What about those folks who have never had opportunity to accept or reject Christ?

Ron Gurley

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What about those folks who have never had an "opportunity" to accept or reject Christ? Do they die "unsaved"?

Does God spiritually draw / call ALL spirits of Mankind???

For Man To spiritually (by spiritual "free will") ACCEPT or REJECT the calling/drawing?

Does He only call/draw ONCE ...or...many times?

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
 

timewerx

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They get saved based on their works.

In fact, everyone does. Your works will be determined by what you believe. It's impossible to have believed and have zero evidence of it.

In fact even if someone never seen any Christian, never seen the Bible does good works, it's because of God in him or her even if they didn't know it.
 
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Aleksandros

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Is God's power limited to Earth? Can He not do anything for a person after death? Did He not create death, and hell?

Think about North Korea- are those who die there all condemned? Is someone who worked in a labor camp all his life, and forced to worship the Kim family, and never even had the chance to hear about the true God, now in essentially another similar situation in hell?

He deserves hell, sure. But does he get it?

Also, God may call only once, or multiple times, depending on the individual. No one can dogmatically assert either, I don't think.
 
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Another Lazarus

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They shall be judged according to their works

Rev 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH
 
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It really surprises me how humans can assume that an all wise and just God would judge people's behavior without taking into consideration inherent involuntary ignorance. Especially since Jesus himself put forth ignorance as a criteria for showing forgiveness or mercy.

Luke 23:34
New International Version
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
 
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dhh712

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What about those folks who have never had an "opportunity" to accept or reject Christ? Do they die "unsaved"?

Does God spiritually draw / call ALL spirits of Mankind???

For Man To spiritually (by spiritual "free will") ACCEPT or REJECT the calling/drawing?

Does He only call/draw ONCE ...or...many times?

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

I would leave those matters to God and trust the Lord to be just and merciful. What many people don't understand is that all mankind deserves the wrath of God. That is why it would make sense for even those who have no opportunity to know Jesus to suffer God's punishment--we all deserve it. Otherwise, it really wouldn't make any sense and then the Lord can be seen as being unjust.

Another way to look at it, which is purely speculative, is that it is Jesus ALONE that saves. The part about accepting the Lord and knowing him, seems to me to still be a work attributable in part to man. You still have to DO something to be saved--knowing is doing something, it's a verb. Jesus could have laid down his life for those who, for some reason in his infinite counsel, he decided to have them not know about him in this life. Maybe the Lord puts these people in existence so that we can see for ourselves that we really don't trust the Lord's judgment, that we really are that sinful so to think that our own judgment is morally higher than God's.

The basic point is that God intervened in YOUR life. YOU have an opportunity to know him. Try your best as the Lord gives you opportunities to share with others about Jesus. Know that it is his sovereign will alone that will turn their hearts (so that maybe we don't fall into this line of thinking, "well maybe I should just shut up about Jesus 'cause if I tell people about him and they don't accept him then they may have had a chance at it if they hadn't known anything about him"). Leave the rest to the Lord Jesus' perfect justice and mercy. Trust the Lord and lean not on your own understanding.
 
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Ron Gurley

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1 Chronicles 28:9...King David upon tranferring the "throne" to "wise" son Soloman
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. (CHOICE)
IF you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
but IF you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Is it the "duty" of Mankind to truly and spiritually "seek out" God?


Matthew 7:7-8 [ Prayer and the Golden Rule ]...Jesus' Sermon on Mount to "crowds"...SALVATION??
“Ask, and it will be given to you;
seek, and you will find;
knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and
he who seeks finds, and
to him who knocks it will be opened.
 
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Hillsage

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What about those folks who have never had an "opportunity" to accept or reject Christ? Do they die "unsaved"?
Yes, they die unsaved, but they don't die unforgiven. Jesus died for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world. And as far as God is concerned they're paid for. As far as man is concerned, he either does, or does not know/believe that.

Does God spiritually draw / call ALL spirits of Mankind???
Scripture says "he will draw all men". Whether that's spirit or soul which is 'drawn/called' might be another question.

JOH 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

For Man To spiritually (by spiritual "free will") ACCEPT or REJECT the calling/drawing?
No one can resist the "dragging" of God, which is the contextual definition of the word "draw" in other verses. And no one is initially saved or "born" again of God by their free will.

