What about the "Armageddon" and "Gog Magog" Wars in Revelation?

[mkgal1]

You have proven Armageddon is actually a real place in Israel.

No - the place is Megiddo which is in the valley of Jezreel (but the use of the word, "Armageddon" has symbolic meaning - as the quoted article states).

is there a place called megiddo in israel - Google Search:

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

History's final period will be one in which our faithfulness will be tried. The drama's last act's that Satan will wage war against God's army, the Christian Church.

To this end, he musters Gog and Magog, all of the enemies of God's people. Satan marshals the antichristian forces for a last onslaught. God's enemies come, equipped with weapons to take God's city, to overcome Christ's Church.

This last effort is futile against God, who sends down fire from heaven to destroy them, since God Godself is a fire. God will help her.

It will be Satan's end, for he'll be thrown into fire's lake, to join the Antichrist and the Pope. In this torment they'll remain. There'll be no more loosing and delivering. Satan will be bound at Jesus' return on the last day.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No - the place is Megiddo which is in the valley of Jezreel (but the use of the word, "Armageddon" has symbolic meaning - as the quoted article states).

Hello mkgal and thanks for bringing that up.
I have heard so much about "valleys" lately, that I am going to devote a special folder to it.

The only place in the entire NT the word vally/s is used in the Gospel of Luke! That is astounding to me.
[But then Luke and Revelation also go together like white on rice........]

5327. pharagx properly, strengthened from the base of 4008 or rather of 4486;
a gap or chasm, i.e. ravine (winter-torrent):--valley.

Luk 3:5
Every valley shall be filled
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough ways smooth;
=======================================================
Jeremiah 7:
31 “And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.
32 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,
but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room.

Jeremiah 19:
2 “And go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the Potsherd Gate; and proclaim there the words that I will tell you,
6 “therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

Jeremiah 31:40
“And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD.
It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Jeremiah 32:35
‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.'

Ezekiel 39:11
“It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel,
the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude.
Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog.

Ezekiel 39:15
“The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man's bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog.

Hosea 1:5
It shall come to pass in that day
That I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”

Joel 3:2
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
12 “Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the Valley of Decision!
For the Day of the LORD is near in the Valley of Decision.
18 And it will come to pass in that day
That the mountains shall drip with new wine, The hills shall flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD And water the Valley of Acacias.

Amos 1:5
I will also break the gate bar of Damascus, And cut off the inhabitant from the Valley of Aven,
And the one who holds the scepter from Beth Eden.
The people of Syria shall go captive to Kir,” Says the LORD.

Amos 6:14
“But, behold, I will raise up a nation against you, O house of Israel,” Says the LORD God of hosts;
“And they will afflict you from the entrance of Hamath To the Valley of the Arabah.”
=============================================================
Jeremiah 7:
32 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,
but the Valley of Slaughter;
for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room.
Jeremiah 19:
2 “And go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the Potsherd Gate; and proclaim there the words that I will tell you,
6 “therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,
but the Valley of Slaughter.
============================

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Titus' Siege of Jerusalem - Livius

On 14 April 70, during Passover, Titus laid siege to Jerusalem. To the northeast of the old city, on Mount Scopus, the legions XII Fulminata (a new addition from Syria) and XV Apollinaris shared a large camp; V Macedonica was camped at a short distance.
When X Fretensis arrived from Syria, it occupied the Mount of Olives, in front of the Temple.
The soldiers of this legion had a special incentive to fight: they had been defeated by the Zealots in 66, and wanted revenge.

The death rate among the besieged increased.
Soon, the Kidron valley and the Valley of Hinnom were filled with corpses.

One defector told Titus that their number was estimated at 115,880. Desperate people tried to leave Jerusalem.

 

[ewq1938]

Nor did that quoted article state such.

What the article *did* state was this:

"So Armageddon in Revelation is not about a great end time battle in our future. It was a sign to describe in apocalyptic language the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD."​

It remains wrong. Armageddon is a future battle, one that Christ fights at the second coming. Rev 19 is not about Ad70 for the very reasons I already listed.

 

[ewq1938]

No - the place is Megiddo which is in the valley of Jezreel

That's the same place as Armageddon and it's a literal place not symbolic.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Assuming I'm understanding your po

sition correctly, apparently you and I reason Zechariah 14:11 a bit differently then. I take that verse to mean exactly what it says, and that it will be the case forever at this point once this is initially fulfilled.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Jerusalem would be in the land of Israel, I would think. If Zechariah 14:11 is fulfilled first though, follwed by the events recorded in Ezekiel 38:19-20, it looks to me that that would contradict the following in Zechariah 14:11---and there shall be no more utter destruction.

If in Ezekiel 38:20---and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground---if that is not describing utter destruction, what is describing then?

