Westminster confession and Psalms

[Heavenhome]

Hi I would like to know that if the Presbyterian church holds to the Westminster confession of faith then why do they not continue to the singing of the Psalms as stated in the confession?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hi I would like to know that if the Presbyterian church holds to the Westminster confession of faith then why do they not continue to the singing of the Psalms as stated in the confession?

There are lots of kinds of Presbyterians. They have varying attachment to the Westminster Confession. Some accept it as originally written, some with modifications, some may not be all that attached to it.

Funny story. When I wanted to find a copy of the Westminster Confession some years ago, pre-internet, I couldn't find it anywhere except in the University of Minnesota library rare book section under lock and key. I got to see an early printing of it but they watched me to make sure I didn't mark it up or anything.

 

[Heavenhome]

There are lots of kinds of Presbyterians. They have varying attachment to the Westminster Confession. Some accept it as originally written, some with modifications, some may not be all that attached to it.

Funny story. When I wanted to find a copy of the Westminster Confession some years ago, pre-internet, I couldn't find it anywhere except in the University of Minnesota library rare book section under lock and key. I got to see an early printing of it but they watched me to make sure I didn't mark it up or anything.

 

[Heavenhome]

Thanks for your reply, I am from Australia so I wondered if it applied elsewhere. I was amused that you had such a hard time to get to read it, of course the internet spoils us now. I have a book of it and it really puzzles me that if a church holds to it why they do not sing the psalms as stated. I know times change etc. but I still think we should adhere to what we say. Of course it is the Bible that is our ultimate standard being the very Word of God but in Ephesians 5:19 it says "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord."

 

[Heavenhome]

Thanks for your reply, I am from Australia so I wondered if it applied elsewhere. I was amused that you had such a hard time to get to read it, of course the internet spoils us now. I have a book of it and it really puzzles me that if a church holds to it why they do not sing the psalms as stated. I know times change etc. but I still think we should adhere to what we say. Of course it is the Bible that is our ultimate standard being the very Word of God but in Ephesians 5:19 it says "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord."

Sorry meant to add that what individuals do or think doesn't apply here what I want to know is why a Church denomination would state that it holds to the Westminster confession when it doesn't!

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sorry meant to add that what individuals do or think doesn't apply here what I want to know is why a Church denomination would state that it holds to the Westminster confession when it doesn't!

Well, you would have to ask them. I'm kind of out of my element here as a Catholic. And things might even be different between Australia and the USA. What kind of Presbyterian do they claim to be?

 

[JM]

I'm thinking about changing churches and will be visiting a liberal mainline Presby church Wednesday. This is a great question, one that I will ask when there and get back to this thread.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[hedrick]

Note that the PCUSA hymnal differs from some other denominations, in that it has settings for many of the psalms. While we don't restrict our music to just the psalms, we do encourage using them. Additional ways of singing the Psalms are included in the Book of Common Worship.

 

[Heavenhome]

I only know of three types of Presbyterian churches 1Presbyterian,2 Reformed Presbyterian,3 Free Presbyterian.
I know the Free Presbyterian only sing Psalms, I'm not sure about the Reformed and then where I am which is the general Presbyterian. There are maybe 2 Free Presbyterian churches in our state and I think only two others in another. At the moment our minister is on leave but I will ask him when he gets back. On the website for the Presbyterian church what I gather is it is left up to individual churches what they do. Its just I don't understand if you are saying that you hold to the WC of faith, that you would pick and choose what you actually do.
I am new to the Presbyterian church but have been a Christian since 1986 . In Australia there aren't large congregations, especially in the country town which I drive to. Thank you for your reply I appreciate it and it looks like I will investigate further.....

 

[hedrick]

I've seen several claims that when the WCF refers to psalms, people would have understood that to include a range of songs not limited to the Book of Psalms. Does anyone here know enough about the history of the Confession to evaluate that?

See e.g. Chapter 21.3, 4, 5.

 

[Heavenhome]

• I've seen several claims that when the WCF refers to psalms, people would have understood that to include a range of songs not limited to the Book of Psalms. Does anyone here know enough about the history of the Confession to evaluate that?
  
  See e.g. Chapter 21.3, 4, 5.

  I have heard that also but I just wondered why they no longer do sing them as Ephesians 5:19says....psalms and hymns and spiritual songs
  
  
• Basically why the singing of the psalms are no longer.

 

[Heavenhome]

I'm thinking about changing churches and will be visiting a liberal mainline Presby church Wednesday. This is a great question, one that I will ask when there and get back to this thread.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I'm thinking about changing churches and will be visiting a liberal mainline Presby church Wednesday. This is a great question, one that I will ask when there and get back to this thread.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Thank you for that,I will be interested in hearing what you have been told.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Seems to me that there are numerous varieties of Presbyterians.