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

But if God hasn't "called, drawn, predestined, ordained to believe", then you aren't making that decision this side of glory. Your knee will bow and your tongue will confess later.

Does He only call/draw ONCE ...or...many times?
He only needs to call once, because that's what determines whether or not you can even hear TO believe. And when you've heard 'for the first time', I personally don't think you can refuse IMO.

ISA 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

This verse has nothing to do with getting unbelievers saved. It is written to the 'saved' church concerning having supper or eating/dining with Jesus.
 
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Ron Gurley

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What about?:
1. infant and "unknowing" , spiritually immature children
2. the Mentally Impaired
3. disabled in soul/spirit/body...sensory deficit
4. remote "Nations", like the "Third World"
5. hardened "hearts"...rebellious, proud and wilfull??
6. Other examples??
 
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Ron Gurley

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God wants ALL to be saved....1 Timothy 2:1-6 (4-5) (NASB); 2 Peter 3:9

ALL are DRAWN / CALLED by God. Few ACCEPT the LIGHT...the Grace...the spirit-led gifts of FAITH / BELIEF

God is in Sovreign control.
If anyone truly and spiritually seeks THE God, God will save Him from eternal death and judgment, save him unto "eternal Life" in the heavenly realms,

Romans 4:2-3...Salvation: Not by "works"...CREDITED righteousness
For if Abraham was justified by works,
he has something to boast about,
but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say?
“Abraham believed God, and
it was credited to him as righteousness.”

But that should not dampen the zeal of obeying the Great Commission....Matthew 28's end.

And spreading the "good news" may be a pre-requisite to the Second Coming of Jesus the God-Man.

Matthew 24:14
This gospel of the kingdom (Divine Messiah has come) shall be preached in the whole world
as a testimony to all the NATIONS (ethnos =societies),
and THEN "the end" (of the age of Grace) will come.

AND don't forget the JUDGMENTS:

Matthew 25: 46 These (goat UNbelieving NATIONS) will go away into "eternal punishment",
but the (imputed) righteous (sheep believing NATIONS) into "eternal life".”

Matthew 13...The parable of the Wheat (believers) and Tares (UNbelievers)
37“The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world;
and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the "end of the age" (of Grace: Matthew 24).
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and
they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
and will throw them into the furnace of fire (lake of fire: Rev.?);
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
He who has ears, let him hear.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #8: "they die unsaved, but they don't die unforgiven.

Forgiveness of sins is ONLY for true BELIEVERS....the "saved". UNbelievers are Unforgiven. 1 John 1
Forgiveness of sins is a primary benefit of the SALVATION spiritual EVENT!

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

A>I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed

B>I AM BEING saved from the POWER of sin / death....SEE: 1 John 4-5..."overcome the world" ....and

C>I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin / death...SEE: New Heavens and New Earth and New Jerusalem in Revelation

Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS for believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION!!
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus will never "..cast out " a true "sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40

Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...."
Romans 8: 35-39

John 10...Jesus the God-Man holds you in His HAND...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!

The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30

NO ONE has EVER undone these spiritual works!

If GOOD WORKS do not follow salvation, then perhaps there was no true salvation in the first place!

Theological Results of a Christan-follower's Salvation: Work of Jesus on the Cross cannot be UNDONE!

1 Peter 1:8-9
Ephesians 2:6-10
Romans 10:10

Substitution = "for" = in place of + for the benefit of
Matthew 20:28
Galatians 3:13
1 Peter 3:18
2 Corinthians 5:21

Atonement = "at-one ment" with God through the required SACRIFICE for SIN ...once ...FOR... all
Hebrews 7:27
Hebrews 9:26-28
Hebrews 10:10-14
1 Peter 3:18

Redemption - purchased out of the market place / pawn shop of sin and freed by paying a price
1 Corinthians 1:30
Hebrews 9:12
1 Timothy 2:5-6
Titus 2:11-14

Reconciliation - to change from the status of alienation to the status of family
2 Corinthians 5:19-21
Hebrews 2:17

Adoption - receiving new status by being taken from a family not your own into a new family...
from outsider to full privileges of "son"
Isaiah 62:2
Romans 8:12-17
Galatians 4:1-5

Propitiation - appease or satisfy a God angry with sin and be reconciled with Him
Mark 3:29
Mark 14:21
Romans 1:18
Ephesians 5:6
Romans 3:21-26.
1 John 2:1-2