So you are trying to tell me that the saints and the camp they dwell in which is protected by God shall be destroyed?

Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

Or are you saying God will destroy the saints in Jerusalem?

 

[ewq1938]

So you are trying to tell me that the saints and the camp they dwell in which is protected by God shall be destroyed?

Immortal saints can't be destroyed so your question makes no sense. Also, Rev 20 shows the rebel army being destroyed before they accomplish anything they intended on doing.

Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

Or are you saying God will destroy the saints in Jerusalem?

That's a strange question. Why would God do such a thing? It's not found in scripture.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Immortal saints can't be destroyed so your question makes no sense. Also, Rev 20 shows the rebel army being destroyed before they accomplish anything the intended on doing.



That's a strange question. Why would God do such a thing? It's not found in scripture.

Then Jerusalem and the saints in Jerusalem are secure just as the word of God says.

Zechariah 14:11 People will live there, and never again will there be an utter destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell securely.

Even after Gog and his vast army destroyed,the saints will still live in Jerusalem.It is not destroyed.

 

[ewq1938]

Then Jerusalem and the saints in Jerusalem are secure just as the word of God says.

Of course but no one has said otherwise.

Zechariah 14:11 People will live there, and never again will there be an utter destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell securely.

Even after Gog and his vast army destroyed,the saints will still live in Jerusalem.It is not destroyed.

I think they live in their camp not in the city but yes, both are unharmed by Gog.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Of course but no one has said otherwise.




I think they live in their camp not in the city but yes, both are unharmed by Gog.

The person i quoted seems to think Jerusalem would be destroyed by Gog or God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Gog and Magog of Ezekiel and Revelation are talking about the same event. The reason why some people believe they are two separate events for the same reason either
Satan was bound at the cross, or he is bound sometime in the future, it cannot be both because there is no prophesy of a double binding and loosing or a double millennial period,

Numbers 22:18

• "And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more."

Likewise, though I would be praised to the rafters by Dispensationalists if I gave credence to their nonsensical prophesies, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to declare less or more than what is written about Gog and Magog.

Good post.
Those 2 are mentioned in Revelation 2............... the Assembly of Pergamos.

Revelation 2:
12 "To the angel of the assembly in Pergamum write:
"He who has the sharp two-edged sword says these things:
13 "I know your works and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. You hold firmly to my name, and didn't deny my faith in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to throw a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality

Num 24:10
Then Balak's anger was aroused against Balaam, and he struck his hands together; and Balak said to Balaam,
“I called you to curse my enemies and look, you have bountifully blessed them these three times!

Mic 6:5 O My people, remember now what Balak king of Moab counseled,
And what Balaam the son of Beor answered him,
From Acacia Grove[fn] to Gilgal,
That you may know the righteousness of the LORD.”
===================================
Revelation 2:12-17, The Church at Pergamos: Married…for Worse.

Pergamous was famous for several things. Among them were the magnificent temples of Zeus, Athena, Apollo and Aesculapius, who was the god of healing. His symbol was the caduceus, entwined serpents of a staff of wood, the symbol of medicine to this day. His temple was a sort of Lourdes of its day and people came from all over to be healed. Pergamos was also the birthplace of Galen, who is second only to Hippocrates in medical history. His voluminous, if somewhat inaccurate, writings were authoritative into the Dark Ages.

In addition, Pergamos was noted for the invention of parchment, probably as a result of the impressive library which was there, which rivaled the one in Alexandria, Egypt. It also enjoyed the distinction of having the very first temple dedicated to emperor worship, built for Augustus in 29 BC. There were many others built in other cities, and even others in this city, but Pergamos had the first one. It was, therefore, sort of a “cathedral city” for emperor worship. Moreover, it was the center of Roman provincial government.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Likewise, though I would be praised to the rafters by Dispensationalists if I gave credence to their nonsensical prophesies, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to declare less or more than what is written about Gog and Magog.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's interesting that this Millennial reign encompasses around the same length of time as a single preflood lifetime. The whole process is like a progressive, and segmented undoing of the ages. A mirrored reversal with subtle differences. Instead of water dividing an age we have fire.

Jesus mentions the days of Noah in the Jerusalem/Temple discourse:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:37
For even as the days of the Noah,
thus also shall be being the parousia of the Son of the Man

Luke 17:26
And according as it became in the days of Noah
thus it shall be also in the days of the Son of the Man.

Genesis 7:24
And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

Same amount of time

Revelation 9:5
And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months
And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion, whenever it should be striking a man;
===========
Matthew and Mark mentions the Lord shortening the days the final Wrath on Jerusalem:

Matthew 24
22 And if those days were not shortened<2856> no flesh would have been saved;
but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened<2856>
Mark 13
20 and if the Lord did not shorten<2856> the days, no flesh had been saved; but because of the chosen, whom He did choose to Himself, He did shorten<2856> the days.
=====================================
According to Josephus, the siege lasted approx 5 months. Even Amills would have to see the stark similarities with the amount of time the flood covered the earth and the 6 months in Revelation 9:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.

