What actually happens when we ask Jesus to be in our lives?

[Doug Brents]

Not to sound too harsh, but that really isn't the gospel.

We are justified (declared righteous, acquitted, pardoned, have peace with God) "by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3: 24.

Very true, but how is that redemption received? During baptism, (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16), and requires that we have first heard the Word (Rom 10:17) in which we have faith (belief put into action (James 2:26)), then repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), and confess Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:9-10).

Eph 2:8-9 tells us that grace is received through faith. Faith is belief in action. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[Tygra_1983]

Very true, but how is that redemption received? During baptism, (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16), and requires that we have first heard the Word (Rom 10:17) in which we have faith (belief put into action (James 2:26)), then repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), and confess Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:9-10).

Eph 2:8-9 tells us that grace is received through faith. Faith is belief in action. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

The next verse tells us how we receive redemption - "through faith in His blood" Romans 3: 25. What's more - Romans 5: 9 "much more being justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

How is Ephesians 2: 8-9 saying faith is belief in action? It says this grace by which we are saved is not of our own doing and that it is a gift. Any action would mean works, and works would mean you could boast, which would contradict the passage. Sure, we have to believe on Christ, and that takes exertion of the will. In fact, we have to repent from not believing on Christ to believing on Him, John 16:9. However, this is the sole condition to be justified, as you cannot mix grace and works Romans 11: 6.

Blessings to you, Doug

 

[Doug Brents]

The next verse tells us how we receive redemption - "through faith in His blood" Romans 3: 25. What's more - Romans 5: 9 "much more being justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

How is Ephesians 2: 8-9 saying faith is belief in action? It says this grace by which we are saved is not of our own doing and that it is a gift. Any action would mean works, and works would mean you could boast, which would contradict the passage.

No! Taking Eph 2:8-9 to mean that no action was required to receive salvation would contradict several passages (some of which are cited below).

The meaning of Eph 2 is that we did not, and cannot, by our actions cause God to make a way of salvation for us. Rom 5:8 is another way of saying the same thing. God made a way for us while we were still at enmity with Him, not for anything we had done or could do. But that does not mean that we don’t have to do anything to receive that salvation. For example: if I wrap up a Billion dollars and put it on your counter. Does it “earn” the gift if you have to unwrap it before you can gain the benefit of it? No. It is still a gift, and taking the action of unwrapping it has no bearing on that fact.

Sure, we have to believe on Christ, and that takes exertion of the will. In fact, we have to repent from not believing on Christ to believing on Him, John 16:9. However, this is the sole condition to be justified, as you cannot mix grace and works Romans 11: 6.

Blessings to you, Doug

In the several passages I cited, I showed the connections between all the passages that tell us the things that lead to salvation in Christ.
Eph 2 tells us that grace (the gift) comes through faith. Rom 10 tells us that faith comes through hearing (and believing) the word of God (the Gospel of Jesus). James 2 tells us that faith without action is dead. Acts 2 and 3, and Rom 10 tell us the only actions that Scripture says “lead to” as opposed to “flow from” salvation. Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both tell us that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins, unite us with Christ in His death and resurrection, and make us part of the body of Christ.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The next verse tells us how we receive redemption - "through faith in His blood" Romans 3: 25. What's more - Romans 5: 9 "much more being justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

How is Ephesians 2: 8-9 saying faith is belief in action? It says this grace by which we are saved is not of our own doing and that it is a gift. Any action would mean works, and works would mean you could boast, which would contradict the passage. Sure, we have to believe on Christ, and that takes exertion of the will. In fact, we have to repent from not believing on Christ to believing on Him, John 16:9. However, this is the sole condition to be justified, as you cannot mix grace and works Romans 11: 6.

Blessings to you, Doug

Do you think saving-faith is not also a gift?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No! Taking Eph 2:8-9 to mean that no action was required to receive salvation would contradict several passages (some of which are cited below).

The meaning of Eph 2 is that we did not, and cannot, by our actions cause God to make a way of salvation for us. Rom 5:8 is another way of saying the same thing. God made a way for us while we were still at enmity with Him, not for anything we had done or could do. But that does not mean that we don’t have to do anything to receive that salvation. For example: if I wrap up a Billion dollars and put it on your counter. Does it “earn” the gift if you have to unwrap it before you can gain the benefit of it? No. It is still a gift, and taking the action of unwrapping it has no bearing on that fact.

