West vs East-Spiritual Warfare

[Johnny Ross]

Hello, newbie here. Just wanted to share my story here just as a reminder that the Orthodox way is more existential than it is cerebral. You see, I was a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and was getting ready to talk to the Priest about Chrismation for this past Pascha but decided the GOARCH was not for me. Why?

1. I saw the string of missteps by Archbishop Elpidophoros such as marching with the Godless BLM, giving an address at the democratic national convention but not the republican one and attending the controversy he caused in Greece and Cyprus with his presence at the ceremony for the opening of the Turkevi Center (Turkish House) in NYC.

This caused me to pause and take a step backwards in order to take a closer look at leadership, theology & policy. It was then I discovered the second troubling aspect of this Church leading up to my departure.

2. Patriarch Bartholomew precipitated a schism in the Unity of the Church by granting autocephaly to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine which was not recognized by other Orthodox churches and were considered schismatic. I began to ask, “why would he do such a thing knowing full well what would happen?” First, I discovered that Patriarch of Constantinople is closely aligned with the West & Washington, even attending the WEF- Davos 2020, and therefore probably doesn’t have much love lost on the Russians or Patriarch Kirill. He undoubtedly supports the Wests attempt to weaken and immobilize Russian thereby neutering his Ecclesiastical nemesis in Moscow. This brings me to my final reason for leaving Constantinople in favor of Antioch and has to do with this notion of “Primus inter pares” First without Equals.

3. I have studied this fight over primacy that has divided the Orthodox church and have come down on the side of Moscow who states, “Primacy in the Universal Orthodox Church, which is the primacy of honor by its very nature, rather than that of power, is very important for the Orthodox witness in the modern world.” (Position of the Moscow Patriarchate on the Issue of Primacy in the Universal Church-Document 5).

4. This struggle between Constantinople and Moscow is the same fight as Russia vs Ukraine (West vs East). It is the confrontation so exquisitely expressed when the Christ was brought before Pilate. Here Truth and Power confront each other and when Pilate asks contemptuously of the Christ "What is Truth?", he pathetically had no idea of the epoch changing event he was about to help unleash. The West and its woke zombies care nothing about Truth; it's all about power and Nietzsche would be proud.
Do we follow the decadence of the West into its hyper-individualism, or do we maintain and defend traditional collective structures maintained by most of the World?

As an example, I was in one of my catechumen classes after service one day where the discussion that Sunday was on Forgiveness. In the course of the discussion, the lady teacher offered, in my opinion, a shocking definition of Forgiveness when she said, “Forgiveness is radical self-interest”. To me, this is a perfect example of why I cannot join a Church so closely aligned with Western values the promotes the sovereignty of the individual above all else. Hell, if I wanted that I would have remained a Roman or just go all out and join a non-denominational sect.

Here is a good paper that has helped me articulate and understand this issue of Primacy going on between The Patriarchs of Constantinople & Moscow:

Primacy and Synodality from an Orthodox Perspective

 

[Lukaris]

All I can say is try to find a welcoming parish with a priest who is faithful and friendly and discerning, towards other Christians. There are good parishes that might not be under the best hierarchy and vice versa.

I am a convert from Pennsylvania but I also know of family history experience in a parish since my father was cradle Orthodox although his father left our parish in the 1940s ( I belong to that our family originally did). My grandparents saw a lot of things that must have frustrated them in the 1930s & 40s like:

Aftimios (Ofiesh) - Wikipedia

and in 1944 there was some quarrel over the parish priest ( nothing deviant but stupidity & self destructive). My grandparents became impressed by the Biblical approach of Baptists, Adventists etc. but rejected their insistence that they needed to be “baptized” into a non Orthodox group. My grandmother returned to Orthodoxy but the rest of the family basically fell away but kept donating to our parish as my grandmother wanted them to do.

