What a long strange trip it's been.

TLK Valentine

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When will you show it's possible. You can't. i understand that.

Clearly you don't understand, otherwise you'd realize that you've already shown it to be possible. Your entire worldview hinges on it being possible.

Bottom line...fossils were found and lined up in a form of apparent evolutionism.

Chronological order... ain't it great?
 
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PsychoSarah

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When you can show me how mutations can add up and form new and novel traits....such as the dolphins echo-location system.....Get back to me.
A couple recent human mutations:

Negative one: a genetic disease that causes people to lose the ability to sleep when they approach their 30s and 40s. Can be traced back to the original family that had it. Persists because people don't experience symptoms until after most reproductive years are over.

Positive one: An extended family carries a mutation that essentially prevents them from having high cholesterol, no matter what they eat. Thus far, negative effects of this mutation have not been found, while positives include heart disease being nearly nonexistent in this family.

A bit of a give and take one: A small number of people have a mutation that causes them to have abnormally strong bones. It was discovered when people began to notice that certain people rarely experienced bone fractures and breaks, despite experiencing trauma that should cause such injuries. Besides very thick bones, a documented trend amongst these people is a small protrusion in the boney pallet in the mouth (I don't think it causes speech problems, I haven't seen any documents that say so, but it might. Additionally, I would imagine these people require more calcium in their diets than the average person).
 
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Loudmouth

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Evo scientist have based the so-called evolutionary trail of the animals provided in the OP because they find similar looking animals and then line them up according to a belief system....and call it evolutionism.

Please show that this is actually done.

In case you were wondering, that is not how cladistics or phylogenetics is done, nor are they belief systems.

My post pointed out the great pains the evolving animal would have to hurdle over to accomplish what the evo-minded scientist said needed to have occurred.

Just like the mountain lion goes through great pains to be in Maine and Oregon at the same time.
 
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-57

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A couple recent human mutations:

Negative one: a genetic disease that causes people to lose the ability to sleep when they approach their 30s and 40s. Can be traced back to the original family that had it. Persists because people don't experience symptoms until after most reproductive years are over.

Positive one: An extended family carries a mutation that essentially prevents them from having high cholesterol, no matter what they eat. Thus far, negative effects of this mutation have not been found, while positives include heart disease being nearly nonexistent in this family.

A bit of a give and take one: A small number of people have a mutation that causes them to have abnormally strong bones. It was discovered when people began to notice that certain people rarely experienced bone fractures and breaks, despite experiencing trauma that should cause such injuries. Besides very thick bones, a documented trend amongst these people is a small protrusion in the boney pallet in the mouth (I don't think it causes speech problems, I haven't seen any documents that say so, but it might. Additionally, I would imagine these people require more calcium in their diets than the average person).

You didn't show how they add up.
 
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Loudmouth

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When will you show it's possible. You can't.

If you think it can't happen in 3 million years, why would you think it happened in the much shorter time periods that creationists propose?

Bottom line...fossils were found and lined up in a form of apparent evolutionism.

So you admit that they look transitional?
 
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PsychoSarah

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You didn't show how they add up.
-_- add up? I am guessing that you want someone with multiple genetic mutations affecting genes like these. Literally all that would have to happen is for someone with one of these traits to have a kid with someone with a different and unrelated trait from mutation.
 
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-57

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-_- add up? I am guessing that you want someone with multiple genetic mutations affecting genes like these. Literally all that would have to happen is for someone with one of these traits to have a kid with someone with a different and unrelated trait from mutation.

It's truly amazing how the evo's gotta dumb stuff down and they still miss the question. Wow.
....adding up of mutations.....is what you would need in the generations prodigy DNA to form something like the dolphins echo-location system.

Its really not that hard of a concept. Apparently you believe it...but throw your arms up in the air when asked to explain it.
 
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Loudmouth

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....adding up of mutations.....is what you would need in the generations prodigy DNA to form something like the dolphins echo-location system.

Accumulation is what mutations do. We observe that every generation is born with mutations, and those mutations are passed on to offspring who then have mutations of their own. We observe the accumulation of mutations. What is the problem here?
 
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-57

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Accumulation is what mutations do. We observe that every generation is born with mutations, and those mutations are passed on to offspring who then have mutations of their own. We observe the accumulation of mutations. What is the problem here?
ROFLOL....surely you jest!!!!!

No you don't. As I just said above..YOU EVOS DUMB IT DOWN. Sure we pass along "mutations". Big deal. Your problem is having so-called beneficial mutations effecting the same trait.....over and over again...many, many times.
 
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Loudmouth

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ROFLOL....surely you jest!!!!!

No you don't. As I just said above..YOU EVOS DUMB IT DOWN. Sure we pass along "mutations". Big deal. Your problem is having so-called beneficial mutations effecting the same trait.....over and over again...many, many times.