Justification - "just-if -i -had never sinned"~ = forgiveness of sins?
legal term : not guilty, acquitted, no sentence, no condemnation, law has been perfectly been satisfied, fine paid.
Luke 24:47
Acts 10:43
1 John 2:12
Acts 13:39
Romans 3:21-26
Romans 5:1,9
Romans 10:10
1 Corinthians 6:11
Galatians 2:16-17
Galatians 3:11,24
Titus 3:7
James 2:21-26.
1 John 1:8-10

Santified / Sanctification: - "to set apart" : the goats become sheep and
then slowly become "saintly"/"holy"/ Christ-like, more complete and mature
John 17:19
Acts 26:18
1 Corinthians 1:2
1 Corinthians 6:11
Hebrews 10:10-14


1. POSITION changes at salvation ...from outsider to full "son" of God
Hebrews 10:10-14
1 Corinthians 6:11
2. PRACTICE changes, and there is spiritual growth toward maturity as followers imitate the model of perfection
1 Peter 1:6-7, 13-16
3. PRESENCE and POWER of sin in the believer's life disappears totally in time eternal
Revelations: 21-22

for atonement... Hebrew 3725...kippur...atonement (only in 8 OT books?)

Exodus 29:36
“Each day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement, and
you shall purify the altar when you make atonement for it, and
you shall anoint it to consecrate it.

the atonement. ...Greek 2643....katallage...adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour

Romans 5:11 (KJV)
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the ATONEMENT.

Romans 5:11 (NASB)
And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom we have now received the RECONCILIATION.

Hebrews 4:15 Hebrews 4:15 (NASB)
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


Isaiah 53 (NASB)...Jesus: The Suffering Servant

John 1:1...[ The Deity of Jesus Christ ]
In the beginning was the Word (logos) , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....
18 No one has seen God (the Father) at any time;
the only begotten God (the Son) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory,
glory as of the only begotten (not made) from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Colossians 1
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of DEITY) to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;
through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

2 Peter 1:3
seeing that His DIVINE power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness,
through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

Matthew 6:28
Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,

Matthew 6 (NASB)
26 Look at the "birds of the air",
that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns,
and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.
Are you not worth much more than they?
27 And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
28 And why are you worried about clothing?
Observe how the lilies of the field grow;
they do not toil nor do they spin,
29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.
30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace,
will He not much more clothe you?
You of little faith!
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’
32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things;
for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness,
and all these things will be added to you.


"The foxes"...Greek 258...alopex...
I.a fox...II.metaphor: a sly or crafty man
 
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icxn

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If I may post a story. It's a little long, but it shows that God is always looking for opportunities to save people:

The Ascetic and the Thief
There was an ascetic elder and anchorite, who had been leading an ascetic life in a desert place for seventy years, in fasting, chastity and vigil. Although he labored for God for so many years, he was never accounted worthy to receive a vision or revelation from God. Thinking about this and bearing this in mind he said, "Perhaps my ascesis is not pleasing to God for some reason I do not know, and my work is unacceptable; and on account of this I am not able to receive a revelation or behold any mystery."

Contemplating these things the elder began to ask and supplicate God even more, praying and saying, "Lord, if my ascesis is pleasing to you and you accept my deeds, I - a sinner and unworthy one - ask of you, to grant even unto me a drop of your gifts, that I may learn from the appearance of a mystery that you have heard my prayer, so that emboldened and enlightened I may live out my ascetical life." As the holy elder was praying and asking these things, he heard the voice of God say to him, "If you desire to see My glory, go to the inner desert and mysteries will be revealed to you."

When the elder heard this, he went out of his cell and went far from there. A thief then came across him who, upon seeing the abba, violently rushed at him desiring to kill him. And when he caught him he said to him, "It's a good thing I ran into you, Elder, so that I can finish my job and be saved. For we thieves have this custom and law and belief: that he who commits one hundred murders will surely go to paradise. So I, having labored hard, have murdered ninety-nine, and lacking one more I have tried hard to finish my hundredth and be saved. So I really owe you and thank you, because today I will delight in paradise because of you."

