What about those who never knew Jesus?

[RDKirk]

Whatever your "understanding" means to you, God's self declare character clearly guarantees He will provide the ability for everyone to be saved.

Man was created to dwell in a love relationship with God. In order to achieve that love relationship, God gave man freewill.
God knew in advance that man would rebel, and was therefore obliged beforehand to also provide a way to save and deliver man from his rebellion.
The alternative is that God made a mistake.

Good scriptures, but adds nothing here.

Of course Jesus is the only way. But Jesus is the God of the garden of Eden, the God we see throughout the OT. Jesus did not suddenly arrive on earth at Bethlehem.
Jeshua was the God of salvation that all the patriarchs knew. He is the God that Abraham spoke to.

Woo is an excellent word for what the Holy Spirit does in drawing man to the Father.

That only happens when the seed of the spirit is implanted, a seed which brings the new birth of regeneration, a regeneration which has been true since Adam in the garden.

Your lecturing is tedious. If you truly understood what you are quoting, you would see much clearer what those words actually meant.

Glad that's cleared up then.

The blood of Jesus, the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, did not just save people in the NT. His blood also saved all the OT saints who sought after the Lord.

I agree with what you're saying, and I would ask this question for people who disagree:

Is Job saved?

If so, how?

 

[-57]

Whatever your "understanding" means to you, God's self declare character clearly guarantees He will provide the ability for everyone to be saved.

Man was created to dwell in a love relationship with God. In order to achieve that love relationship, God gave man freewill.
God knew in advance that man would rebel, and was therefore obliged beforehand to also provide a way to save and deliver man from his rebellion.
The alternative is that God made a mistake.

Good scriptures, but adds nothing here.

Of course Jesus is the only way. But Jesus is the God of the garden of Eden, the God we see throughout the OT. Jesus did not suddenly arrive on earth at Bethlehem.
Jeshua was the God of salvation that all the patriarchs knew. He is the God that Abraham spoke to.

Woo is an excellent word for what the Holy Spirit does in drawing man to the Father.

That only happens when the seed of the spirit is implanted, a seed which brings the new birth of regeneration, a regeneration which has been true since Adam in the garden.

Your lecturing is tedious. If you truly understood what you are quoting, you would see much clearer what those words actually meant.

Glad that's cleared up then.

The blood of Jesus, the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, did not just save people in the NT. His blood also saved all the OT saints who sought after the Lord.

wow, lot said. I agree with much.
You said "Man was created to dwell in a love relationship with God." That is true, but man fell. The relationship was broken through Adams act of disobedience. People have the free-will to choose this act or that act. But a Ford or buy a Chevy.
But, as too free-will concerning salvation I still say no. The problem with free-will is what the decision to accept or reject Jesus is based upon. Pass life experience is typically in the decision making process and I don't think ones salvation is realized upon what happened to you, what you saw or learned.

Some free-willers add the "woo"aspect. I call it "here kitty, kitty" theory. Woo is a bad translation of the word used for "draw" as "drag" is a much better translation and the way the word is typically associated with in scripture.

I don't think God sets all the salvation "pieces" in front of you then says "choose". I see people as dead in their sins and trespasses. Dead, and can't choose unless God opens their hearts like he did with Lydia.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't think God sets all the salvation "pieces" in front of you then says "choose". I see people as dead in their sins and trespasses. Dead, and can't choose unless God opens their hearts like he did with Lydia.

So here is the question: How long before Paul arrived there had God enabled Lydia to believe? Or the jailer in the same town?

I've met a number of people who testify to have gone for years, decades, realizing that something was wrong in their lives and finding no inner peace. Until someone told them about Jesus, and they instantly realized, "That is it."

There are people all over the world who have been and are enabled by the Father to believe in Christ. Inasmuch as Christ literally went through a hell of a lot of pain to make that possible, it would be curious that anyone's eternal salvation would then be totally subject to the frail and fickle will of another human being.