Revelation 9:6 And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

...............This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

Revelation 9:5
And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months

===============================
................................

................................

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well, here's my "crack" at the subject and some "interesting coincidences" I've found in the Bible. Anybody who wants more details - I got lots of them!

1000 years:
Day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as a day. 2 Pete 3:8

1000 years in Revelation is in the plural. From what I can gather, it looks like a plural of 1000 each, which would be 2000. 2000 years from the crucifixion brings us to 2033 AD.

Time, Times and 1/2 Time:
If "time" = 1000, "times" = 2000 and "1/2" = 500. This is 3500 years. There are 3500 years between Moses "burning bush" incident and 2033 AD.

We have:
500 years from Abraham to Moses.
1500 years from Moses to Christ
1500 years from Christ to the Protestant Reformation
500 years from the Reformation to 2033 AD

Does this mean anything or is it just "interesting coincidences"

The "battle of Armageddon" precedes the "millennial reign".
"Gog and Maygog" are at the point Satan is loosed to deceive the nations once again.

When did the "millennial reign" start?
Ephesians 1:19-22 says Christ began to reign at the resurrection.

Atonement and Prophecy:

Now I'm giving you fair warning here - it's not likely you have ever heard this explanation any place else; but it has totally come out of comparing Bible verses to each other.

Genesis 2:7
Exodus 12
Pslam 104:29
Jeremiah 25:15-16
Jeremiah 30
Daniel 9:27
Jonah 2:2
Matthew 24:6-13
Matthew 24:22&29, Mark 13:20&24
Luke 13:32
Luke 22:43
Luke 23:45
John 12:1-3
John 12:29&31
John 18:1&6
Revelation 20:1-3

John 12:1-3 - Mary (Lazarus's sister) anoints Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". Jesus says to Judas: "Leave her alone, against the day of my burial she has kept this." That "time clue" is important; keep it in the back of your head!

Daniel 9:27 "confirm the covenant for a week".
From the time Mary anoints Jesus's feet to the day of the crucifixion is "one week". This happens Thursday after sundown (which would have commenced Friday. This is the start of "the great tribulation".

Friday - I don't think the Scriptures tell us specifically what Jesus did Friday day. (Probably preached in the temple.)

Saturday - Sabbath.

Sunday - Triumphant entry into Jerusalem.

Monday - Preached in the temple. Jesus tells a pharisee who comes to Him to warn Him that Herod wants to kill Him. Jesus says "Tell that fox: Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." The "third day" is the commencement of Wednesday.

The word "perfected" here is kind of a weird word. It literally means "to come to the fullness of extension" and is usually used in context of conceiving children. We'd use the world "climax". So Jesus "comes to His climax" which in context of this verse he's referring to casting out devils, doing cures and preaching.

Again though, go back to Daniel 9:27. "the middle of the week" is "Messiah cut off".

Tuesday - Preaches in the temple. Leaves the temple Tuesday before sundown. Jesus and disciples are having a conversation about the temple being destroyed.

Thunder is heard (John 12:29). Jesus explains to them what that thunder is. (John 12:31) Satan has been cast out of heaven. (Revelation 20:1-3)

From here Jesus goes to Bethany to dinner at the house of Simon the leper. (Since we are after sundown - we are now into Wednesday) While He's eating an anonymous woman pours a jar of oil over His head. Again He tells the disciples: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 24:6-13)

This is the commencement of the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". We know this because exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later - Jesus is dead!

This is also the commencement of the "middle of the weeK" when the Messiah is cut off.

Wednesday - That night Jesus washes the disciples feet and spends much of the rest of the night explaining to them what will happen to Him.

Thursday - They prepare for the passover Thursday morning. Eat it in the upper room Thursday night. They leave the building and go to the "garden" near a brook Cedron; (John 18:1) which is in the Mt. of Olives but is not "Gethsemane".

This is the first attempt to arrest Jesus. A small band come and ask for Jesus. He says. "I am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6)
This is one of 4 places in the Scripture that speak of people "falling backwards" and in all those places, they are under the condemnation of God. This should tell you something about the modern "pentecostal" practice of "slain in the spirit". All the people in Scripture who "fell before God" went face down, not backwards. I digress here - but anyways.

They go from this garden to gethsemane. A "gethsemane" is not a garden. There were multiple "gethsemane(s)" in the Mt. of Olives. a gethsemane is where an olive press is. They were located inside caves and this is where they pressed the olives for the oil that burned the lamps in the temple. During feasts when lots of people were in Jerusalem, people would stay in these caves as shelter.