Fast forward to 2003, I was basically a non Christian at 40 years of age and had suddenly realized I needed Jesus Christ as savior. I knew little of Orthodoxy except that my late father originally was a kid in the “Syrian” church. I drifted through non Orthodox churches for a year then just decided I should consider the “Syrian” church. Everything fell into place and I have been blessed to not have experienced the frustration I know my grandfather must have felt. There have been ups & downs but not on a serious faith level and have had good parish priests as our pastors. My Orthodox world is a small one too.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hello, newbie here. Just wanted to share my story here just as a reminder that the Orthodox way is more existential than it is cerebral. You see, I was a catechumen in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and was getting ready to talk to the Priest about Chrismation for this past Pascha but decided the GOARCH was not for me. Why?

1. I saw the string of missteps by Archbishop Elpidophoros such as marching with the Godless BLM, giving an address at the democratic national convention but not the republican one and attending the controversy he caused in Greece and Cyprus with his presence at the ceremony for the opening of the Turkevi Center (Turkish House) in NYC.

This caused me to pause and take a step backwards in order to take a closer look at leadership, theology & policy. It was then I discovered the second troubling aspect of this Church leading up to my departure.

2. Patriarch Bartholomew precipitated a schism in the Unity of the Church by granting autocephaly to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine which was not recognized by other Orthodox churches and were considered schismatic. I began to ask, “why would he do such a thing knowing full well what would happen?” First, I discovered that Patriarch of Constantinople is closely aligned with the West & Washington, even attending the WEF- Davos 2020, and therefore probably doesn’t have much love lost on the Russians or Patriarch Kirill. He undoubtedly supports the Wests attempt to weaken and immobilize Russian thereby neutering his Ecclesiastical nemesis in Moscow. This brings me to my final reason for leaving Constantinople in favor of Antioch and has to do with this notion of “Primus inter pares” First without Equals.

3. I have studied this fight over primacy that has divided the Orthodox church and have come down on the side of Moscow who states, “Primacy in the Universal Orthodox Church, which is the primacy of honor by its very nature, rather than that of power, is very important for the Orthodox witness in the modern world.” (Position of the Moscow Patriarchate on the Issue of Primacy in the Universal Church-Document 5).

4. This struggle between Constantinople and Moscow is the same fight as Russia vs Ukraine (West vs East). It is the confrontation so exquisitely expressed when the Christ was brought before Pilate. Here Truth and Power confront each other and when Pilate asks contemptuously of the Christ "What is Truth?", he pathetically had no idea of the epoch changing event he was about to help unleash. The West and its woke zombies care nothing about Truth; it's all about power and Nietzsche would be proud.
Do we follow the decadence of the West into its hyper-individualism, or do we maintain and defend traditional collective structures maintained by most of the World?

As an example, I was in one of my catechumen classes after service one day where the discussion that Sunday was on Forgiveness. In the course of the discussion, the lady teacher offered, in my opinion, a shocking definition of Forgiveness when she said, “Forgiveness is radical self-interest”. To me, this is a perfect example of why I cannot join a Church so closely aligned with Western values the promotes the sovereignty of the individual above all else. Hell, if I wanted that I would have remained a Roman or just go all out and join a non-denominational sect.

Here is a good paper that has helped me articulate and understand this issue of Primacy going on between The Patriarchs of Constantinople & Moscow:

Primacy and Synodality from an Orthodox Perspective

have you checked out other parishes?

 

[rusmeister]

There are troublesome issues on both sides of this split, insofar as it is a dichotomy.
But you’ve laid out the issues on the one side fairly well.
I’d note that, in all fairness to dissenting members, most of those that support AB Elpidiphorous and BLM believe that they are opposing racism, and the aspects of BLM that are at enmity with Orthodox teaching don’t concern them.
My hope, such as it is, is that it isn’t a flat dichotomy, that both sides can repent of things they have gone wrong in (“repent”) in terms of understandings, rather than of personal sins, and turn to that remnant that stays faithful.

 

[Johnny Ross]

have you checked out other parishes?

Yes, checking out an Antiochian Church now

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, checking out an Antiochian Church now

good to hear. just keep in mind not to judge a parish or jurisdiction based on the errors of those who lead it. there were plenty of times the local laity and clergy, with a few bishops preserved the Church.

 

[archer75]

Good luck and may Christ God bless your search.

You should know that there is nothing particularly Eastern about Orthodoxy.

