What are the keys to the kingdom of heaven?

narnia59

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We DON'T see Peter being singled out the way you've been taught to think!
Do you consider the possibility that you're not seeing what's plainly in Scripture because you've been "taught to think" it's not there? That is a two-edged sword you know.

Peter is mentioned in Scripture more than all the other apostles combined.

He alone has his named changed by Christ, to Cephas, meaning Rock.

He received the authority to bind and loose first and separately, then the rest of the apostles receive this authority.

He alone receives the keys to the Kingdom.

He alone is told by Christ that he will build the church on this 'rock'.

Peter alone has the revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Christ.

Peter alone is commissioned to being a Shepherd after the resurrection by Christ in front of the other apostles -- feed my sheep, tend my sheep.

When Christ is not available, the tax collector goes to Peter (no other apostle) to collect the tax for Christ. He acts as Christ's agent. Why doesn't the tax collector go to another apostle -- only a one in 12 chance it would just happen to be Peter. What does Christ do? Does he say "Peter can't act for me?". No, instead he has Peter catch a fish that pay both his and ONLY Peter's tax with a single coin. He presents back to the world that Peter is indeed his agent in a way no other apostle is.

In the Garden of Gethsamane Peter, James and John all fall asleep. Only Peter is held accountable by Christ. Why just him?

There are numerous examples of Peter asking questions and responding to Christ for all of the apostles. Examples of another apostle doing this?

At the Transfiguration Jesus takes Peter, James and John. They are then referred to as "Peter and those who were with him". Why is he separated from the other two?

The angel tells the women to go and tell "Peter and the disciples" that Jesus had risen from the dead. Why does the angel separate him?

Why does Jesus pray only for Peter at the last supper that "when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren"? With the exception of John, they are all going to fall away.

Why aren't we told the stories of the other apostles falling away, only Peter's?

Why does Jesus appear first to Peter after the resurrection before he appears to the apostles as a group?

Why is it Peter who leads the apostles to select a successor for Judas?

Why is Peter who first speaks the word of God on Pentecost?

Why is it Peter who receives the vision from God about the Gentiles coming into the church? Why is Cornelius sent to Peter? Why is it Peter who baptizes the first Gentiles and brings them into the church based on his vision from God, without consulting the rest of the apostles?

Why is Peter the one who settles the dispute between Paul and James over circumcision?

All of this is in Scripture. No other apostles (including Paul) can lay claim to these things. Yet you want me to believe that I only see Peter as being separated from the other apostles because I've been taught that? And you don't try to ignore/not see/minimize these things because you've been taught that?

Build a list like that for any other apostle and I might be convinced.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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JacktheCatholic

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This reference is in John 21. In verse 6 it notes that the net is so full of fish that they (the apostles together), could not haul it in. In verse 11, it says that "So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three of them".

Again, a point in Scripture where Peter is 'separated' from the others. The point?

The significance of the 153? St. Jerome in the 4th century claims that Greek zoologists had identified 153 different kinds of fish. This anticipates how the apostles who have been made fishers of men by Christ will gather believers from every nation into the church.

Read what this ECF had to say on John 21 and catching the fish:

