What about the Non-Observant Christians?

[AnthonyForChrist]

I have a question: if Torah-observant faith in Jesus is the only faith that God ever intended, the faith by which men are saved alone, then what about the mighty men of God He used in the past like Luther, Calvin or others, who didn't believe, or even argued against the necessity of Torah-observance? Are they condemned by the Torah that they refused as being essential to salvation? I know this sounds harsh, but I'm curious. If following Torah was necessary, yet God still used them, wouldn't that fact refute the claim that Torah observance is binding aside from the simplicity of salvation by faith in Christ alone, a doctrinal truth which God reclaimed from Rome through men like Luther, who fought grace + works = salvation?

 

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

I think the judgment seat, or the last judgment, will be the final say.

Perhaps, we should refine the definition, not as other people have grouped them: Muslims, Jews and Christians; but more so Arabs, Jews and Gentiles.

I have thought before about what you wrote about. The reading of the history of christianity, creeds and doctrines molded the above theologians into who they were and what they taught.

This all started in mid and late 2nd centuries as the christian/gentile church fathers moved further and further away from the original Yeshua and his teachings.

I know I didn´t answer your question but with alot of hesitation this is my answer for now.

Shalom, David.

 

[yod]

It was messianic jews who first said that the Torah isn't binding on the gentiles in Acts 15.

Most messianic theologians still hold that view, btw....


But we've been fighting amongst ourselves over that decision ever since James uttered it because it's always a good idea to understand the foundation of the New Testament.


Where there are 3 messianics there are 5 opinions.

 

[visionary]

It is the turning and repenting that God loves...God will not judge a person for how far off they are, but in their walk whether it is in the right direction, which is towards Him. While they were yet a far off, He opens up His arms towards the prodical son. Now those who understand and know more truth, and yet refuse to follow is a issue that God will discuss with them on judgement day. That is not for us to say.

 

[Bruce101]

If you are speaking to the issue of salvation, I believe that most would agree that salvation is through faith in Yeshua. period
However, in Torah we find a lifestyle that is perfectly in God's will. Many live a good part of it in their daily walk and don't realize it. That is the power and enabling of God's Holy Spirit.

Bruce

 

[insaneinthebrain]

Well, you can always refer to what the Messiah himself said in Matthew 5:19:

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

According to the part I bolded, it seems that there is a sort of punishment, but they aren't necessarily cast out of the Kingdom.

 

[Sephania]

Shalom Anthony,

I have a question: if Torah-observant faith in Jesus is the only faith that God ever intended, the faith by which men are saved alone, then what about the mighty men of God He used in the past like Luther, Calvin or others, who didn't believe, or even argued against the necessity of Torah-observance? Are they condemned by the Torah that they refused as being essential to salvation? I know this sounds harsh, but I'm curious. If following Torah was necessary, yet God still used them, wouldn't that fact refute the claim that Torah observance is binding aside from the simplicity of salvation by faith in Christ alone, a doctrinal truth which God reclaimed from Rome through men like Luther, who fought grace + works = salvation?

In that vein I would remind you of Pharaoh, Nebuchanezzar, and others who were used by G-d even though they were not in any means obedient to him.

Also may I remind you of the passage from Matt 7, Lord, Lord, have we not.......................I never knew you.

Remember the reason for those you mentioned ( at least I know of Luther) that took their stance against Torah because they hated Jews and the laws and the holy days "of the Jews", they didn't see them as of G-d himself and thus gave the glory to man instead of G-d . How do you think G-d will view that? Will all their "good works" invalidate the curse G-d put on mankind when he made the convenant with Abraham?

They may make it into the kingdom, but may be far away from the Jewish King.

 

[Sephania]

Also in Christian circles these verses seem to be held as elite to Christians only.

The first shall be last and the last first

The greatest shall be least in the kingdom and the least shall be greatest.

But I believe that the last and least are the Jews who are "saved in the end", and this will cause many to then understand the meaning of the parable about the owner of the vineyard ( Matt20).

 

[Sephania]

It was messianic jews who first said that the Torah isn't binding on the gentiles in Acts 15.

Most messianic theologians still hold that view, btw....


But we've been fighting amongst ourselves over that decision ever since James uttered it because it's always a good idea to understand the foundation of the New Testament.