In the several passages I cited, I showed the connections between all the passages that tell us the things that lead to salvation in Christ.
Eph 2 tells us that grace (the gift) comes through faith. Rom 10 tells us that faith comes through hearing (and believing) the word of God (the Gospel of Jesus). James 2 tells us that faith without action is dead. Acts 2 and 3, and Rom 10 tell us the only actions that Scripture says “lead to” as opposed to “flow from” salvation. Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both tell us that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins, unite us with Christ in His death and resurrection, and make us part of the body of Christ.

Can you explain how the DEAD can do an alive thing?

 

[Tygra_1983]

No! Taking Eph 2:8-9 to mean that no action was required to receive salvation would contradict several passages (some of which are cited below).

The verses clearly state salvation is not of ourselves. The only action required is to believe the gospel, Ephesians 1: 12-14. Anything else is works

The meaning of Eph 2 is that we did not, and cannot, by our actions cause God to make a way of salvation for us. Rom 5:8 is another way of saying the same thing. God made a way for us while we were still at enmity with Him, not for anything we had done or could do.

Romans 5: 9 says we are justified by faith in His blood. That's Jesus's blood, Jesus's work. He was delivered over for our offenses and raised to secure our justification Romans 4: 25. Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness; righteousness shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead Romans 4: 21-24

But that does not mean that we don’t have to do anything to receive that salvation.

Romans 4: 4-5 - if we do anything other than exercise faith in Christ and we are merited on that, then God owes us salvation

For example: if I wrap up a Billion dollars and put it on your counter. Does it “earn” the gift if you have to unwrap it before you can gain the benefit of it? No. It is still a gift, and taking the action of unwrapping it has no bearing on that fact.

Yes, the equivalent of unwrapping the present is to exercise faith.

Rom 10 tells us that faith comes through hearing (and believing) the word of God (the Gospel of Jesus).

Yes, I believe that.

James 2 tells us that faith without action is dead.

Do you not find it interesting though that Romans 11:6 states that you cannot mix grace and works together? That It has to be one or the other.

Acts 2 and 3, and Rom 10 tell us the only actions that Scripture says “lead to” as opposed to “flow from” salvation. Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both tell us that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins, unite us with Christ in His death and resurrection, and make us part of the body of Christ.

What about the thief on the cross? He wasn't baptized. He is with the Lord in Heaven now.

 

[Lost Witness]

I've been doing a lot of study on this lately, but I thought I'd ask this question here...
Is there anything that happens TO us?
What happens IN us?

My experience was,
I turned my Life over to the LORD Jesus Christ and My Heart "shattered"
That night I knew "it's done" ( hallelujah)
The next morning I awoke with the LORDS Holy Spirit Filling me from head to toe,
Felt Him So vividly that He felt as though he swirled within me "shimmering" like the Top of a Calm Body Of water.
I Burnt For 3 days.(hallelujah)
The Rest of which I read about in the Bible

 

[Doug Brents]

Can you explain how the DEAD can do an alive thing?

I assume you are talking about the spiritually dead as opposed the physically dead.

In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told that the day they ate of the Tree, they would die: and then the died 900+ years later. That would make God a liar; unless the death was not physical, but spiritual. The spiritually dead but physically alive can still believe, repent, respond to God, and obey His commands. But once physically dead, the spirituality dead are permanently spiritually dead (meaning cut off from God, the Life Giver).

 

[Mark Quayle]

I assume you are talking about the spiritually dead as opposed the physically dead.

In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told that the day they ate of the Tree, they would die: and then the died 900+ years later. That would make God a liar; unless the death was not physical, but spiritual. The spiritually dead but physically alive can still believe, repent, respond to God, and obey His commands. But once physically dead, the spirituality dead are permanently spiritually dead (meaning cut off from God, the Life Giver).

You say, "The spiritually dead but physically alive can still believe, repent, respond to God, and obey His commands."

According to Romans 8, they cannot.
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Doug Brents]

The verses clearly state salvation is not of ourselves. The only action required is to believe the gospel, Ephesians 1: 12-14. Anything else is works

Let’s start with the fact that we cannot take a single verse and build a doctrine on it. We must look at every passage that has something to say about a subject; in this case salvation. If one verse says “believe” and nothing else John 3:16), is that the end of the story? No, because there are other passages (Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, etc.) that say something other than belief leads to salvation. Now which is is? Are these other passages not Scripture? Or are they in error, making God a liar? Or must they be included in our doctrine on salvation as required actions and change our understanding of Eph 2:8-9 accordingly?