Yes, I do know some preachers assert, "If you don't go out and 'share the gospel,' you'll be responsible for someone going to hell for eternity," but I don't believe Christ is so easily thwarted.

 

[-57]

So here is the question: How long before Paul arrived there had God enabled Lydia to believe? Or the jailer in the same town?

I've met a number of people who testify to have gone for years, decades, realizing that something was wrong in their lives and finding no inner peace. Until someone told them about Jesus, and they instantly realized, "That is it."

There are people all over the world who have been and are enabled by the Father to believe in Christ. Inasmuch as Christ literally went through a hell of a lot of pain to make that possible, it would be curious that anyone's eternal salvation would then be totally subject to the frail and fickle will of another human being.

Yes, I do know some preachers assert, "If you don't go out and 'share the gospel,' you'll be responsible for someone going to hell for eternity," but I don't believe Christ is so easily thwarted.

I also don't think we are responsible for anyones salvation. Many parents will say if we only did this or that for Johnny he would have been a believer.

I believe in regeneration first and with that comes faith and belief as well as repentance. It may feel like it's our choice.

Some describe salvation as a man in a lake drowning. Before he goes under for the last time a life preserver is thrown to him and all he has to do is reach out and grab it to be salved. I see it this way. The man is already dead on the bottom of the lake. Dead. God has to jump in and pull the man to shore and then restore life.

 

[Not David]

You said "Just leave it to God, he is a good God who loves mankind. It seems like a lot of people think God is trying to find something to get you and condemn you but that is not the case."

I pointed out God doesn't have to look. People are already condemned.

Babies and the mentally ill can't believe. Are they condemned?

 

[Not David]

So here is the question: How long before Paul arrived there had God enabled Lydia to believe? Or the jailer in the same town?

I've met a number of people who testify to have gone for years, decades, realizing that something was wrong in their lives and finding no inner peace. Until someone told them about Jesus, and they instantly realized, "That is it."

There are people all over the world who have been and are enabled by the Father to believe in Christ. Inasmuch as Christ literally went through a hell of a lot of pain to make that possible, it would be curious that anyone's eternal salvation would then be totally subject to the frail and fickle will of another human being.

Yes, I do know some preachers assert, "If you don't go out and 'share the gospel,' you'll be responsible for someone going to hell for eternity," but I don't believe Christ is so easily thwarted.

Unfortunately some believe God is limited to some cosmic laws that won't allow him to forgive sins.

 

[RDKirk]

Unfortunately some believe God is limited to some cosmic laws that won't allow him to forgive sins.

Yes.

The thing is this: God applies the principle of "Need to Know."

Scripture does not include everything the Lord has done. It explicitly says so:

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. -- John 21.

If the whole world cannot contain all the things Jesus did in 33 years, how can we think the bible contains all that the Lord has done since the dawn of creation?

Scripture contains what we need to know to accomplish the mission He has given us. We are commanded to reach all we can--and we do it because He commanded it.

His command is in itself sufficient reason--God does not need our "buy in."

We don't need to know about how He will handle those we don't reach.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="The Righterzpen

Atonement is the only predication that prevents someone from being condemned. So the notion that Jesus atoned for every single human being that ever lived and that people are only condemned because of unbelief; runs into a couple of problems.

1. Unbelief is not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (the only unpardonable sin). We know this because everyone is in a state of unbelief at some point or another. So if Jesus paid for all of your sin, that would include the sin of unbelief.

2. If Jesus paid for "Joe's" sin and "Joe" ends up in hell to atone for his own sin; that's two people paying for the sin of one, and that's not justice.

I would respond that the problem you are having here is that you view salvation as a legal transaction, which is the Western Roman Courtroom view, rather than a healing of something broken, which is our natures.

The other problem would be that Romans 5: 18-19 is rather explicit that just as by one man condemnation came into the world, so by one man, justification came into the world. All condemned in Adam, all justified in Christ.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

3. God would have no justification to condemn anyone if atonement was universal.

According to the verses I posted above atonement is universal. Christ left no one out. Now how this works out in practicality is another issue altogether, but the Cross brought salvation to all mankind.

