What’s the difference between a moral barrier and an immoral barrier

[grasping the after wind]

What gets me is that if Trump had managed to make a deal with regards to the DACA dreamers he would have gotten his wall. The problem isn't the wall, it's a lack of compromise.

IMO Democrats do not compromise in the traditional sense ,rather they demand the other side give in and then call that a compromise, Trump does not act like a Republican and cave in to Democrat demands as he was for the greater part of his life an uncompromising Democrat.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Not all but we could discuss that on the Theology threads.

We could, but we might not agree what objective means. I have always maintained that morality is subjective and that God's morality, as subjective as it is, is as good as an objective morality for we mere humans.

 

[mark kennedy]

IMO Democrats do not compromise in the traditional sense ,rather they demand the other side give in and then call that a compromise, Trump does not act like a Republican and cave in to Democrat demands as he was for the greater part of his life an uncompromising Democrat.

I guess I'm just not seeing this, I don't know what his opinion was before entering office, I know what he has done since. He has had several choice deals that he simply blew up. He actually had one before the latest shutdown, then all of the sudden he wouldn't sign it. Now he is threatening an historical shutdown, he claims could last for years. Give me 5 billion dollars for the wall or else. The Democrats are opting for 'or else', because there is no compromise in his offer. With every fiber of my being I believe this could be resolved but Trump is offering them a big political win because he refuses to compromise. He is handing it to them on a silver platter and I cannot for the life of me figure out what he thinks he will gain here politically.

 

[mark kennedy]

We could, but we might not agree what objective means. I have always maintained that morality is subjective and that God's morality, as subjective as it is, is as good as an objective morality for we mere humans.

Oh now that one I would love to discuss that one theologically, that would be so much more interesting then this.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Opposition to a costly and unnecessary vanity project does not equate to opposition to all walls everywhere. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to comprehend.
Ringo

Perhaps it is difficult for me to comprehend why you think I should accept your opinion that a wall is unnecessary and a vanity project, an opinion which I do not agree with, is fact rather than merely your opinion?

 

[grasping the after wind]

I guess I'm just not seeing this, I don't know what his opinion was before entering office, I know what he has done since. He has had several choice deals that he simply blew up. He actually had one before the latest shutdown, then all of the sudden he wouldn't sign it. Now he is threatening an historical shutdown, he claims could last for years. Give me 5 billion dollars for the wall or else. The Democrats are opting for 'or else', because there is no compromise in his offer. With every fiber of my being I believe this could be resolved but Trump is offering them a big political win because he refuses to compromise. He is handing it to them on a silver platter and I cannot for the life of me figure out what he thinks he will gain here politically.

Perhaps he isn't interested in political gain? Perhaps he just thinks we need this wall?

 

[redleghunter]

He offered that and then reneged on the deal:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/1/17185824/trump-daca-deal-immigration

Trump says DACA deal for young immigrants is off | Reuters

I think that Trump needs to read his own book. He's made himself famous partly on the legend of his "yuuuge deals, buh-lieve me" but has proven to be a terrible negotiator. That's one reason why this is a problem entirely of his making.
Ringo

Interesting both sources did not cover why the deal was rejected.

Democrats refused his counter offer of laws closing some immigration loop holes. Which he called reforms. Many of which are GOP reforms going back years.

Trump agreed to 1.9 Dreamers which was proposed by the Democrats if he got the reforms the GOP has been looking for for years. That’s it. And neither report really got into those details.

 

[mark kennedy]

Perhaps he isn't interested in political gain? Perhaps he just thinks we need this wall?

If that were the only problem he would have had it by now. The problem is that he won't take any deal, no matter what it is, and that is what makes this so tiresome. I think this is coming from his base, being a long time listener to Rush Limbaugh and having watched this unfold on a daily basis I think the problem comes down to his base. They won't compromise on amnesty, not even a little. That is what is polarizing the issue, along with the Democrats wanting open boarders.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Oh now that one I would love to discuss that one theologically, that would be so much more interesting then this.

I think so too. The temporary quarrels of political ideologies are so much less interesting than the eternal questions. I have engaged in these discussions on other sub forums , however I do not recall the exact ones to guide you to that would allow us to explore it more in depth..

 

[redleghunter]

I think so too. The temporary quarrels of political ideologies are so much less interesting than the eternal questions. I have engaged in these discussions on other sub forums , however I do not recall the exact ones to guide you to that would allow us to explore it more in depth..

It could be in Controversial Christian Theology sub forum. Which can be found in the General Theology Forum.

 

[mark kennedy]

I think so too. The temporary quarrels of political ideologies are so much less interesting than the eternal questions. I have engaged in these discussions on other sub forums , however I do not recall the exact ones to guide you to that would allow us to explore it more in depth..

Then perhaps we could start one, I don't know, but it sounds like a very interesting one to me. Drop me a PM or mark me with a @ if you come up with one, I know I would love to get into that one.

 

[mark kennedy]

It could be in Controversial Christian Theology sub forum. Which can be found in the General Theology Forum.