How is that a problem?
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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When you can show me how mutations can add up and form new and novel traits....such as the dolphins echo-location system.....Get back to me.

Different globin genes/proteins from ancestral genome duplication:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22846683

Bat wings due to several key mutations:
http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-11-619

Whale bodies from broken interaction between Shh and Hand2 genes.
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/22/8414.full

Duplicated gene ARHGAP11B leads to increased brain complexity in human lineage.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6229/1465.abstract
 
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-57

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Different globin genes/proteins from ancestral genome duplication:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22846683

Bat wings due to several key mutations:
http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-11-619

Whale bodies from broken interaction between Shh and Hand2 genes.
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/22/8414.full

Duplicated gene ARHGAP11B leads to increased brain complexity in human lineage.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/347/6229/1465.abstract

The first: Didn't really answer the question.
The second: Just seemed to study the differences.
The third: From a developmental perspective, the descriptive embryology of hind-limb reduction in cetaceans has been studied (6, 7). However, the genetically regulated mechanism underlying this developmental pattern remains unknown,...it speaks for itself.
The fourth: Like the others...what is presented is "suggestions" How to get from "a" to "b". Concluding with out saying how.
 
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Jimmy D

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When will you show it's possible. You can't. i understand that.
Bottom line...fossils were found and lined up in a form of apparent evolutionism.

Since when has anyone had to jump to it and do your homework for you, you've already demonstrated, on numerous threads that you will dismiss anything that's presented to you.

Your incredulity is noted and the world keeps turning.

Why not educate yourself on the topic?
 
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-57

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Since when has anyone had to jump to it and do your homework for you, you've already demonstrated, on numerous threads that you will dismiss anything that's presented to you.

Your incredulity is noted and the world keeps turning.

Why not educate yourself on the topic?

Considering evolutions isn't possible, of course I find it easy to dismiss....then again I've noticed you dismiss anything concerning the reality of God. Soooooooooooo, perhaps i should note your incredulity.

I've been asking for an evo, any evo to demonstrate that mutations can add up and form complex systems such as the dolphins echo-location system or something much smaller yet complicated as a motor protein. All I get back is the coloring book version.
 
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Loudmouth

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The first: Didn't really answer the question.
The second: Just seemed to study the differences.
The third: From a developmental perspective, the descriptive embryology of hind-limb reduction in cetaceans has been studied (6, 7). However, the genetically regulated mechanism underlying this developmental pattern remains unknown,...it speaks for itself.
The fourth: Like the others...what is presented is "suggestions" How to get from "a" to "b". Concluding with out saying how.

Creationist: Evolution can't produce beneficial mutations.

Evolutionist: Here are a handful of examples.

Creationist: Look over there, is that a Yeti?
 
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PsychoSarah

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It's truly amazing how the evo's gotta dumb stuff down and they still miss the question. Wow.
....adding up of mutations.....is what you would need in the generations prodigy DNA to form something like the dolphins echo-location system.

Its really not that hard of a concept. Apparently you believe it...but throw your arms up in the air when asked to explain it.
No, your question was just oddly worded. Now it is extremely broad. Shall I narrow it down a bit, to the evolution of the eye?

While some people will try to claim that a structure such as the eye is irreducibly complex; that is, if any genes contributing to it were not present, the resulting structure would be useless, and thus there would be no selective pressure promoting the intermediates between having eyes and not having eyes.

This is actually incorrect, for a few reasons, though it is an understandable mistake. I will go through with you as to how eyes evolved, and mention the errors made in that assumption along the way.

Eyes started out as merely light sensitive portions of eukaryotic cells. Even modern single-celled eukaryotic organisms often have these, and the "eye-spot", as they are often referred to, is actually the most common eye in nature. Here's a wiki article on how they work, feel free to use the sources they cite for further reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyespot_apparatus .
A single gene mutation easily accounts for these simple eyes, which only detect light intensity.

These eye spots are a cell organelle, and thus the cell body can make multitudes of them to promote a stronger response from light. From the start, they cluster in one area of the cell, much like how our ocular organs are in one location and not all over the place. This forms a patch of light sensitive cells.

One of the nice things about eye evolution is that creatures with intermediate eyes still exist. There currently are organisms that have just a patch of light sensitive eyes. From this point forward, I will go easy on myself, because this topic has enough information to fill multiple books and I am not typing that all out. So, I will link images of creatures that have the intermediate eyes, and a short statement indicating what the intermediate represents.

