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Featured What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. Moses and Elijah

    11.1%
  2. Enoch and Elijah

    22.2%
  3. They are 2 groups of people

    8.3%
  4. They are a group of people

    8.3%
  5. I am not sure, but am willing to learn

    13.9%
  6. Other

    36.1%
  1. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    You did not say why and what relevance there is , priests such as the High Priest often were in the sanctuary throughout history, often they were the only ones permitted in certain areas of the sanctuary

    In OT times only a High Priest was allowed , as they would make intercession for prayers of common man unto God because common man did not have access /permission from God to contact God directly as they had to go through a High Priest - This is where the practice that Catholicism came from where people will take confession through a priest - the very practice that Jesus said not to do anymore as telling them not to call any man Father as we have only one father who is in Heaven; we now have access to God directly through Jesus , by asking anything In Jesus Name
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I understand.....but it can be done in a more respectful way.
    Ever since I saw the Sanctuary, Golden Altar being measured.

    Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

    The Court outside the Sanctuary would contain the Water Laver and Altar of Sacrifice, [which doesn't appear to show in Revelation]. it made me look at Revelation in a whole new light.......the OC Priesthood and NC Priesthood......
    Now perhaps that will give me a better idea of what the 2 witnesses are symbolizing......

    The court of the OC High Priesthood cast out.........

    the Court<833>
    be casting-out<1544>!

    Strong's Number G833 matches the Greek αὐλή (aulē), which occurs 12 times in 12 verses
    ["......and them that worship therein"
    now we are getting an idea who John is to measure in the Sanctuary...the Priesthood]
    1st time used:

    Matthew 26:3
    Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the Court<833> of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

    John 18:15
    And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest,
    and went in with Jesus into the Court<833> of the high priest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Post 8 explains who and what the two witnesses are. One witness are two prophets, the other witness are two churches.

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...witnesses-revelatin-11.8074099/#post-72967099
     
  4. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    That's actually not true. Elijah sent a letter to King Jeroham, five years after the whirlwind. He was therefore still alive.

    2 Chronicles 21:12-15
    Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

    “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”


    The "heaven" he ascended into was the atmosphere above the earth.
     
  5. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    How did he convince you?
     
  6. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Soooooooo Elijah "returned" to earth AFTER he was taken up by God in a fiery chariot?

    Do tell.

    Please, continue.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, he went to the actual heaven, and sending a letter is an easy thing to do so that doesn't disprove or prove anything.
     
  8. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Based on what proof did you get the idea that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jeroham five years after he was taken into a whirlwind?
     
  9. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    I already told you. The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

    Elijah did not "return" to earth. He never left earth. Obviously the "heaven" Elijah went up into was not the third heaven, or he would not have been able to write the letter five years later. The logic is pretty simple. Not sure what part you're having trouble with.
     
  10. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    This is most intriguing. Sooooooo Elijah was flyin' around up there in a fiery chariot, and then came down for a "landing"? Where?

    Tell me more.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    the bible says he went to heaven and that's leaving the Earth. Moses returned so why couldn't Elijah? It is very simple if we just take what the bible says.
     
  12. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Alright. Here it is.

    First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.

    Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.

    Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.

    11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”

    Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind.

    2 Kings 2:13
    Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

    So based on the first three chapters of 2 Kings, we know that Elijah experienced the whirlwind during the early reign of Joram.

    Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.

    2 Kings 8:16
    In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

    Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.

    2 Chronicles 21:4
    When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.

    2 Chronicles 21:12-15
    Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

    “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”


    The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

    Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.
     
  13. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    I am taking what the Bible says, but you have to understand that there's more than one heaven. The first heaven is the atmosphere in which the birds fly. That's also the same heaven where tornadoes exist. Coincidence?
     
  14. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That isn't what it's talking about. He was taken to the 3rd heaven. There is no point to take someone to the first heaven. God was removing Elijah from the world to take him to heaven. Paul spoke of the same thing happening to someone he knew.
     
  15. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Even though Elisha told his people not to go look for Elijah as they would not find him , they did anyway and did not find Elijah and there is no more evidence in the bible that he was ever found - how easily you are mislead
     
  16. TribulationSigns

    TribulationSigns Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you, I will check with my Bible and may get back with you soon, Lord willing.

    In a meanwhile, I looked up on youtube that echoes your position:

     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    Do you think they were merely taken to the clouds or did they go to the actual heaven?
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Very interesting......It seems heaven and sky can be interchangeable? Click on the hebrew word #8064

    Genesis 1:1 (NASB)
    NASB with lexion:

    Zephaniah 1:3
    “I will remove H5486 man H120 and beast; H929
    I will remove H5486 the birds H5775 of the sky H8064
    And the fish H1709 of the sea, H3220
    And the H4384 along H854 with the wicked; H7563
    And I will cut H3772 off H3772 man H120 from the face H6440 of the H127 declares H5002 the LORD. H3068

    Joel 2:30
    “I will display H5414 wonders H4159 in the sky H8064 and on the earth, H776
    Blood, H1818 fire H784 and columns H8490 of smoke. H6227

    Josephus tells of some rather bizarre events happening before the destruction of Jerusalem pre-70ad:

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    [6] - Josephus has collected the chief of these portents together, and introduces his account by a reflection on the strangeness of that infatuation, which could induce his countrymen to give credit to impostors, and unfounded reports, whilst they disregarded the divine admonitions, confirmed, as he asserts they Were, by the following extraordinary signs :