4. Jesus said that all that the father gives to Him will come and He would loose nothing. (John 6:39) So if He atoned for someone He lost; then Jesus is a liar.

Of which class of people is Jesus speaking? Many of the statements He made were in reference to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and who would be "saved" from it and who would not be. Many of the statements He made also were about the coming Kingdom and who would get to enter it in chronological time and who would not.

5. Jesus states pretty emphatically that there are those who will be condemned and punished for their sin. Thus another way we know atonement isn't universal.

Being punished for your wrongdoing does not mean that the atonement is limited. It would only mean that if Calvin was right, which he wasn't.

6. The notion of universal atonement makes a portion of Jesus's work ineffectual.

No, on the contrary, it makes it a ripping success!!!

7. Lastly if someone who's intended to be redeemed isn't; than God fails the definition of God.
a. God didn't know they wouldn't come. (He's not omniscient.)
b. God could not prevent their being lost. (He's not omnipotent.)
c. God was unwilling to enact that person's salvation. (He is unloving.)
d. No one is secure. (God is capricious, unfair, unjust and evil.)

These "problems" are exactly what is wrong with Calvinism.

A.) God is omniscient, therefore He knew of the Fall and had plans to overcome it. To say that God is omniscient, knew the Fall was coming, and yet couldn't figure out a way to save all mankind means that God is either not omniscient and omnipotent, or that He is not love, for if He is omniscient and omnipotent, and yet chooses that He will not create a program by which everyone who ever lives is saved, then He cannot be love.

Love would never do such a thing.

 

[AppleGold]

1. So here is the question: How long before Paul arrived there had God enabled Lydia to believe? Or the jailer in the same town?

2. I've met a number of people who testify to have gone for years, decades, realizing that something was wrong in their lives and finding no inner peace. Until someone told them about Jesus, and they instantly realized, "That is it."

3. There are people all over the world who have been and are enabled by the Father to believe in Christ. Inasmuch as Christ literally went through a hell of a lot of pain to make that possible, it would be curious that anyone's eternal salvation would then be totally subject to the frail and fickle will of another human being.

4. Yes, I do know some preachers assert, "If you don't go out and 'share the gospel,' you'll be responsible for someone going to hell for eternity," but I don't believe Christ is so easily thwarted.

1. Don't know
2. Lucky you. Not many of us had that experience.
3. That he did.
4. Don't know about that. You can share the gospel all you want, but you have to make it presentable. I remember a Jahobah witness gave me a pamplet at work. I read it on my break and tried to pass it on to my coworker. She told me she was an atheist. At one point we were are all at a state of unbelief, which reads to me that you don't have to be a total atheist, ever, just to have doubts. But she did not believe a little, she did not believe a lot, she was a total atheist. Some atheists believe that Jesus was not who he said he was rather than he didn't exist. But if you can convert a total atheist (one who believed he never existed at all), then more power to you. Now if parents didn't go to church and drag me with them when I was little, it is possible I would be an atheist, but I'll never know.

 

[RDKirk]

4. Don't know about that. You can share the gospel all you want, but you have to make it presentable. I remember a Jahobah witness gave me a pamplet at work. I read it on my break and tried to pass it on to my coworker. She told me she was an atheist. At one point we were are all at a state of unbelief, which reads to me that you don't have to be a total atheist, ever, just to have doubts. But she did not believe a little, she did not believe a lot, she was a total atheist. Some atheists believe that Jesus was not who he said he was rather than he didn't exist. But if you can convert a total atheist (one who believed he never existed at all), then more power to you. Now if parents didn't go to church and drag me with them when I was little, it is possible I would be an atheist, but I'll never know.

Evangelism is telling people what Jesus did for them.
Witnessing is telling people what Jesus did for you.