5. Simon Peter, therefore, says, I go a fishing. Those who were with him say unto him, We also go with you. And they went forth, and entered into a ship; and that night they caught nothing. But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore; but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. Then Jesus says unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered Him, No. He says unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and you shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved says unto Peter, It is the Lord. When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his coat unto him, for he was naked, and did cast himself into the sea. And the other disciples came in a little ship (for they were not far from the land, but as it were two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fishes. As soon then as they had come to land, they saw a fire of coals laid, and a fish laid thereon, and bread. Jesus says unto them, Bring of the fish which you have now caught. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
6. This is a great mystery in the great Gospel of John; and to commend it the more forcibly to our attention, the last chapter has been made its place of record. Accordingly, inasmuch as there were seven disciples taking part in that fishing, Peter, and Thomas, and Nathaneal, and the two sons of Zebedee, and two others whose names are withheld, they point, by their septenary number, to the end of time. For there is a revolution of all time in seven days. To this also pertains the statement, that when the morning had come, Jesus stood on the shore; for the shore likewise is the limit of the sea, and signifies therefore the end of the world. The same end of the world is shown also by the act of Peter, in drawing the net to land, that is, to the shore. Which the Lord has Himself elucidated, when in a certain other place He drew His similitude from a fishing net let down into the sea: And they drew it, He said, to the shore. And in explanation of what that shore was, He added, So will it be in the end of the world. Matthew 13:48-49
7. That, however, is a parable in word, not one embodied in outward action; and just as in the passage before us the Lord indicated by an outward action the kind of character the Church would have in the end of the world, so in the same way, by that other fishing, He indicated its present character. In doing the one at the commencement of His preaching and this latter after His resurrection, He showed thereby in the former case that the capture of fishes signified the good and bad presently existing in the Church; but in the latter, the good only, whom it will contain everlastingly, when the resurrection of the dead shall have been completed in the end of this world. Furthermore, on that previous occasion Jesus stood not, as here, on the shore, when He gave orders for the taking of the fish, but entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land; and He sat down therein, and taught the crowds. And when He had left speaking, He said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. There also they put the fishes that were caught into the ship, and did not, as here, draw the net to the shore. By these signs, and any others that may be found, on the former occasion the Church was prefigured as it exists in this world, and on the other, as it shall be in the end of the world: the one accordingly took place before, and the other subsequently to the resurrection of the Lord; because there we were signified by Christ as called, and here as raised from the dead. On that occasion the nets are not let down on the right side, that the good alone might not be signified, nor on the left, lest the application should be limited to the bad; but without any reference to either side, He says, Let down your nets for a draught, that we may understand the good and bad as mingled together: while on this He says, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, to signify those who stood on the right hand, the good alone. There the net was broken on account of the schisms that were meant to be signified; but here, as then there will be no more schisms in that supreme peace of the saints, the evangelist was entitled to say, And for all they were so great, that is, so large, yet was not the net broken; as if with reference to the previous time when it was broken, and a commendation of the good that was here in comparison with the evil that preceded. There the multitude of fishes caught was so great, that the two vessels were filled and began to sink, Luke 5:3-7 that is, were weighed down to the point of sinking; for they did not actually sink, but were in extreme jeopardy. For whence exist in the Church the great evils under which we groan, save from the impossibility of withstanding the enormous multitude that, almost to the entire subversion of discipline, gain an entrance, with their morals so utterly at variance with the pathway of the saints? Here, however, they cast the net on the right side, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. What is meant by the words, Now they were not able to draw it, but this, that those who belong to the resurrection of life, that is to say, to the right hand, and depart this life within the nets of the Christian name, will be made manifest only on the shore, in other words, when they shall rise from the dead at the end of the world? Accordingly, they were not able to draw the nets so as to discharge into the vessel the fishes they had caught, as was done with all of those wherewith the net was broken, and the boats laden to sinking. But the Church possesses those right-hand ones after the close of this life in the sleep of peace, lying hid as it were in the deep, till the net reach the shore whither it is being drawn, as it were two hundred cubits. And as on that first occasion it was done by two vessels, with reference to the circumcision and the uncircumcision; so in this place, by the two hundred cubits, I am of opinion that there is symbolized, with reference to the elect of both classes, the circumcision and the uncircumcision, as it were two separate hundreds; because the number that passes to the right hand is represented summarily by hundreds. And last of all, in that former fishing the number of fishes is not expressed, as if the words were there acted on that were uttered by the prophet, I have declared and spoken; they are multiplied beyond number: while here there are none beyond calculation, but the definite number of a hundred and fifty and three; and of the reason of this number we must now, with the Lord's help, give some account.