Passover:
So Jesus is in this cave and an angel comes to Him. (Luke 22:43) What angel is this? The passage in English says "....angel from heaven; strengthening him..." but the Greek actually means "display of force against". So, go back to Exodus 12. What angel passes through the land at midnight on the passover to kill the first born? (The angel of death.) So who is this angel who comes to Jesus? (It's the angel of death.) What does the angel of death do to Jesus.

Scripture explains to us that when organisms die, the "breath of life" returns to God. (Psalm 104:29) The breath of life is what makes men "living souls". (Genesis 2:7)

So the angel of death removes the breath of life from Jesus which confines His soul to Sheol. Jesus does not die though; why not? Because He has a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature.

This is the "shortening" of "the tribulation" because if "the tribulation is not shortened; no flesh would be saved"! (Matthew 24:22) When is "flesh saved". That has to do with the atonement!

What is "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". That is speaking of the wrath of God. "Out of the belly of hell you heard my cry." (Jonah 2:2)

Look at Jesus's behavior from the point He leaves the temple to the night of passover. He's extremely distressed. Why? Jeremiah 30 answers that question. This passage also talks about "Jacob's trouble" which is "the great tribulation". What is "Jacob" afraid of? (vs 10) He's afraid of failing God. He's afraid of losing what he came to accomplish. "Jacob" is not eternally lost though on account of Jacob's own righteousness. God being just though, can not rightfully condemn someone who is not a sinner. This is why Jesus's own personal integrity is so important to the atonement.

Jeremiah 25 talks about "the cup of God's wrath" causes the nations to "go mad". "Jacob" is probably also afraid of going insane and that is what will happen if God does not intervene. And this is why the angel of death confines Jesus's soul to hades. Jesus is determined to compete this course of action; but He can't do so if He's an emotional mess.

Now would the Romans have crucified someone they deemed to be insane? Probably not. Insanity in the ancient world was seen as "being touched by the gods".

Note Jesus's interactions with people from the point this angel leaves until Jesus dies. He remains morally and cognitively intact; but absolutely emotionless.

By the point of "Why have you forsaken me". "I thirst" and "It is finished" Jesus becomes more and more difficult to understand. Those who wrote the Scripture give us by interoperation from the Holy Spirit what Jesus said; but those who were present could not understand Him. The Greek denotes that His "cries" sound like the screeching of a crow. Obviously as His body breaks down; He's no longer able to produce intelligible speech.

Last thing says He bows His head and "gives up" or "sends off" His spirit. This is his human spirit, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, just as the Father had already forsaken Him. Jesus dies because the Divine nature is rent from the human nature. This is what actually kills him.

His soul is released from Sheol (as well as the souls of all those He's atoned for who died on the OT side of the cross). Soul and spirt ascend to heaven to stand before the Father as "the lamb that was slain". We see this in Revelation 5. Note who's there with Him. "those who've come out of great tribulation". They are "souls" (not bodies) who "live and reign with Him 1000 years". (Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4)

Jesus's body rests on the Sabbath.

Rises from the dead on Sunday before dawn. Ephesians 1:18-22 tell us that Christ begins to "reign" when He rises from the dead.

Now when does Jesus ascend back to the Father? (I.E. in bodily form as a whole person) That happens 40 days later.

Why does Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him? Other people touch Him later on (women included). He says to her that He still has to ascend to the Father; yet we have no other Scriptural evidence that suggests Jesus left the earth and went back to heaven in bodily form between Sunday resurrection and the ascension.

Matter of fact this word "ascend" Strong's # 305. Is only used once in the context of "ascend to heaven". Acts 2:34 talks about David has not "ascended" to heaven before "the Lord says to my Lord sit at my right hand...." When does Jesus "sit down at the right hand of God the Father". That one I'd have to research some more.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Matthew 24?

Matthew 24:29-31 talks about what happens "immediately after the tribulation". Sun darkened, moon does not give light - this happened from noon to 3 PM on the day of the crucifixion. The stars fall from heaven and the powers of heaven are shaken. This is probably a reference to not just the severance of the two natures; but in that process Jesus the man is forsaken by the rest of the Godhead; and because of what he/He was created as, this is why the powers of heaven are shaken.

The next verse: "They shall see the sign of the son of man in heaven…" This is something that entities in heaven are looking down upon. Thus probably why the sun was darkened and the moon did not give it's light. The creatures on earth can not see into heaven, but the entities in heaven can see what's going on down on earth; and what they are looking at is the crucifixion. They are watching Jesus die is what's going on.

How do we know this is what it means by "sign of the son of man in heaven"? Jesus makes a reference speaking to the Pharisees about "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sigh, but the only sign given it will be the sign of the prophet Jonah; whereas Jonah was in the wale's belly 3 days and 3 nights, so shall the son of man be in the heart of the earth." Now we know when this happened. The 3 days and 3 nights started sundown teusday and ended when Jesus died Friday afternoon. So the only public display that occurred to this "wicked and adulterous generation" was the crucifixion.