And when the elder heard the thief say these things, he was beside himself and was afraid at this sudden and hopeless temptation. And turning the eyes of his mind towards God and reflecting on these things he said, "Is this Your glory, Lord and Master, which You promised to show me Your servant? What counsel is this You have given me, to leave my cell and be informed by this dreadful mystery? With such gifts you pay the recompense for the ascesis which I underwent for Your sake? Now I truly know, Lord, that all the labor of my ascesis was in vain; and every one of my prayers before You was considered as abhorrent and a desecration. However, I thank you for Your philanthropy, Lord, that, as You know best, You chastise my unworthiness, as is needed, because of my uncountable sins and you have given me over to the hands of a thief and murderer."

Saying these things the pitiful elder thirsted greatly and said to the thief, "My child, since I am a sinner God has given me over to you for you to kill me and for you to have your way, as you have desired, and I to be deprived of life, as the evil man that I am. For this I ask you to do me a favor - a slight wish - and give me a little water to drink, and then cut my head off." When the thief had listened to the elder, willing to fulfill the elder's wish he put his sword back into its sheath, as he had been holding it out. And he pulled out a flask from his bosom and went to a river that was close by so as to fill it up and take to the elder to drink. And there where he went to fill the flask, he gave up his soul and died. So, when a little time passed and the thief did not come, the elder pondered and said, "Perhaps he was sleepy and fell asleep and that is why he is slow in returning and I will be able flee to my cell. But seeing as I am old, I am afraid, since I do not have the strength to run, and as one weak I will become tired and he will catch up with me. Then I will anger him and he will want to torture me without pity, cutting me in many pieces while still alive. Better I do not leave, but go to the river to see what he is doing." So the elder went thinking about such things and found him dead, and when he saw him he marveled and was taken aback. And lifting his hands toward heaven, he said, "Lord Who loves mankind, if You do not reveal to me this mystery, I will not lower my hands. Therefore, pity my toil and reveal to me this thing."

As the elder prayed these things, an angel of the Lord came and said to him, "Do you see, Abba, this dead man who lies before you? For your sake he was taken by sudden death, so that you may escape and he not kill you. Therefore, bury him as one saved. For obeying you by returning his murderous sword to its sheath in order to bring you water to quench the flame of your thirst, he pacified the wrath of God and was accepted as a worker of obedience. And his divulgence of the ninety-nine murders was counted as confession. Therefore, bury him and consider him among the saved. And by this, know the expanse of God's philanthropy and compassion. And rejoicing, go to your cell and be avid in your prayers, and do not feel sorrow and say that you are a sinner and deprived of revelation. For behold, God has revealed a mystery to you. And know this too, that all the toil of your ascesis is acceptable before God; for there is no toil that is done for God's sake that does not come before Him." Having heard this the elder buried the dead man.

From a Gerontikon manuscript, from the Holy Monastery of Philotheou
 
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Hillsage

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Post #8: "they die unsaved, but they don't die unforgiven.

Forgiveness of sins is ONLY for true BELIEVERS....the "saved". UNbelievers are Unforgiven. 1 John 1
Forgiveness of sins is a primary benefit of the SALVATION spiritual EVENT!
According to you, but not according to Jesus and scripture.
LUK 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Murderers of Jesus are forgiven 'without 'believing or confessing'. Just like the woman caught in adultery.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He paid the price for all, debt paid, as far as God is concerned. Whether you know it or not makes no difference. All were reconciled TO GOD at the cross, and that is the gospel.

2CO 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That's the good news we are told to tell people. And me telling someone to 'accept the fact that the price has been paid' and 'you ARE forgiven', doesn't make you one bit 'more forgiven' than you were before you believed. Accepting the gospel truth just makes you feel God's forgiveness for the first time in your life.

You want the 'good news' to be you're saved from hell. But the plan that 'omniscient God' ends up sending most of his beloved creation to eternal hell. IOW, Devil wins most. Pretty bad plan IMO.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS
Absolutely, but not for the purpose of GOING to heaven. Our works after getting our spirit born again and saved isn't for the purpose of GOING but for rewards to be received IN heaven. Rewards earned for working out the salvation of our SOUL. And soul salvation takes place after our SPIRIT first gets saved/born again.

A>I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed
Great verse. Read it in context of verse 7.

