What are Progressive/Evangelical views on Des Ford Investigative Judgement Thesis

[tall73]

For me, the major issue with the Antiochus theory...where is that consistent with any other chapter in Daniel or Revelation?

I have said many times I don't think it is about Antiochus.

Nor did I say anything about Antiochus in my post.

Apparently you just say whatever comes to mind whether it relates to what you are responding to or not.

 

[tall73]

Exactly. See here is the problem,
.

The problem is you haven't explained how you get 457 bc out of Daniel 8

 

[AdamjEdgar]

The problem is you haven't explained how you get 457 bc out of Daniel 8

ok. Here is my current view on the relevance of Daniel 8 to Daniel 7, Daniel 2 and Revelation 13.

I will just put a quick summary of my reasoning currently (and this is pretty much straight off the top of my head without having had any coffee and stuck on the thinking hat)

I think first and foremost in studying these prophecies one has to be resolute in first understanding the theme of the entire book of daniel and this starts with his first vision. Everything else that follows must stay true to that theme and its highlighted in Chapter 2 (note in particular the last part of verse 28)

1In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams that troubled his spirit, and sleep escaped him.
5The king replied to the astrologers, “My word is final: If you do not tell me the dream and its interpretation, you will be cut into pieces and your houses will be reduced to rubble.
11What the king requests is so difficult that no one can tell it to him except the gods, whose dwelling is not with mortals.”
27Daniel answered the king, “No wise man, enchanter, medium, or magician can explain to the king the mystery of which he inquires. 28But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the latter days.​

**most of the common translations use "latter days" here.

The Amplified bible goes even further and adds "end of days"...

but there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days (end of days)
​

The JPS Tanakh 1917

but there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and He hath made known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the end of days.​

So we have the following outline of visions God illustrated to Daniel leading up to the last days of the world...these are not merely about the last days of Nebuchadnezzar's reign...I do not believe any genuine research can interpret vs 28 is talking about that (Nebuchadnezzar has only just come to the throne and the overriding theme of chapter 2 irrefutably conflicts with that view)...this is very clearly about the distant future!

So we have:

Daniel 2 - Nebuchadnezzars dream about the future of the world from his time unto the Second coming of Jesus (kingdoms of Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome, mixed kingdoms of Iron and Clay, finally second coming of Jesus)

Daniel 7 - more specific vision that now uses animals instead of earthly kings (Lion, Bear, Leopard, Awful beast...perhaps a dragon?) Daniel asks for specifics about this fourth beast...it is very clearly the final kingdom before the second coming as most believe that kingdom is fulfilling Bible prophecy now, although there is debate on whether or not it is driven by Papal Rome (I believe its the characteristics of this power that are really what are most important for this discussion, not specifically who it is)

​

Daniel 8 - a close look at the two kingdoms most relevant to Daniel at the time they are given...he is under the rulership of Babylon, however, it is about the be overthrown by the Medes and Persians. The most obvious links i see between the Ram in this chapter and the bear in ch 7:

1. the description of the "lopsided" nature of this Ram. You recall in Ch 7 the bear is also lopsided
2. the dream is obviously of future kingdoms...just like in ch 2 and 8
3. Antiochus Epiphanes - there are well-known insurmountable problems with this theory. When examined closely it can be seen that there is truth with error mixed into that narrative that simply does not fulfill bible prophecies...clearly, God has demonstrated that he sets the timeline not Satan...this attempt by the forces of evil in producing that counterfeit was a failure!
4. The deifying of Alexandar the Great by the Romans...that clearly establishes a strong link between the little horn that does not have eyes and ears and the one that does...and this link very obviously extends to Revelation 13
5. Also, the beast in Rev 13 is clearly about Daniel 7

2The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion​

6. The link with papacy...Rev 13:3 - this was fulfilled by Napolean when he took the pope prisoner around 1796-98

3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be mortally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world marveled and followed the beast.
​

What is really significant about the rise of Napolean is that he quickly realized that, just like Constantine centuries before, the power of religion (the beliefs of the people) equaled that of military might. Napolean could gain power in battle, but that was not enough for long term stability and the survival of his throne...

Napoleon realized the importance of religion as a means to increase obedience and his power and control over the French. It was not until the conclave of Cardinals had gathered to elect a new Pope that Napoleon decided to bury Pope Pius VI who had died several weeks earlier. He gave him a gaudy ceremony in an effort to gain the attention of the Catholic Church.
​

There we have evidence of the importance of the joining of state and false Christian religion...the little horn as was the case with Constantine a millennia before.