AUGUSTINE: CHURCH FATHERS: Tractates on the Gospel of John (Augustine)


LLoJ, You will like this because it interprets John 21 in light of the End of Time.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LLoJ, You will like this because it interprets John 21 in light of the End of Time.
Thank ya Jack.
I doubt if any ECF will interpret the "time of the end" like I do [I look at it as the OC Jews would look at it :p]

Daniel 12:4 And thou Daniye'l, stop-up! the words, and seal! the Scroll till time of end.
They shall go to and fro, many ones, and The Knowledge shall abound.
[Matt 23:15/Luke 11:52/Revelation 22:10]

Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this, that the Time NIGH/egguV <1451> is"
[Revelation 1:3]

Btw, since I am not the only one that voted the Olivet Discourse as all fulfilled, any chance this thread can be brought back to the GT board?
Or at least the Escatology "twilight zone" board :bow:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-31/#post52748967
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled
 
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razeontherock

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Which has been my point all along, Narnia. It does appear that all the dogma serves primarily to keep you from beholding the glory that is available now. For example, if you want to consider names being changed:

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
 
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narnia59

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Which has been my point all along, Narnia. It does appear that all the dogma serves primarily to keep you from beholding the glory that is available now. For example, if you want to consider names being changed:

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
And exactly what glory do you think I'm not beholding?

So do you think there was not a church authority structure in the NT at all?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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He alone has his named changed by Christ, to Cephas, meaning Rock.

Incorrect. SAUL - PAUL changed by Christ.

He received the authority to bind and loose first and separately, then the rest of the apostles receive this authority.

Incorrect. Peter was not alone with Christ.

He alone receives the keys to the Kingdom.

Incorrect. The authority to 'bless the gifts' and baptise, and forgive sin, was given to others.

Defining the KEYS!

He alone is told by Christ that he will build the church on this 'rock'.

Incorrect. Peters' statement is the 'rock' not Peter himself according to ALL the other Ancient Sees. Christ changed Peters' name as an honorarium to the event.


Do you deny that the others recieved the same Holy Spirit?

Do you deny that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem? And head of council?

Do you deny that Peter served his first bishopric at Antioch?

Do you deny that Antioch is the second oldest Christian community? (Jerusalem 33AD, Antioch 34AD)

Your Church denies the idea that the Bishops were equals in council.

One Bishop. One community. One vote.

'We' say Peter was the first among equals of Apostles.

BTW ~ You do agree that James was an older brother of Christ... correct?

You are not defining the keys by the way...

Forgive me...
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Saint Ambrose of Milan (340 AD to 397 AD)
Ambrose of Milan - OrthodoxWiki

57. Moreover, that you may know that it is after His Manhood that He entreats, and in virtue of His Godhead that He commands, it is written for you in the Gospel that He said to Peter: I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not. Luke 22:32 To the same Apostle, again, when on a former occasion he said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God, He made answer: You are Peter, and upon this Rock will I build My Church, and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 16:18 Could He not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on His own authority, He gave the kingdom, whom He called the Rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church? Consider, then, the manner of His entreaty, the occasions of His commanding. He entreats, when He is shown to us as on the eve of suffering: He commands, when He is believed to be the Son of God.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34044.htm
 
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narnia59

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Incorrect. SAUL - PAUL changed by Christ.
Sorry, but Saul's name was not changed to Paul by Christ.


Incorrect. Peter was not alone with Christ.
I did not say he was alone with Christ, I said he received the authority first and separetely. Peter receives the authority to bind and loose first (Matthew 16) along with the keys, the apostles collectively receive the authority to bind and loose with no mention of the keys (Matthew 18)


Incorrect. The authority to 'bless the gifts' and baptise, and forgive sin, was given to others.


Defining the KEYS!
Yes that authority was given to all the apostles. The keys Jesus gives Peter are a reference to Isaiah 22, an office of stewardship.


Incorrect. Peters' statement is the 'rock' not Peter himself according to ALL the other Ancient Sees. Christ changed Peters' name as an honorarium to the event.
Christ changes Simon's name to 'rock' at their first meeting, long before the event of his statement of faith.

