What are Catholics ?

[MissytheButterfly]

I have a question for CATHOLICS ONLY

I was told at this site that Catholics do not consider themselves a denomination, but they consider the different Protestant groups denominations. Which I respect and understand.

I was wondering what do Catholics prefer to be called ? For instance, I made a prayer request and some got offended because I asked from prayer from all denominations as well as Catholics. Of course this wasn't meant maliciously, I was trying to be careful not to call a group a name they didn't want to be called.

EX: I am multiracial: black, italian, and indian and some people in the past have called blacks that are mixed mullato, negro, colored, etc..but I prefer to be called African-american or multi-racial.

So I was wondering what is the proper title to use when refering to Catholics in a sentence since they don't consider themselves a denomination ??

Because I certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone's religious affiliation.

 

[amie]

Well I know that you will get several answers to this one. I have a catholic priest who is a best friend and considers Catholisism denomination. Then again, I have a cousin who is a Catholic priest and does not consider denomination. So that doesn't help. But, I know that from registering my daughter at the Catholic school which is run by the LA archdiocese, the paperwork states clearly..."which denomination are you..ie, catholic, protestant, baptist...?" I myself am Catholic and if someone was to say to me, "what is your denomination?" I would say Catholic...but I am a Christian...hope this helps some Missy, but with the teachings that Catholic is not denominational, I can see where the confusion lies. so, good question and I will find out for you, what the actual church says about this question since I am giving a talk to members of the clergy this afternoon in a spirituality series. I will ask them and let you know, now if I get all different responses I will flip a coin
Amie

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Oh Amie, that would be awesome if you could find out what the actual CHURCH says on this matter. I would love to know.

Cool! Thanks a lot Amie!

 

[Fr. Rob]

Well, here is the way I was taught in seminary:

There is the Catholic Church, and various Protestant ecclesiastical organizations.

The Catholic Church has several parts: The Roman Catholic Church, The (Greek/Russian/Armenian/Syrian/etc) Orthodox Church, The Anglican Church (those parts of the Anglican Church, that is, that have not abandoned the historic faith), also the Lutheran Churches of Sweden, Norway, and Denmark (who have retained Bishops, Priests/Presbyters, and Deacons in Apostolic Succession), The Old Catholics and Independent Catholics (to the extent that they too have not fell into heresy), the Groups such as SSPX and SSPV.

These Catholic bodies, freely associated together under a duly constitued episcopal (bishop-centered) form of leadership, are called "JURISDICTIONS". Since the only true source of authority in the Church is the authority of a Bishop in Apostolic Succession, that Bishop is obligated to hold jurisdiction over his flock.

Protestant groups which do not have these orders (Bp., Pr., Dcn.) are referred to as Denominations or Sects. Denominations have generally held to the core beliefs in the Trinity, the role of Baptism, practice Communion, believe in the Bible in one form or another, etc. They simply don't have ministers in valid apostolic succession.

Sects are groups like the Pentecostals and Apostolics who are "Jesus Only" (first example in my mind) who practice overtly heretical doctrines, such as Jesus only baptism. While most of these folks are very sincere and caring, they are on that borderline of being Non-Christian, since they deny the Trinity, a core doctrine of the Christian faith. Sects would also include the JW's and Mormons, though the term Protestant and Christian can only be applied to them insofar as they make the claims themselves to be Protestant or Christian. (for in the end, any faith that denies the Trinity and the Divinity/Humanity of Christ is not truly Christian).

Hope this helps.

Father Robert Lyons

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by AnglicanFather
Protestant groups which do not have these orders (Bp., Pr., Dcn.) are referred to as Denominations or Sects. Denominations have generally held to the core beliefs in the Trinity, the role of Baptism, practice Communion, believe in the Bible in one form or another, etc. They simply don't have ministers in valid apostolic succession.

Hope this helps.

Father Robert Lyons

Thank you Father Lyons for your information it is greatly appreciated. I would like to tell you that I am African Methodist Episcopal (started by Richard Allen in the 1800's) and we do have Bishops and Deacons. The late Bishop Ming was our Bishop but we will have a new one soon. Since Bishop Ming died and we have not chosen a Bishop yet we are under what we call The Right Reverend and the Presiding Elder.

So would you say that we are a denomination ? Or how would you label us ? And your last statement about denominational ministers not being in valid apostolic succession, is insulting. It's almost like saying that the WHOLE church is invalid. Which is far from the truth. And the people who will be saved in the end will be from many religious groups. Because if they aren't how do explain the Jews being the chosen people ? And they certainly aren't Anglican, Catholic, or any other jurisdiction.

Thoughtfully,
Missy

 

[Wolseley]

I think probably what set the Catholics off in your prayer request was that it might have appeared that you were separating them from Christians. (BIG no-no.)

Most Catholics won't get too bent out of shape if you refer to them as a "denomination", even if they don't consider the Catholic Church to be a denomination.