If one does not distinguish between Israel and the church in Scripture's scheme of revelation, then I suppose I can see how some people would be attracted to exclusive psalmody.

I do love the Psalms, BTW (and indeed started a thread about them a while ago).

 

[hedrick]

I have heard that also but I just wondered why they no longer do sing them as Ephesians 5:19says....psalms and hymns and spiritual songs

The argument is that these terms refer to the three different sections of the book of Psalms. I don't agree, but no one in this discussion seems to be explaining the traditional Reformed position.

See Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs.

 

[JM]

Thank you for that,I will be interested in hearing what you have been told.

I had the date for the Bible study wrong but I will reply after I speak with the Pastor.

 

[hedrick]

Sorry meant to add that what individuals do or think doesn't apply here what I want to know is why a Church denomination would state that it holds to the Westminster confession when it doesn't!

I'm thinking about changing churches and will be visiting a liberal mainline Presby church Wednesday. This is a great question, one that I will ask when there and get back to this thread.

Please remember that not all Presbyterian denominations are committed to Westminster in the same way. Since these two people are from Australia and Canada, respectively, I note:

The Presbyterian Church of Canada has a nice paper describing what it means to be confessional. It describe two models, both of which are held in differing parts of their church. Once is a traditional concept of subscription; the other an "always reforming" model where the commitment to historical confessions isn't as strict.

The Presbyterian Church of Australia as a Declaratory Statement that significantly weakens subscription, by explicitly permitting several non-traditional doctrines (including inclusivism), and providing liberty of conscience on matters not essential.

In this kind of situation I think the answer JM is going to get is going to depend upon the specific pastor and congregation.

 

[JM]

Yes, of course. That's why I will visit the Bible study and ask questions at that time. I don't want to drag my wife out to the service if the theology is completely contrary to what we believe.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi I would like to know that if the Presbyterian church holds to the Westminster confession of faith then why do they not continue to the singing of the Psalms as stated in the confession?

One often finds that geography can affect just how much certain groups continue with emphases that in other places would be emphasized differently.

I think also that in Australia there is separation of church and state, right? and so, whatever the theory, in practice if a church group does not see itself as the Israel of God established on earth, then their rootedness in Old Testament as opposed to New Testament practices might also likewise be a little less strictly adhered to. (Churches of a more dispensational outlook would also tend to draw more heavily from the New Testament than the Old for their practices.)

 

[Radagast]

Sorry meant to add that what individuals do or think doesn't apply here what I want to know is why a Church denomination would state that it holds to the Westminster confession when it doesn't!

Both in Australia and the USA, Presbyterian churches have different views on psalm-singing. Some congregations sing psalms only; some sing at least one psalm every Sunday; others sing no psalms at all.

The WCF mentions psalms, but it doesn't actually say only psalms. And my edition is footnoted to Colossians 3:16: Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

 

[Radagast]

I only know of three types of Presbyterian churches 1Presbyterian,2 Reformed Presbyterian,3 Free Presbyterian.

For US readers, 1 is the Presbyterian Church of Australia, much like the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA).

2 is the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Australia, much like the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA). Their opinion on psalms is here.

3 is the very small Free Presbyterian Church of Australia, much like the Free Presbyterian Church of North America (FPCNA).

+ Not mentioned by the OP is the Presbyterian Church of Eastern Australia, much like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC).

+ Those people in Australia corresponding to the Presbyterian Church (USA) quite some time ago united with other mainline denominations to form the Uniting Church in Australia.

As noted by @hedrick above, the Presbyterian Church of Australia reads the WCF in the light of a declaratory statement, which says that "liberty of opinion is allowed on matters in the [WCF] not essential to the doctrine therein taught, the Church guarding against the abuse of this liberty to the injury of its unity and peace."

The singing of psalms, as opposed to hymns, would fall into the category of "matters ... not essential to the doctrine therein taught."

However, there are certainly people in the Presbyterian Church of Australia who would like to see more psalms sung, especially if they have modern settings.

Hi I would like to know that if the Presbyterian church holds to the Westminster confession of faith then why do they not continue to the singing of the Psalms as stated in the confession?

If you look at the declaratory statement, which "does not replace the Bible or the Westminster Confession of Faith, but was designed to show how the Westminster Confession of Faith is to be interpreted and used by this Church," you will see that the Presbyterian Church of Australia is acting exactly as advertised in this regard. It has liberty of opinion on singing psalms.