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What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Aug 12, 2021.

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  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    @Andrewn

    This thread is not about your pushing Anti-Trinitarian beliefs like Modalism. The OP thread is intended for Traditional Trinitarian Christians. The point of this thread is asking THEM why folks reject the Trinity. Your off topic discussion is derailing the thread’s original intended purpose. Please start a thread on Modalism (or something similar) if that is what you want to defend. This is not the place to push Non-Trinitarianism.
     
  2. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    No one said they were impersonal. Sorry, but I will not keep responding to your straw men. You've got too many unsubstantiated accusations and straw men :).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    When a person attacks the Trinity and says that they are not distinct persons who make up the one true God, they are potentially suggesting they may be impersonal forces by default (Whether they intended to say so or not). A person implies one has a mind, will, and emotions. Three persons that are distinct exist within the Godhead or Trinity (Who makes up one God). But again, this thread is not about pushing Modalism (Which is what you have appeared to be promoting). This thread OP question is asked towards Traditional Trinitarian Christians ONLY as to why people reject the Trinity. You do not appear to qualify to post in this thread because you do not agree with the Trinity. Your discussion has gone against the intended purpose of this thread. So please stop interrupting this thread please.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Did you not argue with me before that 1 John 5:7 was not referring to persons of the Trinity? Whether you agree or not, there ARE people who falsely believe the Holy Spirit to be an impersonal force. But seeing you do not appear to agree with these kinds of people (by your response), my guess is that you may believe that the three in 1 John 5:7 are just names only representing the one person of God (i.e. God the Father). Is that what you believe?

    Anyways, this is not the thread for you to push Non-Trinitarianism, so please do not reply here. This thread was intended for Traditional Trinitarians and why people reject the Trinity. Do you not understand the topic of this thread? Please be respectful and do not continue to interrupt this thread. For how would you like it if somebody kept being disruptive in a thread you created?
     
  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    I told you way back what I meant by my casual use of "into," which is in agreement with all of the above.
    I do not misunderstand the Trinity.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So we understand some reasons why people reject the Trinity.
    I think one main reason is that some do not simply understand it.

    Now, the question is: If a Non-Trinitarian learns to understand the Trinity and sees a valid argument in Scripture for it, does that mean they will change?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    What are the motivations or reasons behind a person rejecting the Trinity?

    I see it as a lack of faith in God's Word.
    For the Word of God teaches the Trinity.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
    So rejecting the Trinity is a form of self imposed bondage.
    It's slavery to a wrong view of God that is not found in the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  9. I John 2:17

    I John 2:17 New Member

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    BibleHighlighter -- "
    What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?"

    Maybe they're put off by your arrogant attitude and extreme verbosity.

    I truly suspect that's at least one reason.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    May God bless you, friend.
    I know discussion of these kinds of topics can get tempers flaring on both sides of the fence.
    Both sides believe they are defending what they think is God reveals Himself to us. But we both cannot be right.
    The bottom line is God’s Word (of course).

    The Trinity:

    The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

    Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

    Here are a couple of quick points:

    #1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
    #2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
    #3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
    #4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
    #5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
    #6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
    #7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

    The Trinity is told to us in one verse.

    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).

    Romans 1:20 says,
    "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

    Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

    Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
    Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
    Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.

    Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts of the Apostles 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    By the way. I really like the verse 1 John 2:17.
     
  12. I John 2:17

    I John 2:17 New Member

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    As for me personally, I try to discern if aspects of "the Trinity" (which I trust we all know is a term not even found in the Bible) have perhaps eluded me my entire Christian life, as well as the doctrinaire pedants and self-appointed gatekeepers of Christian doctrine down through the ages.

    For example there's this verse --

    "No one know the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those whom the Son chooses to reveal Him"

    So an immediate question arises -- where is the Holy Spirit in all this? Not that I don't believe the Holy Spirit exists, but the above seems to be implying an exclusive and unique relationship between the Father and the Son from eternity past that the Holy Spirit is not privy to.

    Well then I discover that in KJV it doesn't say "No one" but rather "No man", but then that's implying that God the father is a man I guess, so maybe "No one" is the correct translation.

    Then there's the fact that God the Father is a Holy Spirit, and God the Son is a Holy Spirit (i.e. "the last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving Spirit" -- 1 Cor) In John, Christ says to the apostles, "I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you." And elsewhere in the N.T. it talks specifically about the "Spirit of Christ" dwelling in you. Well what if the Holy Spirit is just the Spirit of Christ? He also tells the apostles, that it is to their benefit that he goes away, because otherwise the Holy Spirit cannot come. Paul says that now Christ fills the whole universe. So is he the Holy Spirit?