But if you separate the Catholics from all other Christian denominations, for example, if you were to say, "Christians and Catholics", most Catholics will get a tad prickly at that, and will quickly remind you that Catholics are Christians.

You could say "Catholics and Protestants", which wouldn't bother the Catholics one bit---but there are some non-Catholics out there who get upset if you refer to them as "Protestants", so you're still in hot water.

Complicated, isn't it?

My suggestion would be to use terminology such as "all Christians, of all persuasion", or maybe "all Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and other". If that's too much of a handful to write out, then use "Christians", or get creative and use something like "followers of Jesus", or "believers in Christ"; or maybe even "brothers and sisters".

Note: using them term "born again" in any combination ("born again Christian", "born again believer") will also get you in trouble with Catholics. We believe that one is born again at baptism, but there are some who like to brandish the term like a club to beat Catholics over the head with, if the Catholics haven't had a life-changing experience of being "born again"----and with some folks, if you've been "born again", you certainly wouldn't remain in the Catholic Church, so obviously if you're a Catholic, you ain't been "born again". That's a long drawn-out explanation, but I only mention it because the use of the term will give rise to misunderstandings and umbrage on the part of some.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL, Thank Wos, I don't see it as "being in trouble" since I am grown..but I got your point. Thanks for your opinion.

Bless you,
Missy

 

[Fr. Rob]

Originally posted by MissytheButterfly


So would you say that we are a denomination ? Or how would you label us ? And your last statement about denominational ministers not being in valid apostolic succession, is insulting.

Thoughtfully,
Missy

Dear Missy,

In reference to your first question, yes. The AME Church traces it's roots as follows:

Ancient, Undivided, Catholic Church
to
Roman Catholic Church
to
The Anglican Church
to
The Methodist Movement (in the US, Superintendents Coke and Asbury were "ordained" by John Wesley because the Church of England (Anglican) would not ordain bishops in the Colonies. Since Presbyters/Priests cannot validly and licitly ordain others, the power to send forth was broken, resulting in a nullity of orders.

The commentary on the final section reflects on your second statement, about being an insult to claim that AME and other Denoms. are not in Apostolic Succession. It was either Ignatius or Polycarp (I'm at work at the Hospital, so I don't have my Patristic Handbook handy) who said, "Without the Bishop it is unlawful to celebrate the Sacraments or to do anything. . . where the Bishop is, there is the Church." By extension, the Bishop's authority is represented by his vicars, the Presbyterate. No Bishop, no Presbyterate. . . no Ministry. Since Christ won't allow that to happen (see Matt. 16) then there must be bishops with authority that traces back to the Apostles, and where those Bishops are, there is the Church.

Father Rob
Anglican Catholic

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by AnglicanFather


Dear Missy,

In reference to your first question, yes. The AME Church traces it's roots as follows:

Ancient, Undivided, Catholic Church
to
Roman Catholic Church
to
The Anglican Church
to
The Methodist Movement (in the US, Superintendents Coke and Asbury were "ordained" by John Wesley because the Church of England (Anglican) would not ordain bishops in the Colonies. Since Presbyters/Priests cannot validly and licitly ordain others, the power to send forth was broken, resulting in a nullity of orders.

The commentary on the final section reflects on your second statement, about being an insult to claim that AME and other Denoms. are not in Apostolic Succession. It was either Ignatius or Polycarp (I'm at work at the Hospital, so I don't have my Patristic Handbook handy) who said, "Without the Bishop it is unlawful to celebrate the Sacraments or to do anything. . . where the Bishop is, there is the Church." By extension, the Bishop's authority is represented by his vicars, the Presbyterate. No Bishop, no Presbyterate. . . no Ministry. Since Christ won't allow that to happen (see Matt. 16) then there must be bishops with authority that traces back to the Apostles, and where those Bishops are, there is the Church.

Father Rob
Anglican Catholic

First of all, I KNOW the roots of my church very well and like I SAID Richard Allen started the A.M.E. You don't have the authority to say who is ordained by apostolic succession. And as far as tracing roots back to the apostles..no one REALLY knows if they have roots with the apostles or not. Some religious sects claim to have it, but they don't know it for sure. Like I said I was insulted, and feel like you are trying to say other denominations are not valid just because you believe that your church (which it may or may not be) is decended from the apostles.

 

[VOW]

To Missy:

The Catholic Church has documentation tracing the office of Pope to the Apostles. There is an unbroken line from Peter to John Paul II. The Apostolic Succession is something that is very crucial, very precious to our faith.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by MissytheButterfly
Like I said I was insulted, and feel like you are trying to say other denominations are not valid just because you believe that your church (which it may or may not be) is decended from the apostles.

I don't think he was meaning to be insulting at all. Historical facts cannot be ignored or dismissed as uncertain.

And its not that other denominations are invalid because they are product of the Reformation - but you cannot ignore the historical facts of how the different groups started.