Where there are 3 messianics there are 5 opinions.

That is some huge stretch of what was said. Please show me where it says that for gentiles the Torah of G-d is not binding. Remember that I said, Torah of G-d, the written Torah, which is NEVER , NEVER a burden. Ever. Ask King David.

 

[visionary]

I have a question: if Torah-observant faith in Jesus is the only faith that God ever intended, the faith by which men are saved alone, then what about the mighty men of God He used in the past like Luther, Calvin or others, who didn't believe, or even argued against the necessity of Torah-observance? Are they condemned by the Torah that they refused as being essential to salvation? I know this sounds harsh, but I'm curious. If following Torah was necessary, yet God still used them, wouldn't that fact refute the claim that Torah observance is binding aside from the simplicity of salvation by faith in Christ alone, a doctrinal truth which God reclaimed from Rome through men like Luther, who fought grace + works = salvation?

Let's take a look at this men who were inspiried by God to step out of darkness into the light that God had shone upon them. Was it all the light? How far out of darkness did they come? Even a dim light in total darkness looks bright. How much brightness can the darkened mind stand? Prodical sons are heading in the right direction, and our Heavenly Father welcomes them.

God gave them as much as they could bear. The light that they brought forth is not new light, just brought forth. Justification by faith, which Luther is so famous for, came from the light of Abraham who left for the promised land by faith and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Paul inspired wrote those Words that inspired Luther to get up off his knees from the indulgence he was performing and walk down the steps in faith to a new life in Christ. For many people were brought closer into a truer relationship with God than before, because of these great men.

Are those great men of faith like those you have mentioned going to be one of the twenty-four elders? Will they be able to judge angels by the very Laws of God righteously? I am sure they will be happy as we will be just to be there in heaven. All our shame will be that we did not draw closer to God to know Him even better than we do now. I believe that the more you come closer to God and His ways the more that this world will turn against you. I believe that the more closer to God you get the more you see the contrast between this world and the world that God lives in. We are totally unworthy of even the opportunity to live with God.



Are we to stop where the men of old did, where the churches organized themselves, and see no more inspirations? Are we not to go back to that apostalic faith that Yeshua inspired His disciples to follow? Are we not to see all the prophets of God as people of God not matter what generation? Are we not to see God as the same today and He was in the beginning, on Mount Sinai, walking the earth and dying on the cross? Is it not His laws for His Kingdom that we are to learn? Is it not His world that is to come? Is it not Him whom we should obey and not the multitudes?

 

[yod]

I know I've shown you this at least 3 times...but I'll do it again because I like ya


Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

to which Kefa replies;

8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?



Obviously, Kefa is not talking about circumcision here....that isn't any kind of "yoke" that is impossible for them or their fathers to bear.

Dan Juster explains it in much more depth at the Tikkun website

http://www.tikkunministries.org/articles/jack-whichlaw.htm




and by the way.....I don't think of Luther as a great man. His writings regarding the jews were the basis for the Inquisitions and the Third Reich.

 

[Sephania]

I know I've shown you this at least 3 times...but I'll do it again because I like ya


Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

to which Kefa replies;

8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?



Obviously, Kefa is not talking about circumcision here....that isn't any kind of "yoke" that is impossible for them or their fathers to bear.

Dan Juster explains it in much more depth at the Tikkun website

http://www.tikkunministries.org/articles/jack-whichlaw.htm




and by the way.....I don't think of Luther as a great man. His writings regarding the jews were the basis for the Inquisitions and the Third Reich.

And I love you too!

But, You can show me over and over but I still won't see what you see. I know very well Acts 15, I have debated it with many for years.

Why I can't see what you see? is because you are seeing what you want to see and not what is there. You put your emphasis where you want it thus changing the meaning, to suit your standard of requirements, not HaShems.

I don't now nor will I in the future believe that there are two sets of laws for G-ds people. There is ONE G-D, ONE MESSAH, ONE FAITH, ONE WORD ONE HOPE, ONE KINGDOM, ONE LAW.

The laws never changed, the penaltys or payments for breaking them did, but not the laws themselves. For if that is so then G-d isn't really sovereign, nor Holy, for he would be wishy-washy, and change his mind and you could never be sure if what you were doing was right.