    1. "A meteor, resembling a sword, [7] hung over Jerusalem during one whole year." This could not be a comet, for it was stationary, and was visible for twelve successive months. A sword too, though a fit emblem for destruction, but ill represents a comet.
    2. "On the eighth of the month Zanthicus, (before the feast of unleavened bread) at the ninth hour of the night, there shone round about the altar, and the circumjacent buildings of the temple, a light equal to the brightness of the day, which continued for the space of half an hour.".
    3. "As the High Priest were leading a heifer to the altar to be sacrificed, she brought forth a lamb, in the midst of the temple." Such is the strange account given by the historian. Some may regard it as a "Grecian fable," while others may think that they discern in this prodigy a miraculous rebuke of Jewish infidelity and impiety, for rejecting the ANTITYPICAL Lamb, who had offered Up Himself as an atonement, "
    4. "' About the sixth hour of the night, the eastern gate of the temple was seen to open without human assistance." When the guards informed the Curator of this event, he sent men to assist them in shutting it, who with great difficulty succeeded..........
    5. "Soon after the feast of the Passover, in various parts of the country, before the Setting of the sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem. ".................
    6. "At the subsequent feast of Pentecost, while the priests were going, by night, into the inner, temple to perform their customary ministrations, they first felt, as they said, a shaking, accompanied by an indistinct murmuring, and afterwards voices as of a multitude, saying, in a distinct and earnest manner, "LET US DEPART HENCE."
    7. As the last and most fearful omen, Josephus relates that one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a rustic of the lower class, during the Feast of Tabernacles, suddenly exclaimed in the temple, "A voice from the east a voice from the west -- a voice from the four winds- a voice against Jerusalem and the temple -- a voice against bridegrooms and brides -- a voice against the whole people !"
    These words he incessantly proclaimed aloud both day and night, through all the streets of Jerusalem, for seven years and five months together,
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  19. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    There are 3 heavens a brief overview

    1 Sky where birds and clouds are

    2 Firmament area where stratosphere, ionosphere where it is ,

    3rd heaven where the Throne of Almighty God is
     
  20. Mal'ak

    Mal'ak New Member

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    Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


    Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    What we know is that they are Christians, when they are done what they were called to do the "beast" will come to make war against them. This is seen twice in Revelations with this "make war"; when satan is kicked out of Heaven to attacking those that "have the testimony of Jesus Christ", also when the beast comes from the pit and makes war with the "two Witnesses". So is there any mention of "two" Christians or groups that will be named in the end times, and what will they be doing?

    Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
    Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
    Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


    Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
    Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
    Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


    In the Churches, we learn that two of the Churches are pleasing to God and will receive the "crown of life". Smyrna is specifically said will be put in "prison" and "tribulation ten days". So not speaking of now, but speaking of a specific "ten days" where satan himself will be "making war" on them. There is Philadelphia which seems to be a...better...group of Christians, that they are pleasing to the point that God will "keep thee from the hour of temptation". So again, "the hour of temptation", so another references to the tribulation at the end times. But it shows they are not home clear, as verse 11 says "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown". It can be seen here that they wont be raptured away or totally protected, that by acting against God some how during the tribulation they can still make themselves a target to satan and lose their "crown".

    "Keep"- Original Greek: τηρήσω tay-RAY-soh, Definition: to guard

    Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


    Before the tribulation, the chosen of God will be "sealed on their foreheads", it is not literal. But it shows us that some Christians will be "guarded". As we learn from the greek meaning of "keep thee from the hour of temptation", it is not the well used versed of the rapture to say they will fly away, but just that they will be guarded. So how can these Christians who are guarded by God find themselves attacked by satan, if they are the second "witness"?

    Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


    What we learn from Jesus himself is to run to the desert, hide, avoid the world until his coming. If you stick around near people and the events of the end, there is a chance that some will "deliver you up" because people will "betray one another". We see this enough today, never mind when all this spiritual stuff will be going on. One Christian religion is always calling another "evil" or "heretic" to the point of having another Christian burned at the stake or just publicly shamed, the same will happen to the "Christians" that fall to the lies of the anti-Christ thinking that they are serving God and everyone else are evil, and that is when they will say to the church leaders or the demons '...you should look for Tom, he was always talking about satan coming first and deceiving people'. Then the demons come drag you off, those that are dragged off will become the two Witnesses while the rest of the Christians are guarded because they hid themselves away or were not pointed out.

    SECOND WITNESS:

    Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


    Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
    Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
    Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
    Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
    Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


    Jesus in Matthew Chapter 24, spoke specifically of the visions of Daniel to speak of the prophecy for the end times (Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)) The amazing thing to me, is that the more important information about the two witnesses is not even in the New Testament. Daniel 7 makes the reference to connect the dots between Revelations with the "made war with the saints, and prevailed against them", which is exact wording of Revelations Chapters 11 and 12. But the most interesting is the more literal explaining of what Daniel saw, compared to the spiritual figurative language of John in Revelations. It is not that the Christians will be killed, but satan will speak "great words against the most High, and wear out the saints" and then "now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries...and some of them of understand shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white"!!! Amazing! We are told they will "fall" to "purge them and make them white", we are given a reason why some of the two groups of Christians will not be guarded and allowed to be handed over to satan. Also shows them as the two witness, since we are told "They that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword".
     
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