What are some examples of losing salvation?

[redleghunter]

It was meant to be a spiritual state that unfortunately many today embrace as the means of salvation, because they had a one day/night eureka moment with Christ and they lead themselves to believe that Christ will honour them in his Father's house regardless of their spiritual state throughout their lives after this point or even post mortem.

I compared it as a one night spiritual stand because many think that that night or day sealed it for them and they have earned Christ's loyalty forever even though their loyalty is somewhere else with a one night stand with the world.



Zechariah 13:9
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'"

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

The Spirit of God is the spiritual purgation fire that changes a justified person who had been through the purifying water of Christ from a person governed by a mind of flesh to a mind governed by the Spirit of God (Romans 8).

Water purifies, that is, it justifies and this is the finished works of Christ.

The Spirit burns away the old man and creates the new man in Christ.

If there is no change in the spiritual state of a person then you can drown him in purifying waters and he will be no spiritually cleaner at the other end.

Is this your version of baptismal regeneration?

 

[HatGuy]

The problem is how you view the atonement. If you believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement, you believe God legalistically imputes you righteousness without you having to change any behavior. If you believe in Christus Victor like me, you will believe that God is giving you the chance to achieve theosis and be partaker of the divine nature, for that reason you can stop looking toward God, thus "losing salvation".

What if you adhere to both of these?

I do. So did Luther and many of the early Reformers it seems .

 

[JIMINZ]

Please read Hebrews 9

In Hebrews 9 did you take note of what was said in verse 12?

Heb 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

ETERNAL:
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

1) He has obtained. Is there any stipulation anywhere, as to when Redemption will be applied?
2) Eternal. The Definition has been supplied above.
3) Redemption.
4) For Us.

Eph. 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Therefore the Redemption having been Obtained for us by Christ, has been applied to us during Baptism, and is Eternal from the time of receiving.

For I do not live to myself or die to myself because.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[JIMINZ]

you have not yet finished your race of faith in order to be judged post mortem.

where he will determine you to either make the cut or not post mortum.

but is only determined post mortem,

Our salvation is guareenteed post mortem

Postmortem seems to be a very big sticking point with you.

1) Do you not know you are Dead in Christ?
2) Do you not know you are dead to the Flesh?
3) Do you not know you are crucified with Christ and raised with His Resurrection.

You Are Dead!.... He has determined we made the cut Postmortem, our Salvation has been guaranteed Postmortem.

 

[Haydee]

Do we lose it like we lose a set of car keys? Does someone just tip their hat to God and decide they don't want eternal life anymore?

I'm not sure how this works.

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17)

"Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,"

"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"

And yes I understand Faith doesn't mean say a prayer or agree. Faith is something that is alive. And part of that faith is believing that Jesus is the Lord, so if you believe he is your Lord then you will do what he says. I don't see how those 2 are separated.

"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

I think you can lose your salvation if you aren't walking with God. 1 John supports this.
You can't continually sin without wanting to change and expect to keep your salvation. It's not logical.

1 John 2:3-4 ESV
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Rescued One]

Why does Jesus warn His faithful 11 apostles about abiding if they cannot turn away? Why would He warn them about doing something that is impossible and explain the consequences?

The word of God is not only for the audience that was there with Christ. And it is not only for believers today. We need to be informed. I wasn't informed before joining the LDS church. I was caught up in a false religion and often very tired with many responsibilities. There are many people attending churches who have never been born again. We are supposed to be reading our Bibles and learning what God is teaching us. We are supposed to believe what God says:

Deuteronomy 31
16 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Hebrews 13
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

2 Timothy 3
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

God uses His word to bring people to Christ. He used it to show me that I needed Christ, not Joseph Smith. All scripture is necessary for our instruction and for warning our neighbors. God warned me and taught me when I started reading my Bible!