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl_1/8567/F1.large.jpg all next to each other as a diagram of eye structure.

http://www.d.umn.edu/~olse0176/Evolution/bac_bacteria2.jpg eyespot

https://kelltrill.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/planarian2.jpg pigment cup eye (isn't it interesting how even at just having a couple of layers of photoreceptive cells, that these simple structures share asthetic similarities with our eyes?)

http://www.d.umn.edu/~olse0176/Evolution/pin_naut.jpg pinhole lens eye (start of eye structures only seen in multicellular organisms, however, it should be noted that there are some multicellular organisms with pigment cup eyes, such as mollusks)

http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/HumanEye/humane6.jpg http://www.snailfarmingsecrets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Helix_aspersa.jpg close-up and normal view of a garden snail eye, which is an eye with a primitive lens.

http://warrenmars.com/photography/technical/resolution/human_eye_diagram.gif a complex eye. Note, however, that humans are far from having the best vision of any creature.

You might wonder why all these stages of eye development continue to exist. There are a few reasons for that. For one thing, light detection is such a beneficial trait to have, that it has evolved independently a minimum of 50 times at various points in history. Hence, some lines of eyes are evolutionarily behind others. Furthermore, eyes are a costly structure to maintain, so single-celled organisms have limits as to how developed their eyes can be before they become more of a hinderance than a benefit. This can go to multicellular creatures as well, hence why nocturnal creatures either have extremely large and developed eyes, or very small, underdeveloped eyes. Predators benefit more from being able to see distinct colors than prey animals, and prey animals benefit more from detecting motion and having a wide field of vision, hence their differences in eye structure and position on the body. Humans have predator-style eyes.
 
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-57

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No, your question was just oddly worded. Now it is extremely broad. Shall I narrow it down a bit, to the evolution of the eye?

While some people will try to claim that a structure such as the eye is irreducibly complex; that is, if any genes contributing to it were not present, the resulting structure would be useless, and thus there would be no selective pressure promoting the intermediates between having eyes and not having eyes.

This is actually incorrect, for a few reasons, though it is an understandable mistake. I will go through with you as to how eyes evolved, and mention the errors made in that assumption along the way.

Eyes started out as merely light sensitive portions of eukaryotic cells. Even modern single-celled eukaryotic organisms often have these, and the "eye-spot", as they are often referred to, is actually the most common eye in nature. Here's a wiki article on how they work, feel free to use the sources they cite for further reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyespot_apparatus .
A single gene mutation easily accounts for these simple eyes, which only detect light intensity.

These eye spots are a cell organelle, and thus the cell body can make multitudes of them to promote a stronger response from light. From the start, they cluster in one area of the cell, much like how our ocular organs are in one location and not all over the place. This forms a patch of light sensitive cells.

One of the nice things about eye evolution is that creatures with intermediate eyes still exist. There currently are organisms that have just a patch of light sensitive eyes. From this point forward, I will go easy on myself, because this topic has enough information to fill multiple books and I am not typing that all out. So, I will link images of creatures that have the intermediate eyes, and a short statement indicating what the intermediate represents.

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl_1/8567/F1.large.jpg all next to each other as a diagram of eye structure.

http://www.d.umn.edu/~olse0176/Evolution/bac_bacteria2.jpg eyespot

https://kelltrill.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/planarian2.jpg pigment cup eye (isn't it interesting how even at just having a couple of layers of photoreceptive cells, that these simple structures share asthetic similarities with our eyes?)

http://www.d.umn.edu/~olse0176/Evolution/pin_naut.jpg pinhole lens eye (start of eye structures only seen in multicellular organisms, however, it should be noted that there are some multicellular organisms with pigment cup eyes, such as mollusks)

http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/HumanEye/humane6.jpg http://www.snailfarmingsecrets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Helix_aspersa.jpg close-up and normal view of a garden snail eye, which is an eye with a primitive lens.

http://warrenmars.com/photography/technical/resolution/human_eye_diagram.gif a complex eye. Note, however, that humans are far from having the best vision of any creature.

You might wonder why all these stages of eye development continue to exist. There are a few reasons for that. For one thing, light detection is such a beneficial trait to have, that it has evolved independently a minimum of 50 times at various points in history. Hence, some lines of eyes are evolutionarily behind others. Furthermore, eyes are a costly structure to maintain, so single-celled organisms have limits as to how developed their eyes can be before they become more of a hinderance than a benefit. This can go to multicellular creatures as well, hence why nocturnal creatures either have extremely large and developed eyes, or very small, underdeveloped eyes. Predators benefit more from being able to see distinct colors than prey animals, and prey animals benefit more from detecting motion and having a wide field of vision, hence their differences in eye structure and position on the body. Humans have predator-style eyes.

You can present your theory all day long if you want to..but it syill doesn't answer the question.

Your whole process comes to a screeching halt when you realize that there needs to be an accumulation of so-called beneficial mutations occurring in the right portion of the DNA. You have not demonstrated this is possible...only suggested it is possible
 
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