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having spent the last 20 years in the SDA higher educational System I can tell you that it is failing for more reasons other then doctrine. since the 70's the sda system has, starting on the west coast and the North East been given over to humanism. kids in ther 20 in the late 60 through the Mid 70's have been running the show since the 80's they have been trying to change things, of of the things have been for the good and some for the bad. Liberal scholarship has created an enviorment where question tratidional understanding of things are ok. this includes adventist theology as well as any other agreement they have with Christianity. The SDA leadership is guilty of "Doing what ever they want" to quote 1 SDA college VP "We can do what ever we want, We are not accountable to anybody, but our constitutiants" They hire anybody to work in there colleges. it does not matter if they are disciples. if they are great, if they aren't great.Our church structure is falling. It's been infiltrated and is largely corrupt.
other factor include the break down of the family and the change in communication and media with the invention of new technologies. Going to movies were forbidden by traditional SDA, but when the VCR was invented and movies were brought into the home the attitudes were more relaxed in the selection of movies and the mind set of SDA were changed. the loss of the sda subculture. traditional sda strong holds like loma linda and la serria were encroached upon by the out side world. The expanding city growth and the SDA Getto. came into contact. this blurred the line between SDA and World. For many SDA this was a loss of identity.
Change in Theological Attitudes. Since the early 1990's a change has taken place in most of the SDA academys and Colleges. the Dumbing down of Adventism. Most of the unnique doctrines are not taught in SDA schools anymore and if they are taught it is with weak version. We tried to Get them to teach us about the sancturary message and the theology department would not do it. We could not figure out why? I know why now. the empashis has been on christ and Grace, not on adventism. it has been on identifying with Christianity not the difference.
That actually sounds like a positive move to me.We tried to Get them to teach us about the sancturary message and the theology department would not do it. We could not figure out why? I know why now. the empashis has been on christ and Grace, not on adventism. it has been on identifying with Christianity not the difference.
what do you mean by cheap grace? Are you implying that it must be purchased? That would not be grace. On another side of the coin what is your position about violating the law? Does it not mean what it says? One simply gets around it by offereing a sacrifice according to the law.Far from the truth. We (SDAs) believe in righteousness by faith through grace. We just don't believe in your so called cheap grace: licensed sinning under grace or however you choose to call it.
Where is your denomination growing? In the USA? Show the true figures, which are inflated by those who no loinger attend. I have heard that there may be hundreds on the books and actual attendance less than a 100. Your church is growing only in less educated countries.I think our denomination is far from cursed being grown to 15 millions from a few dozens in the mid 1800s.
Really? I haven't seen one that hasn't addressed. Feel free to have some intelligent discussion by quoting arguments with scriptural support.
I wonder if any SDA understands the plan of salvation. It seems to my you just asmitted that none do by saying the EGW said they don't.The covenant of Sinai was never said to be faulty. The faulty part according to Hebrew 8 & 10 was the promise of man to obey the law. Heb 8 & 10 go on to tell us the new covenant is better because He will write the laws in our hearts and our minds.
Nothing wrong with the law. They are the just contractual terms. It's the means to achieve obedience. The old: by man's own power. The new: by grace.
Of course you can find it out if you really read Ellen White's writings rather than quote from anti-adventist sites' mis-quoting.
Right. You got me there. Ellen White said it herself not 1 in 100 (SDAs) understands the plan of salvation. So the real number is much less.
Feel free to elaborate on Heb 9, 10 and Eph 4 on how they contradict IJ.
The way I see that is everyone is at a different level of understanding on the "plan of salvation." Actually; I have sometimes thought that this use of the phrase "plan of salvation" refers to the person's checklist who used this term; either verbally, or written in a post or letter. The reason I say that is that "the plan of salvation" has already been accomplished, and God works with everyone where they are at so it might appear to us that someone is not saved; yet they actually are very close to His heart, and He is happy with their progress, and the general tenor of their heart. Looking at others who are not on the "plan" that we think they should be on; we tend to say they are not Christians, when it infact that may be the farthest thing from the truth.I wonder if any SDA understands the plan of salvation. It seems to my you just asmitted that none do by saying the EGW said they don't.
Your point is easy to establish when you sever the sentence as you have done. How is it that you do not understand or equate Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (Jer 31:32, middle part of the sentence) to be something other than the ten commandments?The Old Covenant failed because of performance.
Hebrews 8
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
I think you will have a hard time to show torah in Jer 31:33 is NOT the torah codified at Mt. Sinai. Where is the scriptural support for the change of the commandments of God?
Please explain to me how that a demanded observance of the Sabbath is not performance based.Free from the law for performance/work based salvation. But not free from the law. Would you then worship idol, kill, lie or steal? Are you free from the law of Gravity? Try stepping off of the empire state building, you would not discover but confirm the law of which God governs His universe with.
Jer 31:31-34 says it would be changed and Jesus said it was changed in MK 14:24 - And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.Paul's writing supports what my statement. If there is something wrong with the letter, then how can the spirit of it be glorious?