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Acts 13
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and
blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

We can't teach others without knowing that there is life and death. The word of God instructs us and new members to walk in the light. My neighbors didn't warn me, but the Holy Spirit told me to read my Bible.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes Jesus is saying I chose you to go and bear fruit I didn’t choose you so that you would stop bearing fruit. Your not reading it correctly. If Jesus was saying He chose them so that they would always bear fruit as a result of Jesus choosing them and they were incapable of not producing fruit and not abiding then in verses 1-8 Jesus is warning them to abide and bear fruit when they have no control over whether or not they will bear fruit. Jesus would be warning them about doing something that would be impossible. So I’m sorry friend but that cannot be correct.

We don't want to obey Him until we love Him. When we receive the new birth we know He gave His life for us. If we stumble we have an advocate. And the Holy Spirit convicts us of the stupid things we say and do. We are sad when we realize we've sinned and we receive help:

 

[Loyce KG]

I think you can lose your salvation if you aren't walking with God. 1 John supports this.
You can't continually sin without wanting to change and expect to keep your salvation. It's not logical.

1 John 2:3-4 ESV
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

No my dear. The quoted scripture is pointing to the evidence of salvation or true saving faith. If we keep His commandments (obedience to God), then we know for sure that we are saved. Those who do lip service and don't bear fruit did not know Him in the first place.
The book of 1 John establishes three evidential markers for a believer; Knowing God, Abiding in Him, Being in the Light. All three are a work of the Holy spirit and the believer's response is by yielding to the Spirit. No one can lose salvation.

 

[JIMINZ]

1 John 2:3-4 ESV
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I think you can lose your salvation if you aren't walking with God. 1 John supports this.
You can't continually sin without wanting to change and expect to keep your salvation. It's not logical.

What is it that makes you unable to understand, when it says Highlighted above.

It means he is a liar, which means he doesn't know Jesus, = Un-Saved

The truth being a relationship with Jesus.

 

[Kenny'sID]

John 6:47. If one can lose eternal life in Christ, then Christ has failed.

Nope but some of you eat that stuff up and actually parrot it to others when it's really just something those who want to fool themselves would believe. See comments like that are designed to fool the unaware and those who choose the "I can do like i want and still go to heaven", something they choose simple because they don't want to do as God says....that simple.

See the trickery in that statement the trickery you fell for? if you disagree, then you are saying Christ is a failure so you have to agree, that is if you can't or choose not to see through it and the person/preacher spouting that nonsense. It's so simple to refute. If we lose eternal life, of course Christ didn't fail, we did.

 

[Loyce KG]

Nope but some of you eat that stuff up and actually parrot it to others when it's really just something those who want to fool themselves would believe. See comments like that are designed to fool the unaware and those who choose the "I can do like i want and still go to heaven", something they choose simple because they don't want to do as God says....that simple.

See the trickery in that statement the trickery you fell for? if you disagree, then you are saying Christ is a failure so you have to agree, that is if you can't or choose not to see through it and the person/preacher spouting that nonsense. It's so simple to refute. If we lose eternal life, of course Christ didn't fail, we did.

We are saved by grace and walk by grace. The entire book of Romans and Galatians pays homage to that. Salvation is a work of God (ephesians 2;8-9), and those who believe in the finished work of Jesus are declared righteous not by virtue of their continous good works but what Christ has already done (this is the message of justification and reconciliation). There is nothing one can do to earn salvation and therefore nothing to lose it. Eternal life is a GIFT of God;

The famous verse John 3:16 says,' For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him SHALL not perish but have eternal Life." The issue is belief or faith. The kind of faith that saves is mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Salvation includes conversion into a new creation (2 Cor 5:17), redemption or a price is paid with the blood of Jesus (1 Peter 1;18-19), justification which is by faith alone (Romans 5;1, 3:24-28), glorification (Romans 8:1), sealing with the Holy spirit (ephesians 1:13-14) and sanctification till we meet our Lord.

salvation is a gift of God and can't be lost because God's gifts are irrevocable:Romans 11;29.

 

[BNR32FAN]

By that time the disciples knew Judas was not with them and John the Beloved knew why. This is about why they were still there and not Judas.

I’m not sure what you mean friend. Are you saying John knew why Judas left before Jesus was betrayed?

Given what Jesus told them in chapters 12-14, and Judas leaving, the discourse on the True Vine is Christ reassuring His beloved and chosen 11.


