What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

[seventysevens]

Jesus wasn't predicting the future in that verse, in regards to men ascending to heaven. He was stating, that at that particular time in history when He said that, no man has ever ascended to heaven at this point.

But I do admit though, it does seem that Elijah was taken to heaven, yet I can't seem to square that with what Jesus said though.

Well if one considers Elijah went to heaven and went no further than the sky and fell out of the chariot and came back to earth , well we can consider in modern day that literally thousands of people ascend up into heaven and back to earth everyday at airports when they fly across the country - TWA = Transother Worlds Airline

 

[seventysevens]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus having come from heaven when He was initially born, would undoutedly know whether any man has ever ascended to heaven. Why would He say here that no man has if Elijah indeed has? Why would He contradict himself here by stating no man hath ascended up to heaven, if that is indeed where Elijah ascended to?

God took Elijah , Elijah did not leave on his own , just as God took Enoch

 

[seventysevens]

Exactly! And since the whirlwind story didn't specify which heaven it was that he was taken up to, we have to figure it out based on context and other clues found throughout scripture.

The fact that he was still sending letters five years later is a pretty big clue.

Consider the purpose and point of the scripture - Elisha had asked -

9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”

“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.

10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”

The power of being a prophet Only comes from God , a man cannot just choose to be a prophet and see the future without the gift coming from God

Elijah stated outright IF you see me when I am Taken---TAKEN - Taken to heaven - where else would God Take him , especially when the scripture makes it clear that is what they were expecting to happen

Because Elisha was present and seen Elijah Taken up into heaven - IS the reason why Elisha received what he asked for- Just as Elijah said - IF it did not happen Elisha would not receive it -- But Elisha DID SEE Elijah Taken therefore he did receive
It would not make sense that this would be fulfilled by God faking it and take Elijah up into the sky and dump him out of the chariot

Consider that in today's High Tech world where we have computerized mail systems and cars , trucks and Jets to carry the mail in a mail system that has scanning equipment designed to send the mail to it's correct destination still gets lost and delivered to the wrong people often enough that the saying " got lost in the mail "
is common and compared to the days of biblical times where they did not have a good mail system where it was common that letters would be a long time in delivery as they only had horses that can be intercepted and robbed easily , that mail may not be delivered at all or delayed long periods of time

to even suggest that God took Elijah up into the sky and dumped him somewhere is just ridiculous - we should say "got lost in the amil" system

 

[LastSeven]

seventy, you yourself said that there are three heavens. Why are so you insistent that this story refers to the third? I don't think it's because the scripture strongly supports it (it doesn't). I think it's because that's what you really want it to mean. Why is that?

 

[LastSeven]

to even suggest that God took Elijah up into the sky and dumped him somewhere is just ridiculous

More ridiculous than Elijah sending snail mail from the throne room of God down to earth?

 

[LastSeven]

Well if one considers Elijah went to heaven and went no further than the sky and fell out of the chariot and came back to earth , well we can consider in modern day that literally thousands of people ascend up into heaven and back to earth everyday at airports when they fly across the country - TWA = Transother Worlds Airline

Look at you. You think you're so clever, yet earlier you said yourself that the first heaven is our atmosphere where the birds fly. So what's so strange about people going up into that same heaven?

p.s. Elijah was never in the chariot.

 

[LastSeven]

John wrote things on some type of paper and he was in heaven and he brought that back with him. It's nothing for God to send people back and forth from heaven with something written...

John did not go to heaven. John saw a vision while he was on the island of Patmos.

 

[LastSeven]

The two witnesses are the Law and the Prophets. In other words, THE BIBLE!

Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the two witnesses are truth and love. Or truth and righteousness, both of which are dying before our very eyes.

 

[seventysevens]

seventy, you yourself said that there are three heavens. Why are so you insistent that this story refers to the third? I don't think it's because the scripture strongly supports it (it doesn't). I think it's because that's what you really want it to mean. Why is that?

The mention of the three heavens only came in the NT and not mentioned in the OT
When scripture says that a Godly person is taken - it means they are taken into heaven where the Almighty God is
Mtt 15
15 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast

Mark 2
19 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.

Acts 1
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Gen 5
24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Hebr 11
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

ALL of these mean taken to heaven where the LORD GOD IS !

When scripture says that the ungodly are taken , they are killed and go the other place -as in outer darkness - eternally separated from God for eternity

It be important to understand what is the point of saying that Elijah would be taken to heaven if it was not where God is ?
What possible reason would there be to take Elijah up into the sky then let him fall to earth ? In all reality it would in fact kill Elijah if that happened .
That would indicate that God was not pleased with Elijah to take him up in the sky and let him drop to earth that would kill him

It is totally illogical and irrational to suppose that God sent a Whirlwind to take Elijah to heaven only for him to drop from the heights of the sky back to earth -
The bible does not tell us of any other person that went to heaven and sent a letter from heaven down to earth - there is no scripture that even mentions Elijah being on earth after he was taken

2 Kings 2
When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.
3 The company of the prophets at Bethel came out to Elisha and asked, “Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today?”