The next part of this verse: "..then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This verse is not talking about the return of Christ to earth; it's talking about the ascension into heaven upon his death. The tribes of the earth that mourn are all the unregenerate souls who are in Sheol and see this happen. Once Jesus leaves Sheol all the redeemed on the old testament side of the cross go with him. They got their 'ticket to ride' - there they go! Revelation picks this up as: "a multitude that no man could number who came out of great tribulation." This is the "first resurrection over which the second death has no power". This first resurrection also includes those who come after, who live and die in the interim between Pentecost and judgement day.

Interestingly to note too is that these are "of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation". They aren't just Israelites from the old testament side of the cross. These are people from around the globe; which explaining how people can be redeemed based on the testimony of creation alone, without ever having heard Scripture, is the subject of a whole other Bible study.

So that's what all that means and it's all taking place from the perspective of what is witnessed in the spiritual realm in both directions; earthly souls looking up and heaven looking down.

 

[The Righterzpen]

"No man knows the day and hour":

This phrase shows up in three different passages:
Matthew 24:36,
Mark 13:32,
And in a bit of a different (yet related) context - Luke 12:46

Now most commentators assess that the meaning of this, is that no one knows the day and hour; as well as no one will ever know the day or hour. Is this true though?

One thing contextually we have to ask ourselves about this phrase and the passages it's contained in; is that Jesus states that he "doesn't know the day and hour". Now do we make the same assumption about Jesus never knowing the day and hour as we make about no one else knowing the day and hour? Contextually speaking; to say Jesus (God incarnate as now having ascended into heaven) will never know the day or the hour, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

So this brings up the next question. Is this phrase contextually linked to the time of it's speaking; seeing how Jesus (obviously) at some point will know the day and hour. This appears to be the case, seeing how the construct of the Greek verb "to know" in this verse, is in the "present indicative active" voice. The "indicative" is the only verb construct that can be tied to the time the speaker is speaking.

This also makes sense in the context of what Jesus says following this phrase. Because you (people I'm speaking to standing before me in the flesh) are not going to know the day and hour; be ready that it might come whenever.

Acts 1:6-7

This is the next verse concerning knowing "times and seasons". This statement is made by Jesus just before he ascends back into heaven post resurrection. He says "It's not for you to know times and seasons that the Father has put in place by His own authority."

Now in this phrase we see the "present indicative active" but also the "aorist infinitive active". "It is (present indicative active) not for you to know (aorist infinitive active) times and seasons that the Father has put in place by His own authority." Now the "it is" related to the "you" who Jesus is speaking to, is connected to the time he's speaking; but the "know" of times and seasons, is not connected to the time of speaking. So what this does grammatically, is it opens the door for the possibility that this knowledge will be obtained later by people who come after them.

Note too what Jesus is NOT saying in this particular interchange.

Jesus is not saying that he/He doesn't know "the day and the hour" at that point.

Remember this is post resurrection; after Jesus's soul and spirit had already ascended to heaven when he died. Although his body was still in the grave when his soul and spirit ascended into heaven; this does not mean these things were not revealed to him while in heaven. So, upon rising from the dead it seems apparent that he would have retained that knowledge.

So what knowledge had Jesus attained that he'd "come back with" in the flesh? I'm not sure, but my hypothesis would be - the rest of the revelation of the New Testament Scriptures. What ever information reveled in the remainder of the New Testament (which hadn't been written yet) is what Jesus "came back" with.

Now the next question becomes: given only the Scripture we have (Old and New Testaments) what can we learn about the end of time?

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10:

Now this passage makes a distinction between the children of light and the children of darkness. The children of light are able to "discern the times" and the children of darkness are not. The children of light will be prepared, for they know Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" and the children of darkness are not going to be prepared.

The next verse says:

For when they shall say peace and safety; than sudden destruction comes upon them as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape.

What does "peace and safety" mean and do we have any clues as to when they will say it?

"Peace" - in this verse means "when all essential parts are joined together in wholeness". It was most commonly used in Hebrew as both a greeting and departing blessing to people wishing them "completeness of health". It is a kin to "peace be upon you" or Arabic "salaam alaikum".

"Safety" - in this verse means "certainty" and "secure proof".

Now neither of these give us any clue as to context of when this is being said and what it means in the context of the end of time. The only thing we do know is that "when they shall say" means "to come to the conclusion of a conversation" and yet while this conversation is concluding, than sudden destruction comes upon them.

The next clue we have contextually is those of the "darkness" are "sleeping" and "getting drunk". Now I'll come back to "getting drunk" because other passages concerning "thief in the night" also talk about drunkenness. It's not a literal drunkenness per say though, it's a state of spiritual deception.