Do you deny that the others recieved the same Holy Spirit?
Not at all.

Do you deny that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem? And head of council?
James was Bishop of Jerusalem. Head of the council -- I see no evidence for that. The dispute over circumcision was between James and Paul. James was in the wrong. After Peter silences the debate with his testimomy, James concedes his position and brings it in line with the view of Peter and Paul.

Do you deny that Peter served his first bishopric at Antioch?
He was the first bishop there. Whether that was his first bishopric, couldn't say.

Do you deny that Antioch is the second oldest Christian community? (Jerusalem 33AD, Antioch 34AD)
Not at all.

Your Church denies the idea that the Bishops were equals in council.
Our method of determining whether a council is ecumenical is that the canons are agreed to by the bishops and accepted by the Pope. From what I can tell, at this point the Orthodox cannot even agree on what makes a council ecumenical at all.

One Bishop. One community. One vote.
Source?

'We' say Peter was the first among equals of Apostles.
Okay. He sure gets a lot of unequal time in Scripture.

BTW ~ You do agree that James was an older brother of Christ... correct?
Not sure. He is not James, the brother of John. But if you're correct and he is the elder brother of the Lord, then my original statement that he is not one of the original twelve apostles is also correct.

You are not defining the keys by the way...
I would suppose that depends on whose definition.

Forgive me...
Of course. And right back at you.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Not only does the EOC recognize the Saint Ambrose of Milan but also Saint John Chrysostom.

Saint John Chrysostom wrote concerning the Keys:

3. What then says Christ? You are Simon, the son of Jonas; you shall be called Cephas. Thus since you have proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begot you; all but saying, As you are son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father. Else it were superfluous to say, You are Son of Jonas; but since he had said, Son of God, to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begot Him, therefore He added this, And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; Matthew 16:18 that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because you are shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.
Then He mentions also another honor. And I also will give you the keys of the heavens. But what is this, And I also will give you? As the Father has given you to know me, so will I also give you.
And He said not, I will entreat the Father (although the manifestation of His authority was great, and the largeness of the gift unspeakable), but, I will give you. What dost Thou give? Tell me. The keys of the heavens, that whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in Heaven. How then is it not His to give to sit on His right hand, and on His left, Matthew 20:23 when He says, I will give you?
Do you see how He, His own self, leads Peter on to high thoughts of Him, and reveals Himself, and implies that He is Son of God by these two promises? For those things which are peculiar to God alone, (both to absolve sins, and to make the church in capable of overthrow in such assailing waves, and to exhibit a man that is a fisher more solid than any rock, while all the world is at war with him), these He promises Himself to give; as the Father, speaking to Jeremiah, said, He would make him as a brazen pillar, and as a wall; Jeremiah 1:18 but him to one nation only, this man in every part of the world.
I would fain inquire then of those who desire to lessen the dignity of the Son, which manner of gifts were greater, those which the Father gave to Peter, or those which the Son gave him? For the Father gave to Peter the revelation of the Son; but the Son gave him to sow that of the Father and that of Himself in every part of the world; and to a mortal man He entrusted the authority over all things in Heaven, giving him the keys; who extended the church to every part of the world, and declared it to be stronger than heaven. For heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35 How then is He less, who has given such gifts, has effected such things?
And these things I say, not dividing the works of Father and Son (for all things are made by Him, and without Him was nothing made which was made): but bridling the shameless tongue of them that dare so to speak.
But see, throughout all, His authority: I say unto you, You are Peter; I will build the Church; I will give you the keys of Heaven.

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 54 on Matthew (Chrysostom)
 
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narnia59

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Not only does the EOC recognize the Saint Ambrose of Milan but also Saint John Chrysostom.