I think this is also the significance of its eyes and mouth which was not the case in the time of Greece.

EDIT...oh i found this quote from Enclopedia Britannica concerning imprisoning of Pope Pius VI...

Pius VI, whose death in French captivity marked a collapse of the church’s central administration.
​

I also have this theory that the reason why God had daniel shut up the book until the time of the end is that this is fulfilled in modern readers being able to work backward in time to understand the meanings of the visions given to Daniel (and also to John in Revelation). Clearly, much of the prophetic time was still in the distant future even beyond John the revelator's time...I think this theory of mine (im sure many others have same) explains the prophetic visions timeline after Jesus ascension, throughout the middle ages period right up to 1844 extremely well.

 

[tall73]

ok. Here is my current view on the relevance of Daniel 8 to Daniel 7, Daniel 2 and Revelation 13.

I will just put a quick summary of my reasoning currently (and this is pretty much straight off the top of my head without having had any coffee and stuck on the thinking hat)

I think first and foremost in studying these prophecies one has to be resolute in first understanding the theme of the entire book of daniel and this starts with his first vision. Everything else that follows must stay true to that theme and its highlighted in Chapter 2 (note in particular the last part of verse 28)

1In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams that troubled his spirit, and sleep escaped him.
5The king replied to the astrologers, “My word is final: If you do not tell me the dream and its interpretation, you will be cut into pieces and your houses will be reduced to rubble.
11What the king requests is so difficult that no one can tell it to him except the gods, whose dwelling is not with mortals.”
27Daniel answered the king, “No wise man, enchanter, medium, or magician can explain to the king the mystery of which he inquires. 28But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the latter days.​

**most of the common translations use "latter days" here.

The Amplified bible goes even further and adds "end of days"...

but there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days (end of days)
​

The JPS Tanakh 1917

but there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and He hath made known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the end of days.​

So we have the following outline of visions God illustrated to Daniel leading up to the last days of the world...these are not merely about the last days of Nebuchadnezzar's reign...I do not believe any genuine research can interpret vs 28 is talking about that (Nebuchadnezzar has only just come to the throne and the overriding theme of chapter 2 irrefutably conflicts with that view)...this is very clearly about the distant future!

So we have:

Daniel 2 - Nebuchadnezzars dream about the future of the world from his time unto the Second coming of Jesus (kingdoms of Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome, mixed kingdoms of Iron and Clay, finally second coming of Jesus)

Daniel 7 - more specific vision that now uses animals instead of earthly kings (Lion, Bear, Leopard, Awful beast...perhaps a dragon?) Daniel asks for specifics about this fourth beast...it is very clearly the final kingdom before the second coming as most believe that kingdom is fulfilling Bible prophecy now, although there is debate on whether or not it is driven by Papal Rome (I believe its the characteristics of this power that are really what are most important for this discussion, not specifically who it is)

​

Daniel 8 - a close look at the two kingdoms most relevant to Daniel at the time they are given...he is under the rulership of Babylon, however, it is about the be overthrown by the Medes and Persians. The most obvious links i see between the Ram in this chapter and the bear in ch 7:

1. the description of the "lopsided" nature of this Ram. You recall in Ch 7 the bear is also lopsided
2. the dream is obviously of future kingdoms...just like in ch 2 and 8
3. Antiochus Epiphanes - there are well-known insurmountable problems with this theory. When examined closely it can be seen that there is truth with error mixed into that narrative that simply does not fulfill bible prophecies...clearly, God has demonstrated that he sets the timeline not Satan...this attempt by the forces of evil in producing that counterfeit was a failure!
4. The deifying of Alexandar the Great by the Romans...that clearly establishes a strong link between the little horn that does not have eyes and ears and the one that does...and this link very obviously extends to Revelation 13
5. Also, the beast in Rev 13 is clearly about Daniel 7

2The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion​

6. The link with papacy...Rev 13:3 - this was fulfilled by Napolean when he took the pope prisoner around 1796-98

3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be mortally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world marveled and followed the beast.
​

What is really significant about the rise of Napolean is that he quickly realized that, just like Constantine centuries before, the power of religion (the beliefs of the people) equaled that of military might. Napolean could gain power in battle, but that was not enough for long term stability and the survival of his throne...