And they needed that. They would all soon flee Him and Peter betray Him.

Did they lose their salvation when they cut and ran? Did Peter apostosize when he denied Christ? I say no. But if we are going to use these passages to apply to us as losing salvation we must yield to exegesis and determine if the apostles themselves lost salvation when they cut and run. Was Peter abiding in the Vine when he denied the Christ the Son of God?

I don’t see anything reassuring them I see a warning. Why explain the consequences of something they cannot do? This was an ultimatum. For example

“Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.

I’ll use another more accurate translation here.

John 15:4

4 remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.

This does not look like an assurance. An assurance would not be using an interjectional clause. An assurance would be saying you will abide in me not if you abide in me.

“Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted!”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-7‬ ‭

Again I will use the Greek linear translation for a more accurate translation.

John 15:6

6 if any one may not remain in me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned;

Again the word “if” does not indicate an assurance. It indicates an alternative option. There is nothing in the chapter that indicates an assurance that they will abide. The context indicates they have a choice to make. We do not lose our free will to rebel against God at any time after we become a Christian. This same concept can be seen in James 2:14-26. If the 12 tribes had no choice whether they would do good works or not this message would be irrelevant and meaningless. Again their salvation depends upon their choice. Notice verse 14 James gives an example of a saving faith.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭

Can that faith that doesn’t produce faith save him? James speaks of two types of faith. There’s a saving faith which produces works and there is a dead and useless or barren faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. Verses 17 & 20 give examples of a dead and useless faith. Verse 14 shows that salvation is contingent on what type of faith we have. It is not our works that we are saved by but the type of faith. Personally I believe this is contingent on whether we have the ability and opportunity to do good works. I believe the thief on the cross is an example of someone who has a saving faith but didn’t have the ability and opportunity to do good works. Jesus knew his heart and I am willing to bet that the thief would’ve produced fruit if given the opportunity. Otherwise according to James 2:14 and John 15:6 he wouldn’t have been saved.

Another example Matthew 25:31-46. Why were the goats condemned? Many people say it is because they were not true believers. But that is not mentioned in the passage. Jesus specifically says exactly why they were condemned in verses 42 & 43.

“For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:42-43‬

The goats did not produce fruit. They didn’t abide in Christ.

In answer to your question did the apostles lose their salvation when they cut & ran, no they didn’t lose their salvation they repented. I think that is very easy to see.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe this passage speaks of fruit-bearing and obedience...not so much salvation. When a person is saved they are in Union with Christ and are to be fruitful. If we are here to bear fruit and are not doing it, we do not need to be here physically anymore.

Are you saying verse 6 is pertaining to physical death? If so how can that result in salvation if the person is cut off from the vine as mentioned in verse 2?

 

[BNR32FAN]

First off, in the light of the viticultural practices of New Testament times, the phrase "takes away" is actually better translated as "lifts up" or "takes up." The Greek word "airo" translated in verse 2 as "takes away" is actually the verb "to lift." The following quotation explains why "takes away" is a faulty translation:

Actually that is incorrect my friend. Please take a closer look at the definition pertaining to something that is attached.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease


Grammar:

a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare נָשָׂא) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Furthermore look at the definition of the word cast or throw used in verse 6.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

cast


G906


Lemma:

βάλλω


Transliteration:

bállō


Pronounce:

bal'-lo


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert

Grammar:

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω.

 

[Neostarwcc]

It's simple. You cannot lose salvation. It is impossible for a born again believer to become "unborn" again. When Jesus promised to lose none of those the Father gives him in John 6:39-40 he meant it.

But lets say for the sake of argument you COULD lose your salvation. To lose your salvation you would have to abandon the faith until death. But it is impossible for a true born again believer to do this. But IF it were possible for a born again believer to lose their salvation that would be how its done.

 

[JacksBratt]

Did you notice who Jesus was speaking to? Notice how many times Jesus says to them “you”.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-8‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Why does Jesus warn His faithful 11 apostles about abiding if they cannot turn away? Why would He warn them about doing something that is impossible and explain the consequences?