Romans 5: 9 says we are justified by faith in His blood. That's Jesus's blood, Jesus's work. He was delivered over for our offenses and raised to secure our justification Romans 4: 25. Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness; righteousness shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead Romans 4: 21-24

We are justified by FAITH, not just idle belief. Abraham did not just believe, he acted on that belief, and that is what James calls faith (James 2:22-26); belief in action. And without that action faith is dead, like a body without a soul.

Romans 4: 4-5 - if we do anything other than exercise faith in Christ and we are merited on that, then God owes us salvation

Yes, if we art trying to earn our way to Heaven through “good works” or “works of the Law”, then if we were able to perform them perfectly, every second of every day for our entire life without fail, God would owe us salvation. That man has not lived (other than our Messiah, Jesus).

Yes, the equivalent of unwrapping the present is to exercise faith.

Exactly, and that is what repentance, confession of His name, and baptism are: the exercise of faith in obedience to His will.

Yes, I believe that.

Do you not find it interesting though that Romans 11:6 states that you cannot mix grace and works together? That It has to be one or the other.

Not really. Again, he is not saying no action whatsoever. He is saying we can’t be good enough, be righteous enough, walk enough old ladies across the street, care for enough orphans, etc.

Repentance says, I was wrong and need forgiveness.
Confession of His name says, I am not my own master, God please be my master.
Baptism says, I surrender my life to Your will. Let me die like my Master and be united with His resurrection.
These are not “good works” to “earn” salvation. They are acts of surrender to God’s will.

What about the thief on the cross? He wasn't baptized. He is with the Lord in Heaven now.

He also did not live under the New Covenant. Jesus, as the testator, had the right and ability to change His will up until the moment of His death (Heb 9:16-23), and the power to forgive sin on Earth (Matt 9:6). Before His death He forgave the thief, and promised him paradise, so that is what happened, and has no bearing on us today.

 

[Doug Brents]

You say, "The spiritually dead but physically alive can still believe, repent, respond to God, and obey His commands."

According to Romans 8, they cannot.
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Did you hear the Gospel (the fact that you were lost in sin and needed a savior, and Jesus was the only one who had lived a perfect life and so could be that savior), believe it, and obey it? I am going to guess so since you are posting here and this forum is only for Christians.

Then you were physically alive but spiritually dead. But you obeyed the Gospel, and so were made spiritually alive in Christ. So then your fleshly mind was changed by Christ to be spiritually minded, and not controlled by the flesh anymore.

 

[BBAS 64]

Did you hear the Gospel (the fact that you were lost in sin and needed a savior, and Jesus was the only one who had lived a perfect life and so could be that savior), believe it, and obey it? I am going to guess so since you are posting here and this forum is only for Christians.

Then you were physically alive but spiritually dead. But you obeyed the Gospel, and so were made spiritually alive in Christ. So then your fleshly mind was changed by Christ to be spiritually minded, and not controlled by the flesh anymore.

Good Day, Dog Brents



You are correct the Gospel calls people to obey the commands of God. It is the work of God that enables people to obey. God does what is needed (primary and effective cause) he does so with a purpose that cannot be thwarted. God alone is the cause we are simply affected by what God has done ( give, puts, removes) intentional action with a purpose and expected designed outcome.

Simple cause and effect


Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Here is the beauty of the NC.



Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.



God by doing the work makes Himself our God and we because of that are His people and we know Him we do not need to be taught our minds and hearts know God is the instrumental cause of our knowledge and we act in accordance with what we know.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Very true, but how is that redemption received? During baptism, (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16), and requires that we have first heard the Word (Rom 10:17) in which we have faith (belief put into action (James 2:26)), then repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), and confess Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:9-10).

Eph 2:8-9 tells us that grace is received through faith. Faith is belief in action. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

Good Day, Doug Brents

I think you should reread Eph:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Gods motivation in our salvation is His grace, the instrument (though) of our salvation is Faith. You did not do it... But God did and granted Faith, Repentance and a new heart of flesh that can and will confess Jesus as the Lord of Lords (for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks).