    Then there are other verses that seem to imply a distinct identity to the Holy Spirit, e.g. "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", etc.

    And then on a side note, there is a definite distinctness between the three persons of the trinity (if that concept is valid), e.g. God the Father did not die for the sins of mankind. God the Father did not become a man. So in that regard God the Son seems superior to God the Father. So I can certainly entertain the possibility of three coequal entities -- each having unique attributes the other two do not possess -- existing in absolute equality for all eternity. So in that view you really do have three coequal and distinct Gods for all eternity -- but acting in concert.

    But then, what do you do about the OT saying over and over and over that there is only one God? And what of the possibility of the God of the Old Testament actually being God the Son, because he's constantly appearing as a man -- that's the form he took repeatedly to Moses.

    And then on the question of Christ, I am absolutely convinced from my own research, that whenever it talks in the New Testament about "the only begotten Son of God" it is absolutely referring first to his physical incarnation and birth, and secondly to his resurrection after the crucifixion -- to become equal with God! I do not subscribe to some concept of him being "eternally begotten" which those who do, I suspect don't even comprehend what they're saying. So, I make a proposition that God the Son did have a beginning -- it was his resurrection to "Heaven" at the end of the gospels. But then he extends both forwards and backwards in time for eternity.

    And note that all this speculation on my part is so that I personally will come to a correct understanding of all this -- not so that I can browbeat other people and exclude them off of forums.

    I'm not gonna debate any of the above -- they're all propositions. I don't fully sign off myself on everything I said above.

    But how could Salvation be contingent on correctly understanding "the trinity". Those who think they do are the truly deluded ones.
     
  13. I John 2:17

    I John 2:17 New Member

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    That verse has come to have HUGE importance to me. Basically it's saying that Satan can't win.
     
  14. I John 2:17

    I John 2:17 New Member

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    I guess I'm entertaining the proposition of a Trinity comprising God the father, Jesus of Nazareth, and the eternal Spirit of Christ that extends forward and backward in time for eternity, starting from the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. I realize I would be burned at the stake in the middle ages if I ever said this out loud.

    "eternally begotten" -- maybe he is being begotten repeatedly in an eternal sequence, i.e. God the father is in perhaps an eternal stasis, but God the son has a timeline, a story, he is eternally morphable, changeable, in any case the unique tangible manifestation of the Father.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts of the Apostles 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

    The Trinity is told to us in one verse.

    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).

    Romans 1:20 says,
    "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

    Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

    Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
    Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
    Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.

    This does not make any sense if the word Godhead exclusively means divinity as many teach.

    Making an argument from silence or from not looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word on the matter is a poor way to make a conclusion, friend.

    John 15:26 says, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”

    Not sure how you are confused on Matthew 11:27. It is saying basically that no man can accurately know about God the Father without the Son, and no man can accurately know about the Son without the Father. This is proof of their connection to each other as one God. They are 2 being distinct persons within the Trinity. Jesus said, I and the Father are one (John 10:30). The two are one according to John 10:30. Yet, we know 1 John 5:7 KJB says, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”. So it’s 3 and 1. We see the three mentioned together in many places in Scripture. Teach all nations baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

    I believe at times the Bible can refer to using similar names to different persons of the Godhead. But that is not proof that the different persons are just God the Father putting on a mask or mode (as some teach these days). Jesus says, “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;” (John 14:16). Who was the first comforter? It was Jesus. Another Comforter suggests a different person of the Godhead or Trinity (i.e. the Holy Spirit who is the third person of the Trinity).

    Not sure how you believe Matthew 28:19 is in reference to an identity of the Holy Spirit. Where in that verse do you think it says that? What context suggests that?

    They are coequal in substance as one God.
    God is spirit (John 4:24); And…
    “…there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).

    Yes, I believe Jesus is the One who showed His back parts to Moses in Exodus chapter 33. I know this is the case because we have 33 bones in the back of our spine. I am also aware of many of the pre-incarnate appearance of Christ as the Messenger of the Lord, as well (in the Old Testament).

    Can you give me the exact words in those verses that leads you to that odd conclusion?

    Hebrews 7:3 speaks of Jesus and says this of Him:

    “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

    Yet, you say that his beginning was at the resurrection and this changed time somehow. Where in the Bible does it say that?