Heaven forbid he should change his laws demarcating physics, can you imagine what would happen then? What if gravity only worked for some people?


Now, I will ask you to read this again, with the proper emphasis.

5 But some of the sect of the Phariseeswho had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

They were stating THEIR LAW of Conversion!

I am sure you are familiar with all Yeshua's run-ins with this group? And what was he always contending with them? What was true law and what was the law or tradition of MEN.

The 'LAW OF MOSES' to them was BOTH the Written AND the ORAL! Yeshua did not see it that way, nor did his brother Ya'akov.

Also circumcising a man would be purposly inflicting pain by the cutting and the blood for the covenant would superceed that blood of Yeshua for the covenant would prove useless. His blood was indeed better. (That is not to say that when the gentiles became believers that when they had children that they would have a brit milah on the eighth day as per Torah. )

The circumcism of a convert was required by the law of man, the pharasses required this, but not HaShem, he did not required that for them ( new pagen converts) to become part of his kingdom. Just follow the laws as laid down by Yeshua on Mt Sinai and no worry about the laws pertaining to the priests, for now there was a permenant High Priest, forevermore!


Yes, the fruits of Martin Luther stink to High Heaven, literally still!

 

[Sephania]

Yup, the yoke that was impossible for anyone to bear is the yoke of fences, certainly you can't call G-ds law a yoke????????

 

[yod]

The atonement of the torah could only temporarily provide cover. It could never justify. Sanctification is achieved by good works but that can not justify us.

The "NEW" Covenant is a permanent atonement which also justifies so there is no longer any need for the sacrifices of Passover or Yom Kippur.

This IS a change in the Law and it is "new"

Now I'm going to cry because you didn't read my link.

 

[yod]

Yup, the yoke that was impossible for anyone to bear is the yoke of fences, certainly you can't call G-ds law a yoke????????

No, Kefa did...I'm only quoting the Bible.

 

[Sephania]

About that article? Don't cry unless you believe in only what the Rabbis said .

All I kept reading was "The Rabbi's said". Now what's wrong with this picture?

[font=Times, serif]

From this, the Rabbis concluded that there were three sets of people and two sets of law. The people groups are the Jews, Gentiles living among the Jews, and Gentiles living apart from Jews; There is Torah for the Jews and gerim, and the universal law for everyone else - with the universal law being a particular small subset of Jewish law.

I do not believe in the so called universal law.

Acts 15 gives us a record of what happened at that meeting in Jerusalem. The first verse sets the context for the Council and makes it plain that the question is really about what Gentiles must do in order to be saved

Exactly, a salvation issue, not behavior afterwards.

The halakhah James declares is that Gentiles are not obligated by other than the four points (abstinence from idolatry, blood, strangled things and sexual immorality) that form the common ground of the day for righteous gentiles (gerim, strangers or aliens) living within the Jewish community either in the Land itself or outside the Land, in the Diaspora. It has been argued by many that this position is simply a low starting point to allow table fellowship to take place, so that Gentile and Jewish believers could eat together and so share and learn more about their faith, the Torah and so gain in observance. But James doesn't say that his statement is just the beginning of the road to full observance, or express any expectation that Gentiles should be obligated to any further degree. Equally, he doesn't place any restriction upon the level to which Gentiles may choose to keep Torah on a voluntary basis as a part of their life within the mixed believing community.

James did no such thing, what is left out here is exaclty what gentiles always leave out the Moshe being read every Shabbat.

Gentiles can choose a "Level" of what THEY WANT?

Read carefully, Sha'ul's letter to the Galatians - addressed as it is to a mainly Gentile audience - tells us that Gentile believers should not seek to pick up or observe Jewish obligations as a means of salvation.

again a salvation issue, not what to do afterwards. If you are in a Jewish community ( a gentile in a Messianic community) then to be apart there are certain things you do, but if you choose to leave and associate with gentile belivers only you aren't required to continue.
OK


Yes, I see the distinction that they are making, but it is not in which laws, it is a matter of where you are, and where G-d has called you.

Yod, you said in another thread somewhere that you have never been a Christian but always Messianic. If you are Messianic you have bound yourself to the JEWS, and as such in that binding are called to celebrate (WITH THEM) not on your own, the Moedim. Eating Kosher with them, and identifying with them through the life cycle.