According to scripture, every member of the Body of Christ has a part in the evangelistic mission of the Body, but not every member is an evangelist. The scriptural model for the evangelist makes three points:

1. An evangelist is called to that office. Not everyone is so called. (1 Corinthians 12)
2. An evangelist must be fully trained in theology by the Church. (Acts 18)
3. An evangelist must be commissioned to a specific evangelistic mission by the Church. (Acts 13)
4. The evangelist is accountable for the results of his mission to the Church. (Acts 15, Acts 21)

These four points modeled in scripture for evangelists are not necessary to give witness for what Jesus has done for you.

Although not everyone is called to be an evangelist, all believers are obligated to be witnesses to what Jesus has done in our own lives.

1. We are obligated to give witness to what we have personally seen and heard.

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. 1 Peter 3

As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard -- Acts 4

If anyone sins because they do not speak up when they hear a public charge to testify regarding something they have seen or learned about, they will be held responsible. -- Leviticus 5

2. Knowledge of theology is not necessary:

"I don't know whether He is a sinner, but one thing I do know. Once I was blind but now I see!" -- John 9

3. Witness alone can be immensely effective to bring people to the evangelist:

Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” They came out of the town and made their way toward him.
....
Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.”
....
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.” -- John 4

But an important point is that whether as evangelists or witnesses, we are not responsible for causing anyone to believe. That is the responsibility of God.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them
....
This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them. John 6

All we are responsible for is laying it out there. God is responsible for enabling belief. We do not know who has been enabled. They don't even know they've been enabled. But we can know that there are people out there who are enabled, and those enabled will respond.

 

[Francis Drake]

wow, lot said. I agree with much.
You said "Man was created to dwell in a love relationship with God." That is true, but man fell. The relationship was broken through Adams act of disobedience. People have the free-will to choose this act or that act. But a Ford or buy a Chevy.
But, as too free-will concerning salvation I still say no. The problem with free-will is what the decision to accept or reject Jesus is based upon. Pass life experience is typically in the decision making process and I don't think ones salvation is realized upon what happened to you, what you saw or learned.

Receiving eternal life has nothing to do with past life experiences, otherwise we wouldn't have seen John the Baptist responding to Jesus whilst still in the womb.
The presence of God is only ever recognised by the human spirit and never by the human intellect.

Some free-willers add the "woo"aspect. I call it "here kitty, kitty" theory. Woo is a bad translation of the word used for "draw" as "drag" is a much better translation and the way the word is typically associated with in scripture.

When I used the word "woo", it wasn't meant to be a translation, just a good description of how the Holy Spirit works.
If as many say, the Holy Spirit "drags people away kicking and screaming" then the HS is a rapist, impregnating unwilling victims.

I don't think God sets all the salvation "pieces" in front of you then says "choose".

Of course God doesn't do that.
You are presuming that being born again requires acceptance of a load of theological facts, when it does nothing of the sort.

I see people as dead in their sins and trespasses. Dead, and can't choose unless God opens their hearts like he did with Lydia.

You are mixing being born again and salvation, two different processes.
Being born again is the start of everything. Being saved is an ongoing process that lasts till we die.

 

[Francis Drake]

I also don't think we are responsible for anyones salvation. Many parents will say if we only did this or that for Johnny he would have been a believer.

We have no responsibility for anyone getting born again. That is entirely dependent on how a man responds to the convicting power of the HS on his heart.
We, however are certainly responsible for encouraging that man how he walks out his salvation.

I believe in regeneration first and with that comes faith and belief as well as repentance. It may feel like it's our choice.

I agree that regeneration must come first, but again our response to God is our own freewill decision. Scripture makes that extremely clear. (ie. Romans1)

Some describe salvation as a man in a lake drowning. Before he goes under for the last time a life preserver is thrown to him and all he has to do is reach out and grab it to be salved. I see it this way. The man is already dead on the bottom of the lake. Dead. God has to jump in and pull the man to shore and then restore life.

You conflate being regenerated and being saved, when they are different processes. That's why your analogies are confused.

 

[-57]

You conflate being regenerated and being saved, when they are different processes. That's why your analogies are confused.

Regeneration is being born again. That is being saved.