The old covenant was a provision covenant with law written on stones that relied on the man's performance. The new covenant is the eternal covenant with law written on the hearts and minds that relies on God's promise. The law is the contractual term. Where in the bible does it say the law of God has been changed? The covenant is a contract between two parties and is conditional.
A spatting contest, huh? Steps to Christ is 100% the work of a ghost writer one of EGW's associates, a secretary named Betty it seems to me. Sorry I forgot the last name, and not sure if I got the first name right. Some better versed in SDA history better than me may come to the rescue.Ellen White wrote volumes of books. Have you actually read 'Steps to Christ' or 'Desire of Ages' in their entirety? Read and have an idea what Adventists actually believe before you quote a sentence here a paragraph there to misinterpret our beliefs.
What can we not defend the truth? It seems to me that you are demanding to be unchecked and have free reign with no opposition. If you never got out of your own forum and it was closed to be read from outsiders, I would never bother you. I object to your assualt on what I believe. They have a no flame rule here. How can you expect me to not be inflamed.You cetianly seem to be and this is not an SDA forum.What do these verses say?
Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Enough? Do they (the verses on judgment) apply to the New Testament believers?
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
When does God remember or forget being that He knows all things?
'sins remember no more' is a figurative speech. It means no measure of judgment to be carried out against it.
I've been trying to explain to you on this.
The old covenant is a provisional covenant never intended to save but to demonstrate to sinful man their inability to save themselves and their need for the Lamb of God.
When do you think the New Covenant was in effect? Doesn't the bible say Abraham was saved because of his faith?
1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Why would God reveal His secrete unto those who knowingly violate His law and claim His law is no longer binding while the 10 commandments are still stored in the Ark of Covenant in the tabernacle in heaven?
Love without duty are empty vain words. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. How is that you make the law out to be such a burden and painful? If you are married what does it say about your marriage if begrudgingly do what your spouse asks?
Don't you have something better to do than always trying to tear us down both here in GT and in our own forum?
Now that is really a good one there.Your posts do not glorify Christ nor edify the body of Christ by tearing down and misinterpreting the law of God which is a transcript of Christ's character.
I did not respond to everything in your post on purpose and not because I can't.Try to read the whole chapter, the context.
Isaiah 1
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Here in vs10 the prophet Isaiah pleads with Israel to give ear unto the law of our God, not the other way around. Notice the weekly sabbath is contained in the 10 commandments and the offerings are contained in the ceremonial laws. In vs11, The Lord detested the sacrifices because the purpose. To what purpose do sinful, unbelieving man sacrifice unto God.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him:...
Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
There is nothing wrong with the sacrifices, nor of the new moons, the feast days, the sabbath to offer them on. There is nothing wrong with the prayers offered to the Lord. It's the wicked who offered them, who use the name of the Lord in vain, who called themselves Israelites, who are calling themselves Christians yet who live in sin and iniquity, defying the law of God which is the foundation of the His government, thus defiling the name of the Lord.
Your "MOOD" says "Joyful;" but thats a little hard to see from your post my friend. I guess this all depends upon exactly what you are getting at when you say "productive and helpful." Likely, you are one of the many who say it has to agree with you, before it can be "productive and helpful." There are many people who have totally false views about Adventists, and to try and clarify those views is not wrong. I feel very blessed to be an Adventist, and to fellowship with all kinds of other Christians.Imagine that, this thread has becoming another bickering and back and forth arguing thread. It is so rare these days when a thread on this site is actually productive and helpful. This thread definitely hasn't helped me much other than to see that adventists are defending their views to others just as most religions have to do to those with other beliefs.
If that is all you want to know I would suggest the SDA boards. If you say anything on CF is it open game. There are more than one who detest heresy here and will oppose it anywhere it raises its ugly head. If you are seeking the truth about the Bible this is a good thing. If you are seeking to know about religion and desire only information read only. If you seek to understand ask questions and be prepared for both sides of the fence unless you are asking a single source privately.I wasn't sure where to post this really, so hopefully here is okay, but I am curious what a 7th day adventist is and what they believe? I posted something recently that someone said was an "adventist" type of opinion, and I did not know what that meant at all. I would love to hear an answer from someone who is one personally, but either way I am curious to know, thanks everyone!
I note that this was a thread that you initiated as an inquiry of what 7th-day Adventism is, and naturally there are responses from those who are current members, former members who chose to leave Adventism because of doctrinal differences, and those like me who have never been Adventists, but became knowledgeable of the beliefs of this group for personal reasons that vary with each person. Illustrations have been presented from some of the source documents written by Ellen White, who remains the authority of Adventist doctrines according to SDA Fundamental Belief #18. There have also been a number of posts presented by the current members of the SDA church who would like you to accept it as a mainstream denomination of Christianity. These are from some of the posts written by current Adventists:Imagine that, this thread has becoming another bickering and back and forth arguing thread. It is so rare these days when a thread on this site is actually productive and helpful. This thread definitely hasn't helped me much other than to see that adventists are defending their views to others just as most religions have to do to those with other beliefs.
They are christians that believe in the bible and that God law still stands including the sabbath.