Psalm 4:

This is the only other place were "Peace" and "safety" show up in the Bible. The basic theme of this psalm is about trusting in God. "I will lay down in peace and sleep; for the Lord makes me dwell in safety."

Here is our contrast between trust in God "peace and safety" and self deceived "peace and safety". This is worthy of noting too, because we will see as we go through the rest of the passages that talk about "coming as a thief in the night"; the context is always about people claiming to know the truth. These "servants" all claim to belong to the same Lord.

The next most logical question is what does "as a thief in the night" look like? What are the children of the light discerning as the sign of the coming thief?

2 Peter 3:10: This passage gives us some more information. First off, it tells us "the Day of the Lord" (judgment day) also "comes as a thief in the night". Obviously with The Day, comes Jesus too. This verse though also defines "judgement day" as it describes the destruction of the cosmos.

So, is "the servant" prepared for judgement day?

Matthew 24:43-51, Luke 12

One thing the servant who isn't prepared is saying: "the Lord delays His coming". The remainder of the passages state that this wicked servant begins to "beat" the other servants (to wound them - metaphorically), to "eat" and "get drunk".

Now to "eat" in these passages means "to consume away"; such as rust consumes away a piece of metal. In both contexts the word implies a banquet that belongs to Christ - i.e. 'the table of the Lord'.

This same implication is also picked up by the next word portion of the phrase "to drink and be drunk". That particular word 'drunk' is only used in 4 places in the Bible.

Luke 12:45 - (Beat servants and drunk)

Ephesians 5:18 - (Don't be drunk with wine, this is 'debauchery') 'debauchery' - This is the construct of two words which literally mean 'not' & 'save'. It's only used 2 other places in the Bible.

Titus 1:6 - qualification of an elder 'to not be accused of riot'.

1 Peter 4:4- Describes a contrast between one who once engaged in 'the behavior of the nations' and since they no longer run in this 'riot / debauchery'; they are spoken evil of. Verse 1 of chapter 4 talks about 'Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh…' Although, this is not a reference to being crucified. This is a reference to suffering emotionally. 'in the flesh' (or in the human nature). (To be maligned, marginalized, gossiped about and seen as not important; or having anything worthy of contributing.) To understand that contextually, we'd have to go to Isaiah 53. I cover that passage in my What did He REALLY Look Like study. The rest of verse 1, tells those who are suffering in like manner, to 'arm yourself likewise with the same mind (of Christ)'.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 - (Peace and safety be drunk)

Revelation 17:2 - (Babylon mother of harlots made inhabitance of the earth drunk with the wine of her fornication.)

So if we string all these passages together; we get a better understanding of what the spiritual environment of the church in the end of time looks like. Now granted if you follow church history through the centuries, you will see this phenomena at work. (Those who claim to be servants of the Lord persecuting those who really are.) Even today, around the world there is a lot of physical persecution and literal murder taking place. As we move through this study though, we will start to see other elements that are specific to the end of time that weren't present in the past centuries. This has more to do with ideologies and doctrines as they relate to the first beast in Revelation 13.

Finally, in all of this we have an interesting verse that I'd be amiss if I did not point out:

Revelation 10:7 - "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Note: This mystery has been declared to his servants the prophets.

How is it declared? It is declared in the text of the Scripture!

Now, the seventh angel; what does the Bible tell us about the 7th angel? This angel is mentioned two other places in the Bible. Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 16:17. What is occurring in the verses surrounding the mention of this angel?

Revelation 11:

Note verse 15 "...great voices in heaven, saying: The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever."

"...the kingdoms of this world are become..." This is the completion of the gospel proclaimed into all the world. Now it is true that at the commencement of the proclamation of the gospel from Pentecost on; "the kingdoms of this world" will be conquered by the gospel. Yet in this verse here; that is now the "done deal". We know that is the case because of verse 18.

Verse 18 declares: "...thy wrath has come and the time of the dead that they should be judged..." The seventh angel sounds just prior to the final resurrection.

Revelation 16:

This passage is interesting because it's talking about "the battle of Armageddon" and a "great earthquake such as not since men were upon the earth". This appears to be the commencement of the destruction of the cosmos. Yet as we move through chapters 17, 18, 19 and 20; we see Satan is bound for 1000 years (Revelation 20:2) and as we'll see moving through this study; the millennial reign started with the resurrection.

So what does "armageddon" mean?

It's a composite of two Hebrew words meaning "mountain" and "gather". The implication of the Hebrew word is that they are gathering together as an army of conquest. Its root is translated most frequently as "cut"; and it's use portrays two variations: the prophets of Baal "cutting" themselves and a command in Deuteronomy not to "cut" yourselves for the dead.