Napoleon realized the importance of religion as a means to increase obedience and his power and control over the French. It was not until the conclave of Cardinals had gathered to elect a new Pope that Napoleon decided to bury Pope Pius VI who had died several weeks earlier. He gave him a gaudy ceremony in an effort to gain the attention of the Catholic Church.
​

There we have evidence of the importance of the joining of state and false Christian religion...the little horn as was the case with Constantine a millennia before.

I think this is also the significance of its eyes and mouth which was not the case in the time of Greece.

EDIT...oh i found this quote from Enclopedia Britannica concerning imprisoning of Pope Pius VI...

Pius VI, whose death in French captivity marked a collapse of the church’s central administration.
​

I also have this theory that the reason why God had daniel shut up the book until the time of the end is that this is fulfilled in modern readers being able to work backward in time to understand the meanings of the visions given to Daniel (and also to John in Revelation). Clearly, much of the prophetic time was still in the distant future even beyond John the revelator's time...I think this theory of mine (im sure many others have same) explains the prophetic visions timeline after Jesus ascension, throughout the middle ages period right up to 1844 extremely well.

There is no need to quote my post if you are not going to respond to anything in it.

You still didn't explain how you got 457 out of Daniel 8.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

You still didn't explain how you got 457 out of Daniel 8.

Firstly, remind yourself of Nebuchadnezzars dream in Daniel 2

Once you have done that consider the reason why God gave Daniel all of his visions...what was the point of them all?

Then go here and with a little personal study and you should have no problem understanding it.

The real advantage of these forums, one's thoughts and ideas are opened up for critique...a good way of determining the soundness of it. Who knows, if it really is a solid link between Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 (and i think Alexandar The Great is because the Roman Emporers effectively immortalized and mirrored their reigns on him), perhaps this theory may find its way into future Adventist studies and teachings on the topic (that would be a nice outcome wouldn't it).

 

[tall73]

Firstly, remind yourself of Nebuchadnezzars dream in Daniel 2

Once you have done that consider the reason why God gave Daniel all of his visions...what was the point of them all?

Then go here and with a little personal study and you should have no problem understanding it.

The real advantage of these forums, one's thoughts and ideas are opened up for critique...a good way of determining the soundness of it. Who knows, if it really is a solid link between Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 (and i think Alexandar The Great is because the Roman Emporers effectively immortalized and mirrored their reigns on him), perhaps this theory may find its way into future Adventist studies and teachings on the topic (that would be a nice outcome wouldn't it).

I don't think most Adventist studies are looking to put theories in when you won't even discuss the details or how they fit.

And again you quoted me without even attempting to respond to what I said.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

And again you quoted me without even attempting to respond to what I said.

I think you ignored what was written (and that is your right of course), however continuing to ask for proof is only now getting worse.

I have further to add to link between Daniel 7&8 being Alexandar the Great...the rise of the little horn in Daniel 8 starts without the joining of state and religion in Greece, i think this is what is the reason for the Daniel 8 illustration not yet having eyes and ears...

Alexander's settlement of Greek colonists and the resulting spread of Greek culture resulted in Hellenistic civilization, which developed through the Roman Empire into modern Western culture. The Greek language became the lingua franca of the region and was the predominant language of the Byzantine Empire up until its end in the mid-15th century AD. Greek-speaking communities in central and far eastern Anatolia survived until the Greek genocide and the population exchange in the 1920s. Alexander became legendary as a classical hero in the mould of Achilles, featuring prominently in the history and mythic traditions of both Greek and non-Greek cultures. His military achievements and enduring, unprecedented success in battle made him the measure against which many later military leaders would compare themselves.[c] Military academies throughout the world still teach his tactics.[8] Alexandar The Great - Wikipedia​

 

[tall73]

I think you ignored what was written

No, I read what was written. It was not responsive to my post which you quoted.

And I see no point in continuing when you won't interact with the views of others, won't clarify your own views when questions are asked, etc.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

No, I read what was written. It was not responsive to my post which you quoted.

Tall let me provide some insightful information that may be of use to you and other readers who dont understand the way the WWW works.

These forums topic posts are individually able to rank by themselves in google search engine results. The more often a particular post is presented, and displayed in a web browser, the higher its google search engine rankings!

how do i know this...i build websites on the side and have web hosting servers of my own and have done so for more than 10 years. The search engines index all written content on websites and forums. I can rebuild entire websites from these indexes without access to a single page on the original website or indeed its images (these get indexed as well)

People new to a topic will mostly read the question itself (the first post) and then rather quickly start skipping over pages to the most recent posts.