Exactly.. who is Jesus speaking to?

His apostles. Who were given an immense task of perpetuating His word and even penning the canon. They were held to a very special level. They were also eye witnesses of Christ and His work... Saul/Paul was given a vision.

We have verses that are directed an the whole of the world that state simply... Believe in Him... and "I will not leave you or forsake you" ...

Salvation is not difficult.. it is not a task... however, it is totally beyond any humans ability... Therefore... it is a free gift and once you are adopted into the family of Christ and become a new creature... He does not turn you back into the old creature... nor does He kick you out of the family.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Exactly.. who is Jesus speaking to?

His apostles. Who were given an immense task of perpetuating His word and even penning the canon. They were held to a very special level. They were also eye witnesses of Christ and His work... Saul/Paul was given a vision.

We have verses that are directed an the whole of the world that state simply... Believe in Him... and "I will not leave you or forsake you" ...

Salvation is not difficult.. it is not a task... however, it is totally beyond any humans ability... Therefore... it is a free gift and once you are adopted into the family of Christ and become a new creature... He does not turn you back into the old creature... nor does He kick you out of the family.

Brother that still doesn’t answer the question why does Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles to abide if they cannot fail to abide. Why is he warning them not to do something that is impossible?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I've addressed this passage so many times in conversation with those who hold to a saved-and-lost doctrine! I detest the NLT, so I'm going to quote the passage from the NASB:

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

First off, in the light of the viticultural practices of New Testament times, the phrase "takes away" is actually better translated as "lifts up" or "takes up." The Greek word "airo" translated in verse 2 as "takes away" is actually the verb "to lift." The following quotation explains why "takes away" is a faulty translation:

"The approach of most exegetes is to see in Jesus’ words a process by which farmers pick off the adventitious sprigs from the fruiting branches (cleanses them) and cut off nonfruiting branches (takes them away). This interpretation of ai[rei, however, contradicts the evidence from Pliny that nonfruiting branches were preserved and nurtured for use the following season. It would be better to see Jesus indicating what actually occurred during the spring, namely, certain nonfruiting branches were tied to the trellises along with the fruiting branches while the side shoots of the fruiting branches were being “cleaned up.” "

(Gary Derickson, "Viticulture and John 15:1-6")

Verse 2, then, was not indicating that a person may lose their salvation (ie. is "taken away") but that the unfruitful branch in the vine (ie. a saved person) was lifted up and supported on a trellis, as was the practice of the time.

Verse 6 is clearly speaking of someone who is not saved. By definition, one who is saved is abiding in Christ. One who is not in him, one who is not in the Vine, is one who has not been saved. Such a person is likened to a branch that is "cast forth and burned" which accords well with other verses that speak of the eternal fate of the lost. This is why Christ does not use the pronoun "you" at all in verse 6.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do we lose it like we lose a set of car keys? Does someone just tip their hat to God and decide they don't want eternal life anymore?

I'm not sure how this works.

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17)

"Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,"

"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"

And yes I understand Faith doesn't mean say a prayer or agree. Faith is something that is alive. And part of that faith is believing that Jesus is the Lord, so if you believe he is your Lord then you will do what he says. I don't see how those 2 are separated.

"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Judas was once saved and lost it...

 

[MDC]

Nope but some of you eat that stuff up and actually parrot it to others when it's really just something those who want to fool themselves would believe. See comments like that are designed to fool the unaware and those who choose the "I can do like i want and still go to heaven", something they choose simple because they don't want to do as God says....that simple.

See the trickery in that statement the trickery you fell for? if you disagree, then you are saying Christ is a failure so you have to agree, that is if you can't or choose not to see through it and the person/preacher spouting that nonsense. It's so simple to refute. If we lose eternal life, of course Christ didn't fail, we did.

“I can do like I want and still go to heaven” lol! And what makes you think the person who says such a thing is saved when this person bears the fruit of an unbeliever who lacks repentance? Pushing antinomianism to justify this false doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ, only shows the trickery of those promoting such nonsense. You and I will always fail to measure up to a perfect righteousness, which is only found in Christ