EPH 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So, in the ages to come, who is God going to show his 'SAVING GRACE' TO? Obviously not to all of US who got saved this side of glory RIGHT? Verse 7 is talking about the saving grace which you received by faith in this age and so gleefully quote 'out of context' all the time, forgetting about those who were never "called, drawn, chosen, predestined, ordained to believe". All the preceding 'red' is scriptural accounts which you never even rebutted in my last post, so do it now.

Speeking of rebutting, I'm done rebutting your list, since I've already rebutted you last post WITH SCRIPTURE and have done done so again with this post so far. So maybe you can go back and rebut my last post. I'm happy to deal with your POV on all you've quoted. But don't think I'm going to continue to chase your scriptures when you never rebut mine. I've studied all you've written...and I've believed this way for over 40 years. You aren't going to surprise me with your orthodox scriptural POV. That's where I started to begin with. :sorry:

I.a fox...II.metaphor: a sly or crafty man
Yes, and they've been around for a long time, mistranslating scripture to protect 'the traditions and commandments OF MEN.'

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
 
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Der Alte

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What about?:
1. infant and "unknowing" , spiritually immature children
2. the Mentally Impaired
3. disabled in soul/spirit/body...sensory deficit
4. remote "Nations", like the "Third World"
5. hardened "hearts"...rebellious, proud and wilfull??
6. Other examples??
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 2:14
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
 
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Raphael Jauregui

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What about those folks who have never had an "opportunity" to accept or reject Christ? Do they die "unsaved"?

Does God spiritually draw / call ALL spirits of Mankind???

For Man To spiritually (by spiritual "free will") ACCEPT or REJECT the calling/drawing?

Does He only call/draw ONCE ...or...many times?

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
As a Christian Universalist, that is a universalist who is also Trinitarian, I am convinced and firm in that conviction that Christ will reconcile all of creation, including all persons, to himself and to Godself. Those who never had the opportunity and those who were not 'christians' in life are all, same as Christians, invited by God's love to develop a relationship with him after we die. This is a view well supported by orthodox Christian saints including St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Nazianzus.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #2: "They get saved based on their works."
Post #4 "They shall be judged according to their works."
Revelation 20:12 applies ONLY to UNsaved UNbelievers!...The Great White Throne sentencing!

Post #15:
LUKE 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive THEM; for THEY know not what THEY do. And THEY parted his raiment, and cast lots.

NOTE: The "they/them" refers to ONLY the soldiers driving the nails, carrying out the crucifixion!

"Murderers of Jesus are forgiven 'without 'believing or confessing"
DEAD WRONG! (John 3)

1 John 2:2 ...applies ONLY to believers to whom John writes! The "world" has to ACCEPT salvation on God's terms! John 3 AGAIN!!

2 Cor. 5:19...applies ONLY to believers to whom Paul writes.

RE: "the woman caught in adultery"

Luke 7:50: And He said to the woman, “Your FAITH has SAVED you; go in peace.”

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through (spirit-led) faith (BELIEF);
and that (FAITH) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


What spiritual "good works" did these folks "DO"???

1. infant and "unknowing" , spiritually immature children
2. the Mentally Impaired
3. disabled in soul/spirit/body...sensory deficit
4. remote "Nations", like the "Third World"
5. hardened "hearts"...rebellious, proud and wilfull??
6. Other examples??

This is NOT a FAITH/BELIEF VS "WORKS" FORUM...OFF POINT!

James 2:22(NASB)
22 You see that FAITH (BELIEF) was working with his (ABRAHAM's) works,
and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; (MATURED)

The spiritual POSITION of Believers is NOT judged...ONLY their "good works" or bad.

John 3:18...Judging spiritual POSITION IN Christ
He who believes in Him is NOT judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Luke 6:37
“Do not judge ("one another"), and you will not be judged; and
do not condemn, and you will not be condemned;
(do) pardon, and you will be pardoned.

Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)
10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS
1 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,
which is Jesus Christ.(salvation)
12 If any man BUILDS on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his WORK will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it (WORKS) to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK.
14 If what he has BUILT survives, he will receive his REWARD.(CROWNS)
15 If it (WORK) is burned up, he will suffer LOSS;
he himself will be SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames.(miraculous delivery)

Romans 14:1-23...BELIEVERS:....Do not judge one another
For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister?
Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister?
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
So then, each of us will be accountable to God....
for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
 
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Hillsage

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Post #15:
LUKE 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive THEM; for THEY know not what THEY do. And THEY parted his raiment, and cast lots.