Saint John Chrysostom wrote concerning the Keys:



CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 54 on Matthew (Chrysostom)

Here's a good Chrysostom quote on John 21:19

Here again He alludes to his tender carefulness, and to his being very closely attached to Himself. And if any should say, How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem? I would make this reply, that He appointed Peter teacher, not of the chair, but of the world.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240188.htm
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Here's a good Chrysostom quote on John 21:19

Here again He alludes to his tender carefulness, and to his being very closely attached to Himself. And if any should say, How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem? I would make this reply, that He appointed Peter teacher, not of the chair, but of the world.

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 88 on the Gospel of John (Chrysostom)


Yes it is. :thumbsup:

It is the Chair of Peter and not the Chair of James. ;)


John 21:19

This spoke He, signifying by what death he should glorify God.
He said not, Should die, but, Should glorify God, that you may learn, that to suffer for Christ, is glory and honor to the sufferer.
And when He had spoken this, He says, Follow Me.
Here again He alludes to his tender carefulness, and to his being very closely attached to Himself. And if any should say, How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem? I would make this reply, that He appointed Peter teacher, not of the chair, but of the world.
From your link. :)
 
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razeontherock

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James was Bishop of Jerusalem. Head of the council -- I see no evidence for that. The dispute over circumcision was between James and Paul. James was in the wrong. After Peter silences the debate with his testimomy, James concedes his position and brings it in line with the view of Peter and Paul.

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"


I don't see anything like your claim. Source? And why does RC need to minimize this interaction between Peter and Paul?
 
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razeontherock

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From Jack's quote of John Chrysostom:

"And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; Matthew 16:18 that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because you are shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified."

I haven't read him yet, but this encourages me to! Not only does he get it right that Peter is NOT the rock, but this sure seems like rightly dividing the Word to me :thumbsup:
 
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JacktheCatholic

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From Jack's quote of John Chrysostom:

"And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; Matthew 16:18 that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because you are shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified."

I haven't read him yet, but this encourages me to! Not only does he get it right that Peter is NOT the rock, but this sure seems like rightly dividing the Word to me :thumbsup:


I could add more but would prefer you read more. :)
 
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ivebeenshown

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Was St. Paul given authority to baptise and to ask the blessing over the offerings?

The cup that we bless...

Was he given this Authority by Peter?

Forgive me...

Actually, where in the bible does it tell us who can give thanks for bread and cup, thank you. :)
 
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hedrick

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The passage where Peter is given the keys is part of Jesus' response to his recognition of Jesus as the Messiah, as is the declaration that he is the rock. Thus the obvious suggestion is that the keys are based on this recognition. I.e. that the keys to the kingdom are the Gospel, although I don't object to including also the proper administration of the sacraments. Note Mat 23:13 where the Pharisees are said to lock people out of the kingdom, by improper teaching. If this is true, it's not so much authority as responsibility. Proper preaching of the Gospel and administration of the sacrament is the primary way people come to salvation, so where it's not done people may be locked out of the kingdom, unless God intervenes.

Binding and loosing has a Jewish background. The Word commentary says "In its primary meaning, the phrase &#8220;binding and loosing&#8221; refers to the allowing and disallowing of certain conduct, based on an interpretation of the commandments of the Torah, and thus it concerns the issue of whether or not one is in proper relationship to the will of God (contrast the reference to the Pharisees&#8217; misuse of their authority [note implied keys!] in 23:13)." Peter, and by extension the Church, is responsible for applying Jesus' teachings to current circumstances, and thus interpreting the Gospel, as the rabbis did the Torah. Again, this would not be the authority to arbitrarily include or exclude people, but a responsibility to interpret Jesus' words wisely. Obviously applying the Gospel to practical situations is a companion to preaching the Gospel. The comment about being bound in heaven suggests that God gives the Church a certain leeway in doing this interpretation, so that it may make actual decisions about what is proper and improper (although it's hard to believe that Jesus would intend this as a completely arbitrary authority).

I would say that the keys and loosing and binding are a responsibility of the leaders of every church community, and that all leaders are accountable for how they are used.
 
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