Interestingly, there are some correlations in the New Testament. There were two earthquakes; one at the point Jesus died and a second upon the resurrection. Is this second earthquake and the "battle of Armageddon" explaining to us what's going on in the spiritual realm? The armies of God against the forces of darkness; as the ransomed who've died prior to the crucifixion are released from Sheol to ascend to the throne of God out of what's commonly called "the great tribulation".

 

[ewq1938]

1000 years in Revelation is in the plural. From what I can gather, it looks like a plural of 1000 each, which would be 2000. 2000 years from the crucifixion brings us to 2033 AD.

Ok, so when God says 1000 we can make it 2000?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Ok, so when God says 1000 we can make it 2000?

If you get on a website that has a Greek concordance that will give you word participle / tense / voice - grammatical notations like that; and look up "thousand" in the passages in Revelation and 2 Peter 3:8 actually; that talk about the "1000". If it's either "Satan bound 1000 years", "live and reign with Christ 1000 years", "1000 years is as a day" or "witnesses prophecy thousand two hundred and sixty days" All the words "thousand" in those contexts is a "thousand" in plural form.

Other places where "thousand" is used are not the same format. (Like 144 thousand).

Strong's # 5507 as opposed to Strong's # 5505
5505 is used for numbers like "144 thousand.". 5505 is from the root of 5507, which is a plural "thousand".

Now is it a "duel plural" "thousand" or a "multiple plural" "thousand". I don't the Greek well enough to determine that specifically. The reason I tend to lean toward "duel plural" (2000 years) because that fits with other Scripture (time, times and 1/2 time).

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Times and Seasons passages in New Testament:

Times Definition:
This term means not only a chronology of minutes or days, but more an "appointed time", a "proper season", a "time of opportunity". There are passages where this word is combined with "chronology" and therefore would seem to hold a stronger indication of a specific planned out time period God has appointed that event X, or events X,Y, and Z would occur in.

Seasons Definition:
Now this Greek word carries more the implication of a chronology of minutes or days, than a "time of opportunity". So again, combining "times and season" would seem to indicate that this "time of opportunity" is happening within this "chronology of minutes or days".

So what's interesting about all these passages is that if a "time" is roughly 1000 years and a "season" is specifically 1000 years; there is an amazing congruence of language here which certainly fits historically. Does this mean something, or is it just more "interesting coincidences"? I guess we'll know the answer come 2033 AD.

New Testament Passages:
I looked all these up individually. They are all in the plural also. It is "times" not "time". Which "time" grammatically in some of these passage would make more sense; yet it isn't written that way.

This list is not finished. I have to check more passages for noted plural "times" that seem to carry implication related to time frames.

Luke 21:24 "… Jerusalem trampled under foot until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled"

2000 years of opportunity for "the nations" to be redeemed. This is interesting when we get to Acts 17 - which I'll talk about when we get "down there".

Acts 1:7 "… the chronologies of times the Father put in His own power."

The days counted of opportunity the Father put in His own power. This appears to be Jesus's amendment to "no man knows the day or the hour". That phrase (Matthew 24); was spoken before the crucifixion and before Jesus's soul had ascended to heaven upon his death (while body "rested" in the tomb for the Sabbath).

After rising from the dead, Jesus is now saying "chronologies of times", not only in reference to being the King now reigning, but also in reference to the concept of the destruction of this current universe. I'm not sure the disciples understood, or realized when they'd originally asked Jesus about "the end of the age" that Jesus gave them two answers. There's the end of the Old Testament age and then there's THE END!

Acts 3:20, 21 "… times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord and He shall send Jesus Christ…" (vs 21) "…behooves heaven indeed to receive until the chronologies of restoration of all things which God by the mouth of holy the age (of) His prophets.

Verse 20 is talking about the return of Jesus upon the destruction of the cosmos. The "chronologies of restoration" are these increments of years that stretch all the way back to the beginning of time.

Acts 17:26 - “And He has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth and has determined the times before appointed and the boundaries of their habitation.” (vs 30) “And the chronologies of their ignorance God disregarded; but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

This is a reference specifically to Jew and gentile being made "one man in Christ"; because He has torn down the wall of separation between them. Ephesians 2:11-22

Now here is my challenge to the Dispensationalist. If back in the 1st century, Christ tore down the wall of separation between Jew and gentile in order to make them one man in Christ as we see Ephesians 2:11-22; explain why, come roughly 1870 years later would God rebuild that wall?

If Christ being the fulfillment of the law is the reason this wall is torn down; then rebuilding it would make no sense. Is Christ now suddenly not the fulfillment of the law starting in 1870 with the inception of Zionism?

1 Thes 5:1 - “For of the chronologies and the times… know the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

1 Tim 4:1 - “Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the end of the times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.”

Is Dispensationalism one of these "doctrines of devils"?