NOTE: The "they/them" refers to ONLY the soldiers driving the nails, carrying out the crucifixion!
What Jesus did in forgiving the soldiers, reflects the unilateral forgiving heart of God. Your 'limiting His heart' reflects the hearts of men. And is contrary to the scripture I quoted proving that point and which you never refuted.

2CO 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This unilateral "not imputing of their/YOUR trespasses", was accomplished 'for you' on the cross before you had ever even been born to commit the trespasses you have committed since the cross.

"Murderers of Jesus are forgiven 'without 'believing or confessing"
DEAD WRONG! (John 3)

LIVING WORD RIGHT!!
LUK 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

If God isn't LIVING this same standard of unilateral forgiveness in the scripture above, then He is holding YOU to a higher standard of forgiveness than God Himself lives up to. :doh:

1 John 2:2 ...applies ONLY to believers to whom John writes! The "world" has to ACCEPT salvation on God's terms! John 3 AGAIN!!
You just don't get. I'm talking about unilateral forgiveness and propitiation for EVERYONE just like this verse you comment on, but don't quote.

1JO 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And your misapplication of verse 3 has to do with SALVATION not propitiation or forgiveness from God.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Jesus died for your forgiveness. Jesus paid the price for your sins AND the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. THAT is the gospel. Verse 3 is merely confirming that a Christian's saving knowledge proves that you 'know' 'that fact'. Verse 3 pertains to 'the saved' and verse 2 pertains to the "whole world".
2 Cor. 5:19...applies ONLY to believers to whom Paul writes.
If you want to interpret it wrong to support your indoctrination, then at least quote it, so others can easily see the error of your way.

2CO 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting THEIR trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

"THEIR trespasses" isn't talking about the believers of Corinth as you are misleading others to believe.

RE: "the woman caught in adultery"

Luke 7:50: And He said to the woman, “Your FAITH has SAVED you; go in peace.”
For one thing, wrong woman, this woman in Luke was "a sinner". She was not 'the woman caught in adultery.' The woman 'caught in adultery and deserving death ACCORDING TO THE LAW got a judgement of 'NO CONDEMNATION' from Jesus.

JOH 8:10 Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."

And, as to your misquote in Luke as 'the woman caught in adultery', well lets look at it in the light of the NT. BTW, The NT BEFORE THE CROSS of Jesus. Read it in context and you see nothing regarding her forgiveness being based upon her repentance. Scripture PLAINLY states this fact.

LUK 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she LOVED much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.


She wasn't eternally forgiven because Jesus HADN'T DIED on the cross for her sins, she was temporally forgiven because of her TEMPORAL WORKS of anointing his head with oil and drying his feet with her hair PERIOD. WORKS which help with the salvation of your soul, but do nothing for the salvation of your spirit. But that I suspect this is water too deep for one not having an understanding of progressive salvation from spirit to soul to body. :scratch: But, that's what happens when one's understanding is as fundamentally as WRONG as a salvation army girl a hundred years ago.

"The story has been told of a beautiful incident that occurred many years ago in the North of England. A young Salvation Army girl, only recently saved, was overflowing with the joy of the Lord and was eager to share her salvation with all others. Walking along the street of a little Durham city, she saw a tall, gray-haired man coming toward her and, stranger though he was, she stopped him and said, "Pardon me, sir, but are you saved?" The tall stranger leaned over toward her and answered, with a quizzical smile playing on his kindly face: "My dear, do you mean ESOTHEN, or SOZOMENOS, or SOTHESOMAI?" The Salvation Army girl was bewildered - it was "all Greek" to her! She did not know that she had stopped bishop Westcott, one of the greatest of Greek scholars and an editor of the famous Westcott and Hort edition of the Greek New Testament. He had asked her, using three different tenses of the Greek verb: "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?" And then bishop Westcott, who was indeed saved and knew that he was saved, lovingly explained a little of the three tenses of the gospel to the young girl, and showed her something of the riches of her past salvation, her ongoing salvation, and her future salvation, from spirit to soul to body; and before they separated that earnest young girl knew more about the gospel and her Saviour than she had ever known before, and went away rejoicing that she had asked this tall stranger whether he was saved."
 
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