Salvation is of the Lord 100% all the time every time.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Doug Brents]

Good Day, Doug Brents

I think you should reread Eph:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Gods motivation in our salvation is His grace, the instrument (though) of our salvation is Faith. You did not do it... But God did and granted Faith, Repentance and a new heart of flesh that can and will confess Jesus as the Lord of Lords (for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks).

Salvation is of the Lord 100% all the time every time.

In Him,

Bill

2 Pet 3:9 says, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.” God does not want anyone to perish. So if His will alone we’re the deciding factor, then none would perish (be damned to Hell). The choice is ours to accept or deny the gift of salvation that God has offered. Yes, the power, and the path, and the opportunity are all 100% from God. Without Jesus’ sacrifice there would not even be a chance that any could be saved. But there is a way, and it is left for us to choose it; for us to repent, and turn to God through Christ Jesus.

 

[BBAS 64]

2 Pet 3:9 says, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.” God does not want anyone to perish. So if His will alone we’re the deciding factor, then none would perish (be damned to Hell). The choice is ours to accept or deny the gift of salvation that God has offered. Yes, the power, and the path, and the opportunity are all 100% from God. Without Jesus’ sacrifice there would not even be a chance that any could be saved. But there is a way, and it is left for us to choose it; for us to repent, and turn to God through Christ Jesus.

Good Day, Doug Brents

Ummmm..

Think you could deal with the text that I posted and the grammar in the text? If you would find a more Literal translation useful let me know and I will post it for you.

I would be more than Happy to deal with the pronouns and their noun counterparts in that text with in the context, and your assumptions you read into the text, but that should be another thread for sure.

How about Eph 2?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Doug Brents]

Good Day, Doug Brents

Ummmm..

Think you could deal with the text that I posted and the grammar in the text? If you would find a more Literal translation useful let me know and I will post it for you.

I would be more than Happy to deal with the pronouns and their noun counterparts in that text with in the context, and your assumptions you read into the text, but that should be another thread for sure.

How about Eph 2?

In Him,

Bill

Eph 2:8-9 is a very good passage, but it cannot be twisted to contradict any other passage of Scripture. Knowing that Jesus is the one and only way back into relationship with God, and knowing that God has given the choice to us whether we accept or deny Jesus as our Lord, let’s take a look at this passage more closely.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

By grace (a gift, undeserved and unearned)
you have been saved through faith (faith is the conduit through which grace is brought to us. Without it we cannot receive the grace of salvation. And we find in James 2 that there is no faith without action inspired by our belief. The action completes, or makes perfect, the belief.)
and this (this what? salvation)
is not of yourselves, it (salvation again)
is the gift of God.

Now, before we look at verse 9, let us understand that there are several passages which stipulate physical actions that “lead to/toward), or are required to receive, salvation.
Rom 10:9-10
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Mark 16:16
Acts 22:16
And there are others.
That being the case then, we cannot interpret Eph 2:9 to mean that there is no human action required to receive salvation. Rather, we must understand that it means we cannot be good enough, or do enough good deeds, or sacrifice enough, or be righteous enough to make God give us salvation. We have nothing to boast about, for there is no boasting in surrender.

In the analogy I gave earlier, a gift of a billion dollars wrapped up is sitting on your counter. You unwrap the gift. Is there anything to boast about in unwrapping it? Did unwrapping it “earn” it? Did you have the ability to use what was in the gift before you took action and unwrapped it? That is the meaning of Eph 2:8-9. God has given us a priceless gift. One that we had no power or ability to force Him to give. But that He, because He loves us even though we are His enemy, puts on the table and invites us to open through repentance, confession of Jesus’ names as our Lord, and baptism into Christ.

 

[BBAS 64]

Eph 2:8-9 is a very good passage, but it cannot be twisted to contradict any other passage of Scripture. Knowing that Jesus is the one and only way back into relationship with God, and knowing that God has given the choice to us whether we accept or deny Jesus as our Lord, let’s take a look at this passage more closely.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

By grace (a gift, undeserved and unearned)
you have been saved through faith (faith is the conduit through which grace is brought to us. Without it we cannot receive the grace of salvation. And we find in James 2 that there is no faith without action inspired by our belief. The action completes, or makes perfect, the belief.)
and this (this what? salvation)
is not of yourselves, it (salvation again)
is the gift of God.