A simple way of ensuring that ones theory is presented to the world is to ensure that one has that theory either on page 1 of the topic, or on the last page. Of course, the advantage lies with the individual who wrote the original question, then the first respondant, and so on down the line it goes (with the exception of the last page)

Whilst some forums heavily restrict the ability of editing after period of time, quite often they (the early respondents - who the topic thread starter is highest in the order) can go back and edit the question to add further information to the answer and highlight it thus avoiding the need to maintain a paper trail at or near the most recent post submitted on the forum!

So now that you have the knowledge above, or are reminded of how it works...

There are two choices ...
1. you provide a genuine counter argument that fits historically and biblically and balance the search engine rankings, or
2. I simply keep reposting my argument over and over again (thus only increasing its google rankings exposure and adding to the reader base of my theory).

Its your choice, i am more than happy to further only my theory google search results or, perhaps we can increase the reader base for both views and our interaction concerning them and provide a balance where people can study and decide for themselves?

What is your counter argument? You have all the information you need to study my theory (there are two forum topics where i have posted it (actually there are three because it is also found here too)

Please do not use the analogy that words do not link bible texts so Daniel 7 & 8 are not linked. that is not a satisfactory or supported answer...it has already been disproven numerous times in the past. For example, Jesus in Matthew 24 links the 'abomination of desolation' to Daniel 9, in the same manner, I have Daniel 7&8 ...so clearly that is not an unusual way to study the scriptures searching for interpretation.

A really simple short summary of my theory linking Daniel 7&8 - The key is the little horn

1. the rise of the little horn has its origins with the Greek empire (because of the Roman glorification of Alexandar the Great),
2. and that the Little Horn received "its voice" via the political legitimization given centuries later by Rome.
3. The dark ages onwards demonstrate the rest of the prophecy.

 

[tall73]

Tall let me provide some insightful information that may be of use to you and other readers who dont understand the way the WWW works.

These forums topic posts are individually able to rank by themselves in google search engine results. The more often a particular post is presented, and displayed in a web browser, the higher its google search engine rankings!

how do i know this...i build websites on the side and have web hosting servers of my own and have done so for more than 10 years. The search engines index all written content on websites and forums. I can rebuild entire websites from these indexes without access to a single page on the original website or indeed its images (these get indexed as well)

People new to a topic will mostly read the question itself (the first post) and then rather quickly start skipping over pages to the most recent posts.

A simple way of ensuring that ones theory is presented to the world is to ensure that one has that theory either on page 1 of the topic, or on the last page. Of course, the advantage lies with the individual who wrote the original question, then the first respondant, and so on down the line it goes (with the exception of the last page)

Whilst some forums heavily restrict the ability of editing after period of time, quite often they (the early respondents - who the topic thread starter is highest in the order) can go back and edit the question to add further information to the answer and highlight it thus avoiding the need to maintain a paper trail at or near the most recent post submitted on the forum!

So now that you have the knowledge above, or are reminded of how it works...

There are two choices ...
1. you provide a genuine counter argument that fits historically and biblically and balance the search engine rankings, or
2. I simply keep reposting my argument over and over again (thus only increasing its google rankings exposure and adding to the reader base of my theory).

Yes, you better add a few more repetitions so the last post people see isn't you admitting to ignoring any interaction, and repeating yourself for Google rankings

Its your choice, i am more than happy to further only my theory google search results or, perhaps we can increase the reader base for both views and our interaction concerning them and provide a balance where people can study and decide for themselves?

No, you refused interaction throughout.

Nor did you ever explain how you got 457 or 1844.

As to how the web works, my sanctuary site already appears in search rankings, and results in correspondence with those interested.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Funny that it's explained in 3 different threads and in my post above. However it appears you are playing games here Tall. Your responses seem to discredit that you were ever an SDA BTW, you clearly don't know the SDA doctrine and ignore any explanations of our church doctrines...you pretend that the many descriptions given to you do not exist.
The apostle Paul describes people like this...he discusses farmers "burning unproductive fields" if I recall correctly.

 

[tall73]

Funny that it's explained in 3 different threads and in my post above.

No, it was not in fact explained how you got 1844 or 457. Of course, now that you talked about going back and editing later who knows what you might put in there.

