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Featured What are Theological Liberalism and Theological Postmodernism?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Bulls eye hit.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    I agree with the above. However, a key piece is missing. When we help nourish stomachs and cover nakedness we should also be feeding the soul and presenting the 'covering' of Christ---The Gospel.

    I think that is a great divide today. Many believe feeding and clothing the poor 'is' the Gospel. Frankly, it is not. It is what those who are already "Kingdom citizens" do filled with the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Understand what you are saying here. If one believes 'good works' gains entry into the Kingdom of God, then it is important we should do as many 'good works' as possible before we die.

    Probably the best explanation of this approach comes not from the Bible but the Qur'an. Perhaps Islam at some point during their failed conquest of the West, influenced some Christian doctrines of the time.

    From: Weighing of deeds on Day of Judgment

    Question

    Someone asked me whether or not a Muslim would only have to be 51% good to enter Paradise when we were discussing the balancing of the good and bad deeds on the Day of Judgement. Please give me some more information on that because I was unable to answer that question.


    Answer

    "Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions."

    Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {Then as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be heavy, He will live a pleasant life (in Paradise). But as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be light, He will have his home in Hawiyah (pit, i.e. Hell). And what will make you know what it is? (It is) a hot blazing Fire!} [101:6-11]. Allah also Says (interpretation of meaning): {…So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise).} [7:8]. He also Says: {And those whose scales (of good deeds) are light, they are those who lose their ownselves, in Hell will they abide. }[23:103].
    Also, it is mentioned in the Qur'an: {… So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise). And as for those whose scale will be light, they are those who will lose their ownselves (by entering Hell) because they denied and rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) }[7:8-9].
    Ibn Abbas said: good and bad deeds will be weighed in the Scale that has a tongue and two pans. A believer will be brought forward in a good state with his deeds, and when his deeds are put in one of the pans, it becomes heavier than the other. This is mentioned in the verse: {…So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise).} [7:8]. The deeds of an unbeliever will be brought in a bad repulsive state, and when they will be put in the pan of the scale; they will have no weight, and ultimately he will be thrown in the Fire (Hell). [ al-Qurtubi ]
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Right. And I think Matthew 10 tells us 'who' 'My brothers' truly are.

    So we should all be warned to not withhold our resources from those who preach/teach the Gospel to all nations.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    That sounds a lot like Genesis 3 talking there. IMMHO of course.
     
  6. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of His Creation! Supporter

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    Well, the labels cause confusion. Consider -- some that are 'theologically liberal' (the label here) do know the idea and some even embrace it very strongly that we are only saved by grace through faith, and others do not. A mix. The label is useless for that (and for most anything else also, heh heh). If anything we are probably more likely to meet someone that seems 'liberal' (the useless label) who knows and believes in the grace doctrine, and then....it's yet even more complex, because of the current wrong form of the doctrine (a work of the enemy) some falsely preach by specifically ignoring or omitting verse 10 from the doctrine as laid out in Ephesians 2, verses 8 through 10. It's a 3 verse doctrine, after all, not a 1 or 2 verse doctrine. So, just to add to the confusion, we also have the false version of the grace doctrine too, lately. It's all a mass of confusion. We need to leave it and just start using full and complete quotes instead of partial quotes.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    They can.

    I would argue if they believe in saved by Grace through faith then they have at least one non-liberal theological view. Thus this would be a 'compound-complex' version of your label issue. :)

    Indeed and good point. However, such a person as John Gill (hardly a theological liberal in any era) would agree with your assessment. In our era there is a tendency for opposing views to omit the obvious to win an argument.

    Of course I would be keeping you 'hanging' if I did not use your example of Ephesians 2:4-10 (notice I expanded the passage further) and give my swing at what's going on. When someone wants to omit verses 8-10 they are most likely showing the 'doing' of salvation. That God is Sovereign in Salvation. One might point out from a liberal view that it is a combination of Grace and human good works. However, what is made quite clear in verses 4-10 is God is the 'doing' here. He is the 'horse' so to speak and in verses 8-10 we are the 'wagon' fashioned by Him to carry the load of His will and purpose.