Now, before we look at verse 9, let us understand that there are several passages which stipulate physical actions that “lead to/toward), or are required to receive, salvation.
Rom 10:9-10
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Mark 16:16
Acts 22:16
And there are others.
That being the case then, we cannot interpret Eph 2:9 to mean that there is no human action required to receive salvation. Rather, we must understand that it means we cannot be good enough, or do enough good deeds, or sacrifice enough, or be righteous enough to make God give us salvation. We have nothing to boast about, for there is no boasting in surrender.

In the analogy I gave earlier, a gift of a billion dollars wrapped up is sitting on your counter. You unwrap the gift. Is there anything to boast about in unwrapping it? Did unwrapping it “earn” it? Did you have the ability to use what was in the gift before you took action and unwrapped it? That is the meaning of Eph 2:8-9. God has given us a priceless gift. One that we had no power or ability to force Him to give. But that He, because He loves us even though we are His enemy, puts on the table and invites us to open through repentance, confession of Jesus’ names as our Lord, and baptism into Christ.

Good Day, Doug

dia- a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act


1c) of means
1c1) by
1c2) by the means of

Saved {verb} (the act) by the "means" of faith.

Faith is not the conduit of Grace, but it is the means God saves (act) people

He ran through the door to get out side.

The mean of getting outside was "through" the door.

All of Salvation is a gift (granted faith and repentance) with out the gifts from our adoptive Father we can do neither, but in His Grace he grants:

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

We do believe and repent God's gifts always have a design, intention, and a purpose and they never fail.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Doug Brents]

Good Day, Doug

dia- a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act


1c) of means
1c1) by
1c2) by the means of

Saved {verb} (the act) by the "means" of faith.

Faith is not the conduit of Grace, but it is the means God saves (act) people

He ran through the door to get out side.

The mean of getting outside was "through" the door.

In Him,

Bill

No, I am sorry to tell you, that is not what the passage says.

“He ran through the door to get out side.”

The means of getting outside was "running". Going “through” the door was the path he took.

It is grace, the gift of Jesus’ blood and His body hanging on the cross, by which we are saved. Faith is the conduit by which God brings it to us. Faith is a gift from God in the sense that everything we have, are, or ever will be is a gift from Him. But faith (the will to believe and obey God’s command through Christ) is our hearts response to Him.

 

[BBAS 64]

No, I am sorry to tell you, that is not what the passage says.

“He ran through the door to get out side.”

The means of getting outside was "running". Going “through” the door was the path he took.

It is grace, the gift of Jesus’ blood and His body hanging on the cross, by which we are saved. Faith is the conduit by which God brings it to us. Faith is a gift from God in the sense that everything we have, are, or ever will be is a gift from Him. But faith (the will to believe and obey God’s command through Christ) is our hearts response to Him.

Good Day,

I will let the grammatical use of the preposition stand for itself.

Indeed it is a Heart issue the will is dependent on the desires or the heart and is by it informed.

The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked

They can not come to Jesus and will not
They can not hear Jesus and will not
They love darkness and hate light
They can follow the laws of God and will not

Their wills are informed by a wicked heart


But God fixes the issue..... as only He alone can.

What actually happens when we ask Jesus to be in our lives?

Not to sound too harsh, but that really isn't the gospel. We are justified (declared righteous, acquitted, pardoned, have peace with God) "by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3: 24. Very true, but how is that redemption received? During baptism, (Rom...

www.christianforums.com

In Him,

Bill

 

[Doug Brents]

Good Day,

Indeed it is a Heart issue the will is dependent on the desires or the heart and is by it informed.

The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked

They can not come to Jesus and will not
They can not hear Jesus and will not
They love darkness and hate light
They can follow the laws of God and will not

Their wills are informed by a wicked heart


But God fixes the issue..... as only He alone can.

In Him,

Bill

The heart naturally resists God because of our sin nature, but the Spirit begins to work in us when we hear the Word preached (even before salvation is imparted) to allow us to hear Him and accept Him.

If none could seek God, or accept God, or hear God, or follow God’s laws, then no one would ever be saved; because EVERYONE was part of “they” before we were saved. “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. Since we all have sinned, and are therefore in need of a savior, we are all incapable of seeking God without God helping us to hear Him. And He has done that, through His written Word, and through the Holy Spirit working to draw the listener to the message.