    Rules exist on the forum for a reason. I may not always agree with all the rules, but I do strive to play ball by those rules in order to post here. I do happen to agree with their rule on how only those agree with the full deity of Jesus Christ should be allowed to post in the Christians Only section of this forum. For Jesus is from everlasting (Micah 5:2).

    We worship anything other than how God reveals Himself in Scripture is to worship a false god. We cannot make God into our own image or liking. The Israelites in Exodus 32 decided to make a golden calf and say that these were the gods that delivered them out of Egypt. They did not want to wait upon the Lord anymore. Moses did not return. So they made their own god(s) to worship.
     
  16. I John 2:17

    I John 2:17 New Member

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    Reading and considering all this of course. Random points though --

    You keep quoting 1 John 5:7.

    “…there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).

    I presume that somewhere along the line you must have acknowledged this basically only appears in the KJV and literally no other version in existence. I actually only read the KJV now, but it's something I have to consider nonetheless. Also, the Great Commission in the last verse of Matthew, i.e. "baptizing in the name of the father the son and the holy ghost" -- was that tacked on by some anonymous well meaning scribe. Not saying it was, I don't know.

    But on the proposition that perhaps the Holy Spirit is just the spirit of Christ --

    (Luke 12:10) And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

    Was Christ saying you can blaspheme God the Son, but not the Holy Spirit? At the moment, I'm thinking not. He's saying you can be forgiven for blaspheming Jesus of Nazareth, but not the eternal spirit of Christ.

    ------------------------------

    What does "only begotten son" mean.

    If it means "eternally begotten" and Jesus is the only begotten son, then that must mean the Holy Spirit is not begotten, though equal to the Father. Wouldn't that make God the Son somehow inferior to both God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    And if "only begotten son" only refers to Christ's physical incarnation and subsequent resurrection, that would certainly imply that both God the Father and the Holy Spirit were superior to him.

    But the NT talks about every knee bowing to Christ as a result of his obedience to death on the Cross etc. and bestowing him the same honor as the Father. Where does it talk about every knee bowing to the Holy Spirit. Of course, problem solved if the Holy Spirit is just the spirit of Christ.

    And to complicate things even further, the NT describes Christ as "the firstborn among many brothers" and repeatedly describes Christians as "sons of God", etc. Without any doubt, some sort of actual deity bestowed on believers is euphemistically being described here. What does that do to the trinity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I think there are martyrs for false causes. For example: A JW being martyred would not be a martyrdom for a true cause. I also believe in New Testament Non-Resistance and I believe in praying for my enemies, and loving them… so you would have nothing to fear from me.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The problems are numerous in Modern Translations besides the removal of the one and only verse that teaches the Trinity. The devil’s name is placed in Modern Translations where they do not belong.

    The Command To Study God's Word To Show Yourself Approved Unto God is Changed:

    2 Timothy 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Modern Translations are confusing on this point and they say "work hard to present yourself approved unto God." The context is rightly dividing the Word of truth (Scripture). Why is this important? Well, we are living in the last days where men of God are questioning the Bible, or they are looking to something extra in addition to the Bible (like visions, dreams, revelations, prophecies, other holy books, etc.). God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6).

    In Matthew 5:22, Modern Translations remove the words “without a cause” in relation to being angry with your brother.

    The King James correctly includes the words “without a cause,”

    “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22) (KJV).

    Why is this important?

    Because Jesus got angry in Mark 3:5.

    “And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.”
    (Mark 3:5) (KJV).

    But if we are to believe the Modern Translations, then Jesus had sinned by getting angry with his fellow brethren or Jews based on Matthew 5:22. For Modern Translations appear to condemn Jesus for just being angry in general as a sin, when in reality Jesus was specifically referring to being angry without a cause.

    There are 30 reasons why I believe the KJB to be the perfect and pure Word of God for today.
    Here is a CF thread I created on this (if you are interested).

    30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today.

    Jesus said He will send the disciples ANOTHER Comforter.

    “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” (John 14:16-17).

    This again begs the question: WHO is the first Comforter if He is going to send ANOTHER Comforter?
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If you like the KJB, I would recommend getting a Defined King James Bible. It is very helpful. You can check that out in this CF thread here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    He doesn't believe that any other Bible is the word of God - only the KJV.
    I think that's the main reason for the oft repeated quote. Apparently it is "easier" to believe in the Trinity because of 1 John 5:7, and that verse appears in one Bible only, which "proves" that the KJV is the true word of God.
     
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