We follow the Ten Commandments and those laws which weren't fulfilled by Christ's coming.
The record shows that faith is the means of righteousness but that law is required to be kept.
They (non-SDA) don't bother with the 4th commandment which is just as valid as the other 9 and in an attempt to disregard the 4th they attack all 10 but in actuality still keep the other 9.
...
And that is what it all boils down to. The Sabbath. But look at this. The Sabbath was made before sin. It was made as the seventh day before sin was in the world. It will exist after sin has been finally dealt with.
The devil roams around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour through deception from the IJ and down even to and especially the Sabbath, which is the sign and memorial of God's creation of this earth and man, the animals and everything else that was at that time very good.
The covenant of Sinai was never said to be faulty.
Why would God reveal His secrete unto those who knowingly violate His law and claim His law is no longer binding while the 10 commandments are still stored in the Ark of Covenant in the tabernacle in heaven?
What you call "bickering" comes from the defense of these statements, all of which are contrary to Scripture, misrepresent Christianity, or represent fictional beliefs that have nothing Biblical for support.This (Investigative) judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.
Your "MOOD" says "Joyful;" but thats a little hard to see from your post my friend. I guess this all depends upon exactly what you are getting at when you say "productive and helpful." Likely, you are one of the many who say it has to agree with you, before it can be "productive and helpful." There are many people who have totally false views about Adventists, and to try and clarify those views is not wrong. I feel very blessed to be an Adventist, and to fellowship with all kinds of other Christians.
I came to Seventh Day Adventism without Ellen White and will remain one with or without her. The doctrine of the SDA are not dependent on her but on God's word.
I would agree with this about the unclean food laws, and worth noting that even when they were in effect, it was only applicable to Jews.
If that is all you want to know I would suggest the SDA boards. If you say anything on CF is it open game. There are more than one who detest heresy here and will oppose it anywhere it raises its ugly head. If you are seeking the truth about the Bible this is a good thing. If you are seeking to know about religion and desire only information read only. If you seek to understand ask questions and be prepared for both sides of the fence unless you are asking a single source privately.
bugkiller
You would be surprised to find that most Christians are looking forward to the Lord's coming, and have our expectations tempered by what Jesus told us concerning His coming again.I have a very simple question, why do Seventh-day Adventists always try to obscure their identity as Seventh-day Adventists?
Now, I am a Seventh-day Adventists. I believe in keeping the Biblical Sabbath. I believe in keeping the 10 Commandments. And, I am looking forward to the soon coming of our Lord.
You're invited to join us on the Progressive/Moderate Adventist forum in the Faith Groups area, where an ongoing discussion of the Investigative Judgment is in progress.I can follow all the historical dating the comes down to 1844. Well, sometime about 1843 or 1844. And, something must have happened in 1844, I don't know what. But, I don't find the "investigative judgement" anywhere in Scripture. I cannot find support for the teaching that the lake of fire will be when God rains fire down from heaven as Satan and his hoards are attacking the New Jerusalem, especially since the New Jerusalem does not descend until after the final judgment and since the Beast and the Antichrist are cast into the lake of fire BEFORE the 1000 years.
As you mention, this teaching about the origin of the sabbath is gleaned from a source of tradition, and not sola Scriptura. The law itself attests to the origin of the weekly sabbath with Moses:But, to those who would condemn the SDAs as teaching apart from salvation by grace, that is not true! I will attempt to summarize what I understand. We are saved by grace, not works. We love God because He has redeemed us from the penalty for sin. We OBEY His Commandments BECAUSE we love Him, not to be saved. Yes, I think that SDA tend to put way too much emphasis on keeping the Sabbath, but they got that teaching from Seventh-day Baptists and have taken it to the extreme. But, the Sabbath was established at Creation, BEFORE THE FALL, and we will be keeping Sabbath in eternity, so why not practice now?
Who accused you of heresy?Well, it would not be the first time I got accused of heresy on here, lol, so yeah I know what you mean.
Hey; I really like your main goal here, and the way you stated it. "knowing scripture better," is also one of my main goals too. It is so hard some days to even get a little time and energy to study the Word; and yes, it can be hard to "be joyful" all the time. One of my favorite scriptures is found in Micah 7:8 where we are told that even while we sit in darkness, the Lord will be our Light. And then it says further in Psalms 119:105 that God's Word is a Light unto our path. Isn't it comforting to know and to experience such light in a sometimes, very dark world?I fully admit I struggle to stay joyful at times. I actually just put that there as a reminder of what Paul said about trying to "be joyful always." I didn't have any set views on anything in regards to SDA beliefs and practices when I began this thread, so obviously conforming to my views would not be possible, I was just trying to get an understanding and I have been able to do that more through PMs with members of this site than noting the back and forth differences in opinions on Scriptures on this thread. I think I now understand a good amount of what Adventists believe, and for what it is worth, I think in the majority of their views and practices I cannot find any fault. I applaud them for being much more into learning actual scriptures than most denominations I have knowledge of, because I am not a part of any myself, and that is what my mail goal is, knowing scripture better.
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