I really don't think he was being insulting though.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by VOW
To Missy:

The Catholic Church has documentation tracing the office of Pope to the Apostles. There is an unbroken line from Peter to John Paul II. The Apostolic Succession is something that is very crucial, very precious to our faith.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Vow, that's wonderful and I respect the Catholic OPINION. But to me and other denominations..that's all it is..an opinion.

Always in christian love,
Missy

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by KC Catholic


I don't think he was meaning to be insulting at all. Historical facts cannot be ignored or dismissed as uncertain.

And its not that other denominations are invalid because they are product of the Reformation - but you cannot ignore the historical facts of how the different groups started.

I really don't think he was being insulting though.

Sometimes people may or may not mean something but because of wording it can be construde as such. Just like when I posted my prayer request and Catholics thought I was bashing them when all I was doing was trying to show respect. I personally feel that if you want respect, you give it. I acknowledge the validity of Catholicsim, but no I don't beleive in some of the Catholic teachings and claimed authority. And never will, but I FULLY expect every religious group to give the SAME respect they look for.
And truth be told if I had said the same exact thing about Catholicsim, Catholics from every corner would be fit to be tied and you know it as well as I do.

Thank you for you opinion,
Missy

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by MissytheButterfly
Vow, that's wonderful and I respect the Catholic OPINION. But to me and other denominations..that's all it is..an opinion.

To Missy:

And because you consider that to be...an OPINION, there is the incredibly sad rift in Christianity.

I posted a chart in Interfaith Discussion several weeks ago, that documented the beginning of each different Christian faith. Oh, how I got BLASTED! Because for each one, except Catholicism, there was a specific date of creating that church, with the name of one or more persons who founded it. EXCEPT the Catholic church, which Catholics believe, and Catholics have the documentation to support, was founded by Jesus on Peter.

And that breaks my heart.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by VOW


To Missy:

And because you consider that to be...an OPINION, there is the incredibly sad rift in Christianity.

I posted a chart in Interfaith Discussion several weeks ago, that documented the beginning of each different Christian faith. Oh, how I got BLASTED! Because for each one, except Catholicism, there was a specific date of creating that church, with the name of one or more persons who founded it. EXCEPT the Catholic church, which Catholics believe, and Catholics have the documentation to support, was founded by Jesus on Peter.

And that breaks my heart.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

I am sorry it has broken your heart but just because I personally consider Catholic authority to be an opinion doesn't mean I have a rift with them and it doesn't mean that just because people are not members of the Catholic church that they have some kind of rift with Catholics.

I went to Catholic school practically my entire life. And if any one knows how devoted, honest, and God-loving true Catholics are, it is me. I saw it first hand in school every day. No one knocked me because of my beliefs and they acted like I was just as good as they are. Just because I do not agree with all Catholic doctrine and claimed authority does not mean I have an "issue" with them or think they are not valid christians. Of course they are, anyone doing God's will (which many Catholics and Protestants are doing by the way) makes them valid. My point is being one Christian faith or another doesn't make one group better or less than another. There is room for all of us in God's family.

Sincerely,
Missy

 

[amie]

But over all, what you have just taught is far off base.
[/B]

I hardly call Fr. Rob's post "far off base"...but you can call it whatever you want.

 

[amie]

Solo,
I love you and I will not debate you on religious issues...now just say that I am right and I'll be happy!
No, I am kidding of course...bye VOW, K.C, Wols, Missy, Fr. Rob...I am out too...

 

[MissytheButterfly]

This is getting totally out of hand...All I wanted to know is how should I address Catholics. I just wanted to know the most respectful way to them what they would like to be referred to as, since they do not consider themselves a denomination...and this has turned into WHO SHOT JOHN as the old folks used to say.

What difference does it make, we believe different things. Okay..so what. We know that! All I want to know is how to show respect to a group of people that I don't belong to namely Catholics..So can we PLEASE PLEASE stick to that, and that only.

Missy

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Originally posted by amie
Well I know that you will get several answers to this one. I have a catholic priest who is a best friend and considers Catholisism denomination. Then again, I have a cousin who is a Catholic priest and does not consider denomination. So that doesn't help. But, I know that from registering my daughter at the Catholic school which is run by the LA archdiocese, the paperwork states clearly..."which denomination are you..ie, catholic, protestant, baptist...?" I myself am Catholic and if someone was to say to me, "what is your denomination?" I would say Catholic...but I am a Christian...hope this helps some Missy, but with the teachings that Catholic is not denominational, I can see where the confusion lies. so, good question and I will find out for you, what the actual church says about this question since I am giving a talk to members of the clergy this afternoon in a spirituality series. I will ask them and let you know, now if I get all different responses I will flip a coin
Amie

Hey Amie, were you able to find out from the Clergy any information about it ?

 

[amie]

OK...I am back...Missy,
I asked and yes Fr. Rob is right about that whole jurisdiction thing...hmmmm...but it does sound kind of strange to say "all denominations and jurisdictions" this does get confusing. before, I just always said people from all denominations...from now on I guess I'll say "people from all religious backgrounds" but then yikes! what about the agnostics...Good luck with this one Missy!
Amie