However it appears you are playing games here Tall. Your responses seem to discredit that you were ever an SDA BTW, you clearly don't know the SDA doctrine and ignore any explanations our church doctrines...you pretend that the many descriptions given to you do not exist.

The one who just spelled out his method for playing the game by editing, Google results manipulating, etc. is the one playing games, which is you. I responded to all of your various posts point by point earlier in the thread. Then you complained I posted too much Scripture for you to read. Then you complained that when I responded point by point to the dissertation summary you posted that it was too long. Then you suggested removing Paul's writings before you realize that Paul probably didn't write Hebrews. Then you wanted to remove Hebrews anyway since some of it troubled you.

Then you settled on repeating the same thing for Google search results, and not answering questions at all.

The apostle Paul describes people like this...he discusses farmers "burning unproductive fields" if I recall correctly.

The same Paul you were considering removing when you thought he was the one that wrote Hebrews 9 which goes against Adventist doctrine?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Funny that it's explained in 3 different threads and in my post above. However it appears you are playing games here Tall. Your responses seem to discredit that you were ever an SDA BTW, you clearly don't know the SDA doctrine and ignore any explanations of our church doctrines...you pretend that the many descriptions given to you do not exist.
The apostle Paul describes people like this...he discusses farmers "burning unproductive fields" if I recall correctly.

could you post the threads, I would like to read them.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

could post the threads, I would like to read them.

should i respond with type or antitype?

 

[AdamjEdgar]

The same Paul you were considering removing when you thought he was the one that wrote Hebrews 9 which goes against Adventist doctrine?

Did i say Paul wrote Hebrews...or that i am of the opinion, because it has inconsistencies with his other writings and others writers in the Bible, that perhaps Paul did not write the book of Hebrews?

Would you not agree, that when one finds inconsistencies, then one needs to first consider the over riding theme of the Bible, then interpret ALL scripture from that perspective?

So if the over riding theme of the Bible is not consistent with ones interpretation of the book of Hebrews, then clearly ones interpretation is 100% wrong and one needs to rethink their theology!

I do not see any problem with making such a claim.

Once again, the link between Daniel 7 and 8 is Alexandar the Great and the rise of the Little Horn out of Greece and its future legitimisation by the Romans thus giving it power via the combining of church and state. Constantine is an instrument of the latter part of this equation in fulfillment of Revelation 13.

That is a consistent view that historically lines up with the prophetic timelines without modification of the text. I do not see why that should be a problem actually?

One commonly used argument I have seen against the 2300 days prophecy is to attempt to claim that there are 2 sacrifices per day and it is in fact half that number (evening and morning thus 2 sacrifices per day so halve the number of days to 1150). I hadnt really considered that before but I have been told this theory is actually easy to defeat from the bible passages themselves, I am sure you already know this...I wonder if you might wish to explain why 1150 days is an unworkable deduction using that argument? (I am happy to take a crack at it although i would really like to know your explanation)

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Did i say Paul wrote Hebrews...or that i am of the opinion, because it has inconsistencies with his other writings and others writers in the Bible, that perhaps Paul did not write the book of Hebrews?

Would you not agree, that when one finds inconsistencies, then one needs to first consider the over riding theme of the Bible, then interpret ALL scripture from that perspective?

So if the over riding theme of the Bible is not consistent with ones interpretation of the book of Hebrews, then clearly ones interpretation is 100% wrong and one needs to rethink their theology!

I do not see any problem with making such a claim.

Once again, the link between Daniel 7 and 8 is Alexandar the Great and the rise of the Little Horn out of Greece and its future legitimisation by the Romans thus giving it power via the combining of church and state. Constantine is an instrument of the latter part of this equation in fulfillment of Revelation 13.

That is a consistent view that historically lines up with the prophetic timelines without modification of the text. I do not see why that should be a problem actually?

One commonly used argument I have seen against the 2300 days prophecy is to attempt to claim that there are 2 sacrifices per day and it is in fact half that number (evening and morning thus 2 sacrifices per day so halve the number of days to 1150). I hadnt really considered that before but I have been told this theory is actually easy to defeat from the bible passages themselves, I am sure you already know this...I wonder if you might wish to explain why 1150 days is an unworkable deduction using that argument? (I am happy to take a crack at it although i would really like to know your explanation)

This problem is easily solved, and has already been address, But will restate it hear. when you consider that both Paul and Peter employed Scribes, then it is entirely possible that Hebrews was a joint document by both Paul and some other writer, most likely Apollos,