I certainly believe in separate callings and I believe that is what was going on in the 1st century. :Those coming to faith understood the Tree that they were grafted into, and its Jewsh Root. It did not make them Jewish and they shouldn't try to become Jewish (circumcism) but by joining themselves just as what happened to the foreigners from the Exodus who wanted to join themselves. You cannot be joined to something and constantly want to do the opposite. That is a house divided.


[/font]

 

[yod]

Yod, you said in another thread somewhere that you have never been a Christian but always Messianic.

I've always been messianic, yes, but I never said that I wasn't a christian.

If you are Messianic you have bound yourself to the JEWS, and as such in that binding are called to celebrate (WITH THEM) not on your own, the Moedim.

and do.

Eating Kosher with them, and identifying with them through the life cycle.

My wife (a bible-believing baptist) is more kosher than most jews I know.

But I always eat kosher around them unless they order for me. Then I eat what is set before me with a clean conscious.

The point of Rav Shauls teachings on this matter is that we are not to condemn another person over their diet whether they are jew or gentile.

If your conviction is to be a vegan then so be it...but to enforce that view as if it could make one righteous would be (biblically) wrong.

 

[Sephania]

No, Kefa did...I'm only quoting the Bible.

No, he did not, he did not say G-d's Torah was a yoke that no one could bear.

SH'aul says Stand firm and don't let yourselfs be tied up again to a yoke of slavery.

Is he referring to the Torah here too? The Law of G-d is a yoke of slavery?
Notice the word, 'AGAIN'.

A few verses before this he says:
Tell me you who want to be in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism, don't you hear what the Torah itself says?

THen he goes into the story of Abraham and Ishmael and Issac. One a child of faith in mans ways ( traditions) and the other a child of faith in G-ds way ( Torah - do as I tell you).

G-ds Torah is not a "System that results in the perverting of Torah" that system was the yoke Kefa spoke about, the traditions of men.

Yeshua spoke of the proper yoke, one that was the proper one.

25 It was at that time that Yeshua said, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you concealed these things from the sophisticated and educated and revealed them to ordinary folks. 26 Yes, Father, I thank you that it pleased you to do this. 27 "My Father has handed over everything to me. Indeed, no one fully knows the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son wishes to reveal him.

Who do you think were the sophisticated and educated here? ( pharasees) and the Ordinary folk? ( talmidim)

28 "Come to me, all of you who are struggling and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Why were they struggling? Because of the burdens the Pharasees had put on them regarding Torah.

Yeshua asks them to take his yoke, again a yoke, but he says learn from me, learn what? How to follow the Torah the way it was meant. He is gentle and humble and wiling to teach what can be followed not unnescessrily burden them so they feel they can't walk in G-ds ways.

His Yoke is easy,and burden light, yet there is a yoke.

I will let the definition from Strongs ( King James) define yoke as used in these very verses.

1. a yoke
   1. a yoke that is put on draught cattle
   2. metaph., used of any burden or bondage
      1. as that of slavery
      2. of troublesome laws imposed on one, esp. of the Mosaic law, hence the name is so transferred to the commands of Christ as to contrast them with the commands of the Pharisees which were a veritable 'yoke'; yet even Christ's commands must be submitted to, though easier to be kept
2. a balance, pair of scales

See that? troublesome laws of the Mosaic law regarding the commands of the Pharisees who bound the Oral with the written as one thus making it a burden.

 

[Sephania]

I am not forcing any view, but I will stand up against wrong interpretation.

And you can't be a Messianic Christian.

The point is you take the 4 rules of Acts 15 and say that is all you have to follow, but like I was saying to you before, if you aren't eating Kosher, all the time, you aren't even following them so you are misleading others by that statement.

 

[yod]

I am not forcing any view, but I will stand up against wrong interpretation.

And you can't be a Messianic Christian.

The point is you take the 4 rules of Acts 15 and say that is all you have to follow, but like I was saying to you before, if you aren't eating Kosher, all the time, you aren't even following them so you are misleading others by that statement.

I never said anything about "having" to follow torah at all....and I am a messianic/christian because those terms have the exact same entymology.

Only later definitions of men can change that.



The Law of the Spirit of Life has set me free from the law of the Spirit of death. Hallelujah!

Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua