime unpunished?
Those who break the law, shall be punished according to the law. This, however, should not stop us from feeding the hungry, housing the homeless or treating the sick.
 
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Apex

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What is the loving thing to do with a criminal? Is it loving to society to leave crime unpunished?

Love and justice are two separate qualities. They do not contradict each other. God loves all sinners and will justly punish sin.

It is possible to treat a criminal both justly and lovingly.
 
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redleghunter

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It is the fundamentalist that puts up stumbling blocks towards faith, and eroding the doctrine of justification by faith alone through grace alone. Justification for the fundamentalist is often about belonging to the correct religious clique, one whose default position is hostility towards science and modernity. It distorts the Protestant notion of faith into mere assent to propositional truths and mouthing the correct religious jargon.

That's quite judgmental. Could you share some evidence for your claim?
 
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AarontheStudent

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Yes. Theological liberalism and theological postmodernism are essentially the same thing. There are some differences, but they are small compared to the similarities. I'm aware that a philosopher might strongly disagree, but I'm not talking about philosophical details, I'm talking about practical out workings.

Actually, I think a philosopher might strongly disagree because you've liberally changed the definition of these words and applied your own definition to them, unlike the definition they have conservatively held onto for so long.
 
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