Scripture makes it crystal clear that the LORD was going to take Elijah to heaven - to the heaven where the LORD is - very clear indeed

You need to accept the entire chapter in order to see that this is the process of Elijah passing the power (like a baton) to his successor Elisha

When we compare the evidence of Elijah going to heaven - compared to the one verse that says a letter by Elijah was delivered , and no mention of anything else in all of scripture that even remotely suggests that Elijah was still on earth - the evidence is overwhelming that Elijah was not ever on earth after he was taken

2king2
13 Elisha then picked up Elijah’s cloak that had fallen from him and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.
14 He took the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and struck the water with it. “Where now is the Lord, the God of Elijah?” he asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over.

15 The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, “The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.” And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Who/what are the 2 witnesses symbolizing in Reve 11.
The powers they have are similar to those of Moses and Elijah, whom appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. Discuss........

I checked "other".

Moses died and Satan disputed with the archangel Michael over his body.

If you can receive it (and I can) John the Baptist was Elijah and John was beheaded and died.

I wouldn't be dogmatic about it. But I vote for the O.T. saint Enoch who was taken to Heaven without dying with no record of return and John the Apostle who was also taken up into Heaven without dying with no record of return.

Whether they would inhabit new bodies the second time around as did Elijah or return in the same bodies to preach would be up to the Lord. Obviously He could do it either way.

An interesting passage to note (doesn't prove anything of course) is John 23:22-24.

"Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?” This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true."

 

[seventysevens]

John the Apostle who was also taken up into Heaven without dying with no record of return.

What scripture is that please ?

 

[Davy]

I believe the two witnesses are two literal flesh born men. Can't include Moses because he actually did die, and God buried his flesh body. I don't believe it will be Elijah either, because even though he did not die, his appearing on the mount of transfiguration with Moses reveals his flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly type of body, a body of incorruption that man cannot kill. The two witnesses have to be two men in the flesh which the beast can kill with their flesh bodies laying in the plaza at Jerusalem for three and half days.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What scripture is that please ?

Revelation 4:1-2 and you can take "immediately I was in the Spirit" any way you wish.

 

[seventysevens]

John the Apostle who was also taken up into Heaven without dying with no record of return.

How did people get the book of Revelation that John wrote if he did not return ?

There is record of John being released from Patmos , but there is some uncertainty on how he died as there are a few theories that stem from the time of the first century

 

[Marvin Knox]

How did people get the book of Revelation that John wrote if he did not return ?

There is record of John being released from Patmos , but there is some uncertainty on how he died as there are a few theories that stem from the time of the first century

Perhaps the same way they got manna from Heaven without someone baking it here on earth and presenting it to them with hands.

Please notice that I clearly said in my original post that I could and would not be dogmatic about what is obviously only a possibility as to who the two witnesses will be.

I suppose one of them could even be Jimmy Hoffa returned from Heaven.

Heck - they could even be you and me.

By the way - any records we have of John being released from Patmos are dubious even if it turns out to be so.

 

[seventysevens]

I suppose one of them could even be Jimmy Hoffa returned from Heaven.

--thx, you really put some thought into this

 

[Marvin Knox]

....I like J.M.V.....
Him and C.B. were awesome together in the original "The Mechanic" movie.

Big Airwolf fan here.

Wouldn't it be something if Jan-Michael Vincent got saved and turns out to be one of the two witnesses to God's grace in Revelation 11?

 

[LastSeven]

The mention of the three heavens only came in the NT and not mentioned in the OT

So what? Does that mean the atmosphere didn't exist in the OT? What are you trying to say?

 

[Stringfellow_Hawke]

Wouldn't it be something if Jan-Michael Vincent got saved and turns out to be one of the two witnesses to God's grace in Revelation 11?

It would be great to see the man get saved period

 

[Marvin Knox]

It would be great to see the man get saved period

I can't speak for everyone. But it seems to me, the older I get, that we have all fallen short of what we could have been or what we had hoped in our youth that we would eventually be.

If it were not for the grace of God Who saved me - I would likely go into eternity grieving over what could have been - "if only".

But, thank God, He will wipe away every tear and all things will become new very soon.

I suppose we should pray for everyone we would like to see saved.

But, since we're on the subject of this particular person, I pray for his salvation and that one day the Lord will wipe away all of his tears as well.