Oh I like that, the morality of God in Controversial Theology. It sounds like a General Theology thread but anyway...back to our regularly scheduled discussion

 

[redleghunter]

That is not "my logic". You seem to be either having a problem comprehending words, or you're deliberately misstating arguments because you don't have any.

When "steel slats" are neither wanted by border agents (What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)) nor warranted by the facts on the ground (Why the Wall Won't Work), then throwing $5 billion dollars in the commode to protect Donny's fragile little ego is immoral - especially when that project comes at the expense of federal workers.
Ringo

Then if steel barriers are not a preferred option why isn’t the debate of the type of physical barrier. We know they work.

And why call it immoral as if some bishop is deeming this so? Why not just state the economic better way for doing it.

What’s really the problem is the Democrats are starting to believe their own fabricated rhetoric.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh I like that, the morality of God in Controversial Theology. It sounds like a General Theology thread but anyway...back to our regularly scheduled discussion

It depends what approach the OP would take.

 

[mark kennedy]

It depends what approach the OP would take.

No, it would depend on what we were willing to concede with regards to God's morality. Bear in mind my brother, this started with whether or not God's morality was subjective or objective. But this is a political discussion, with some moral inferences. One has to wonder, how much does morality have to do with it? I know, at first we think everything but when it comes down to choices, it's hard to say. Anyway, an interesting thought to say the least.

 

[grasping the after wind]

If that were the only problem he would have had it by now. The problem is that he won't take any deal, no matter what it is, and that is what makes this so tiresome. I think this is coming from his base, being a long time listener to Rush Limbaugh and having watched this unfold on a daily basis I think the problem comes down to his base. They won't compromise on amnesty, not even a little. That is what is polarizing the issue, along with the Democrats wanting open boarders.

You have a point there. Other than misspelling borders,( I tend to be somewhat hypocritical in regards to grammatical and spelling as , though I am just as guilty of wrong doing there as anyone else, I still make a point of pointing out other's mistakes.). So don't be the least afraid to hoist me on my own petard when you see me either misspelling or being grammatically incorrect. As a matter of fact, I would welcome correction. Trump , having made a border wall the central issue in his campaign , cannot just give it up and pretend that a border wall was never that important to him or his supporters. Even he must face actual facts from time to time. Democrats, despite their former support for some kind of barrier( yes even a wall), cannot politically allow Trump to fulfill that promise and hope to unseat him in 2020 or hope to remain in good graces with the part of their base that is of the radical left. So the government employees must suffer the consequences of two interactable parties. The fact that the vast majority of citizens feels zero pain from this is lost on many politicians as they only understand that the people they are acquainted with i.e. bureaucrats working for the government much the same as they themselves, are being at the very least inconvenienced and in many cases finding it next to impossible to make ends meet.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Obviously not, since you keep making logical leaps about what she said.



Saying that Donny's wall is immoral, unnecessary and unneeded != all walls everywhere are immoral.
Ringo

I would be satisfied with a rational explanation why Donny's wall is immoral .

 

[mark kennedy]

You have a point there. Other than misspelling borders,( I tend to be somewhat hypocritical in regards to grammatical and spelling as , though I am just as guilty of wrong doing there as anyone else, I still make a point of pointing out other's mistakes.). So don't be the least afraid to hoist me on my own petard when you see me either misspelling or being grammatically incorrect. As a matter of fact, I would welcome correction. Trump , having made a border wall the central issue in his campaign , cannot just give it up and pretend that a border wall was never that important to him or his supporters. Even he must face actual facts from time to time. Democrats, despite their former support for some kind of barrier( yes even a wall), cannot politically allow Trump to fulfill that promise and hope to unseat him in 2020 or hope to remain in good graces with the part of their base that is of the radical left. So the government employees must suffer the consequences of two interactable parties. The fact that the vast majority of citizens feels zero pain from this is lost on many politicians as they only understand that the people they are acquainted with i.e. bureaucrats working for the government much the same as they themselves, are being at the very least inconvenienced and in many cases finding it next to impossible to make ends meet.

I'm a terrible speller, freely admit that, if you think that's bad you should see some of my errors from a cell phone. Anyway, we are seeing a clash of extremes, that seems obvious to me. If Trump fails to produce the wall his supporters will never forgive him, the Democrats know this. So no matter how bad this gets the Democrats will keep their base while Trump is betting the farm his base will understand.

If it's any conciliation I hope Trump finds a way to win this one but don't like his chances. I think he blew several deals and he isn't getting another one anytime soon, to much political capitol at stake. But more to come, let's just hang on with all our might and see how this goes.

 

[mark kennedy]

I would be satisfied with a rational explanation why Donny's wall is immoral .

Because of how he went about trying to get it for one thing.

 

[grasping the after wind]

It could be in Controversial Christian Theology sub forum. Which can be found in the General Theology Forum.

Yes but the actual particular threads in which I have previously discussed this would be much more difficult to find, nor would I say that such discussion was even relegated to that particular forum. The idea that God's morality is subjective is not necessarily controversial.