    Note well, even God makes the 'wagon' and the words "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" make this clear.

    Of course I do believe Paul as a scholar on TaNaKh knew well Ezekiel 36:25-37. I also believe Jesus Christ in His Born Again discussion with Nicodemus was referring to the same passage when He said to him “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?"
     
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  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    That exchange was one of the most sobering of all in the Gospel of Matthew. It truly pointed out none of us can attain perfection in this life.
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Obviously not according to TaNaKh. They added to TaNaKh and ignored some TaNaKh teachings:

    Matthew 15: New King James Version (NKJV)

    Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

    3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

    8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
    And honor Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far from Me.
    9 And in vain they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    I think the water is muddied a bit as one poster points out using 'liberal' and 'conservative.'

    Historically, the terms have been 'orthodox' and 'heterodox.'

    I think this may boil down to the arguments of Biblical inerrancy and infallibility.
     
  11. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of His Creation! Supporter

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    Enjoyed reading again the passages you cited, and yes it's better yet with more verses, just as you referred to, verse 4 through 10. And I love so much that verse in Eze 36 "26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh." !!

    And look at that wonderful continuation --

    27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    How wonderful!

    It's such a deep question to go past the fact that God created us and is therefore ultimately the creator of all our good works, as the creator, and then say that we do have real free will, but it really does seem we do, and we are given commands just because we do have a real ability to choose. If we choose to follow Him Who is good, then we will be aided, of course, especially as we walk in faith and as we trust Him and ask for help. The wording of the Lord's Prayer (Matt 6) is more profound than we realize at first reading. It's for deep and profound needs of ours.
     
  12. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of His Creation! Supporter

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    Yes, though here we can see the rich man specifically choose luxuries over the chance to follow Christ, which is so telling and disastrous for him.

    And then also we have that wording "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." and of course that only is understood by having read from the first verse of that chapter, and then even from the first verse of that gospel, and then perhaps only having read at least a gospel once already, at least for me. It means I think that we are to actually put "love your enemies" into actual practice, for instance. Not to already be perfect, but to walk towards the goal He commands to us. But...we can love an enemy when we are on the path, even early on. An everyday miracle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Right, and the first commandment has to do with loving God with everything we have: our soul, minds, and strength. If we love the Father with all we have, then we will confess His Son Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God.

    Luke 10: NKJV

    25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

    26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?

    27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

    28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Paul refers to our 'will' as either in bondage to sin or bondage to God:

    Romans 6: NKJV

    20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    The problem with the SJ movement is that it is secular and the works are glorified by man for man and not for the Glory of God. I would also offer there is nothing really Christlike about demanding other people's money be used to help the poor.

    The real SJ movement are barefoot mendicants using their own resources and donations collected from cheerful hearts to help the poor. Not using government to do the work the church should be doing.

    It's the difference between "Jesusanity" and Christianity:

    Christianity vs. Jesusanity: The Postmodern Temptation

    People may think the SJ movement is doing works for Christ, but given the bed fellows kept who are not Christians this is highly suspect.

    I believe the SJ movement in fact tries to dethrone Jesus Christ.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    No doubt your experience. Let's look at it objectively if we can do so. Some of the largest Christian relief and missionary organizations come from what is considered theologically conservative Evangelical backgrounds. Here are just a small sampling and what they do:

    Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

    Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

    Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

    A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

    Women’s Programs

    Crisis & Disaster Response

    Feeding Programs

    Health & Medical Ministries

    Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

    Children’s Heart Project

    Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

    Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

    U.S. Disaster Relief

    Getting involved in the local community:

    https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
    Pregnancy Centers in PA
    Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
    Christian Life Resources
    Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
    Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
    Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

    These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

    Sanctuary of Hope:

    https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
    The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

    Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
    Counseling
    Help Protect Vulnerable Women


    This was just a simple search as the numbers are too numerous to post.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Isn't that what the serpent was getting at in Genesis 3?
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    As in?
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Incorrect. A liberal would not quote directly from Torah, Prophets and Writings (TaNaKh) to substantiate truth claims.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    That was not his argument, but if you want to run with that....
     
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