1 Tim 6:15 - “For in His times He will show …. King of kings and Lord of lords.”

2 Tim 3:1 - “This know also that in the last days shall come oppressive times.”

Titus 1:3 - “But has in these times, manifest His word through preaching…”

1 Pete 1:5-6 - “…ready to be revealed in the end (of) time.....wherein you greatly rejoice now for a season....."

In this verse "time" and "season" are singular. Does this verse mean upon the closing of "one time" and "one season"? I.E. 1000 years? Could this actually be a veiled time reference to the span from the Protestant Reformation to the end? (That I don't know. Or is it just another "interring coincidence". (See Historical Notes below).

Also in verse 1 Peter states he is addressing "the elect sojourners of the Diaspora". He names 5 places "Pontus" = name means "seas". "Galatia" = name means "milk"/"people of the hill". "Cappadocia" = word is of Persian origin, but I can not find the name meaning. "Asia" = name means "of the east". "Bithynia" = name means "place"/"people of affliction".

So, is what's buried in these names, references to people of particular predicaments across the globe who are "in the Diaspora"?

1 Pete 1:20 - “Who verily was foreordained (Christ) before the foundation of the world; but made manifest in these last times for you.”

Historical Notes:
Babylonian captivity ends 538 BC with Cyrus the Great’s decree.

Temple rebuilt - The 1st year of King Cyrus was 538 BC. This was the year the decree went out to rebuild the temple. The temple was completed in the 6th year of Darius. This was 516 BC. (Ezra 6:15)

Jerusalem Talmud beginning to be penned - believed to be about 200 AD. The Jerusalem Talmud is mostly the Mishnah, as well as some commentary of the Mishnah. (The commentary being called Gemara.)

Constantine decriminalizes Christianity 313 AD

Jerusalem Talmud left off in 325 when Constantine declared Jerusalem the “holy city of Christendom” and the rabbis fled to Babylon.

Babylonian Talmud completed 475 AD

Samaritan revolt 484 AD - The Samaritans (remaining mixed Greek Jewish heritage from Babylonian captivity) are wiped out by the Byzantine empire.

This is exactly 1000 years after the dedication of the temple in Jerusalem upon return from the Babylonian captivity. This can not be a coincidence!

“time, times and half a time”.

Time = The burning bush that appears to Moses to the end of the Babylonian captivity is 1000 years. The end of the Babylonian captivity to the end of the Samaritans is 1000 years. The end of the Samaritans to the Protestant Reformation is 1000 years. There are 1000 years between King David (first king God selected for Israel) and Jesus Christ. Just as Israel existed as a theocratic entity for 1000 years; so did the “Holy Roman Empire”.

Times = End of Babylonian captivity to the Protestant Reformation is 2000 years; but also, so is 33 AD to 2033 AD. There’s also 2000 years between Abraham and the crucifixion / resurrection.

Half a Time = There’s 1/2 time from Abraham to Moses. 1/2 time from Babylonian captivity to Jesus Christ. 1/2 time from Jesus to the establishment of the “Holy Roman Empire”. 1/2 time from the Protestant Reformation to 2033 AD.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, here's my "crack" at the subject and some "interesting coincidences" I've found in the Bible. Anybody who wants more details - I got lots of them!

1000 years:
Day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as a day. 2 Pete 3:8

1000 years in Revelation is in the plural. From what I can gather, it looks like a plural of 1000 each, which would be 2000. 2000 years from the crucifixion brings us to 2033 AD.

Time, Times and 1/2 Time:
If "time" = 1000, "times" = 2000 and "1/2" = 500. This is 3500 years. There are 3500 years between Moses "burning bush" incident and 2033 AD..................

ewq1938 said: ↑
Ok, so when God says 1000 we can make it 2000?

If you get on a website that has a Greek concordance that will give you word participle / tense / voice - grammatical notations like that; ................."thousand" in plural form.

You are correct. All forms of that word is in the Plural. Good catch!

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

G5507 (NKJV)
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
Plural of uncertain affinity

χίλια — 8x

• A-NPN (5x)
• A-APN (3x)

χιλίας — 2x
χιλίων — 1x

Rev 20:2
And he lays hold<2902> of the Dragon, the serpent, the ancient/original<744> who is being a Devil/accuser and the Satan/adversary
and binds him thousands<χίλια/cilia <5507> years

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online
adjective accusative plural

καὶ ἐκράτησεν τὸν δράκοντα1, ὁ ὄφις2 ὁ ἀρχαῖος3, ὅ ἐστιν διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς,
καὶ ἔδησεν αὐτὸν χίλια4 ἔτη,

kai ekrathsen ton drakonta ton ofin ton arcaion oV estin diaboloV kai satanaV
kai edhsen auton cilia eth

 

[ewq1938]

All the words "thousand" in those contexts is a "thousand" in plural form.

Being plural doesn't change it from a thousand to two thousand.