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.” –St. John Maximovitch (of San Francisco and Shanghai)

The present war against Ukraine is not a war in defense of Orthodoxy. It is a war against a largely Orthodox civilian population, the very flock that Patriarch Kirill claims as his own as part of the Moscow Patriarchate.

 

[rusmeister]

Good luck and may Christ God bless your search.

You should know that there is nothing particularly Eastern about Orthodoxy.

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.” –St. John Maximovitch (of San Francisco and Shanghai)

The present war against Ukraine is not a war in defense of Orthodoxy. It is a war against a largely Orthodox civilian population, the very flock that Patriarch Kirill claims as his own as part of the Moscow Patriarchate.

I do agree with you to some extent, though I think the situation is more complex, as I have said before. There IS blame to be had all around. Until this year, I would have said that most of the blame lay with the Western powers doing the bidding of the plutocrats who want global power AND perpetual limited wars. This year, Russia fell right into their trap, and now also shares a greater share of blame. And many ordinary citizens do not enthusiastically support the government's actions, and continue to see Ukrainians as brothers, but have no power over the government. And there ARE forces on the globalist side that DO aim to suppress traditional Christianity, but on the Russian side, there IS resurgent nostalgia for the USSR and Stalinism, most alarmingly in the Church itself. So I see, not a simple scenario where "our side is good, the other side is bad", but plenty of bad all around. The violence ought to stop immediately, of course.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So I see, not a simple scenario where "our side is good, the other side is bad", but plenty of bad all around. The violence ought to stop immediately, of course.

yup and yup.

 

[archer75]

I do agree with you to some extent, though I think the situation is more complex, as I have said before. There IS blame to be had all around. Until this year, I would have said that most of the blame lay with the Western powers doing the bidding of the plutocrats who want global power AND perpetual limited wars. This year, Russia fell right into their trap, and now also shares a greater share of blame. And many ordinary citizens do not enthusiastically support the government's actions, and continue to see Ukrainians as brothers, but have no power over the government. And there ARE forces on the globalist side that DO aim to suppress traditional Christianity, but on the Russian side, there IS resurgent nostalgia for the USSR and Stalinism, most alarmingly in the Church itself. So I see, not a simple scenario where "our side is good, the other side is bad", but plenty of bad all around. The violence ought to stop immediately, of course.

Rus, the Russian government is now a cult. It cannot be reformed. This is WWIII and there is a side officially and formally dedicated to genocide. That's the wrong side. It's not Biden's fault that Putin has spent the last nearly quarter-century pushing for exactly this.

Splitting the blame up here is counterproductive. Yes, the trans cult is evil, but the trans cult is not actively trying to exterminate a nationality, neither is Putin fighting against the trans cult. The trans cult is responsible for its own crimes (rather: the people in it are responsible).

 

[ArmyMatt]

It cannot be reformed. This is WWIII and there is a side officially and formally dedicated to genocide.

I don’t think we can go that far, at least not yet. certainly might be leading that way.

 

[archer75]

I don’t think we can go that far, at least not yet. certainly might be leading that way.

I hope you're right, Father. As far as the genocide goes, RIA Novosti says "genocide" without actually saying the word. That much is clear (horribly).

 

[Johnny Ross]

-Without question we are heading into a multi-polar world as the end of US hegemony comes to an end. There will be the US pole of power, the Chinese/Russian pole of power and perhaps a middle East & Latin American Poles of influence as well. The sooner we accept this and adjust accordingly, the better off for everyone involved.
-Russia is going to win in Ukraine because it is a matter of Life & Death for them. The only question is how much of Ukraine will stay with the Russians. We need to be pushing dialogue not weapons on the Ukrainians and we need to do it now.
-The West's response to this crisis has been a clown show & a dismal failure and has only solidified the China/Russia alliance. China will support Russia completely because they know they are next.
-The US is no longer this shining city on the hill as she is rotting from within and continues its non-stop destructive interventions abroad. If we look at the distribution of the 392 U.S. military interventions since 1800 reported by the Congressional Research Service in October 2017 by fifty-year increments, the data show a dramatic increase: from 1800–1849 there were thirty-nine interventions; forty-seven from 1850–1899; sixty-nine from 1900–1949; 111 from 1950–1999; and 126 from 2000–2017—a period of only seventeen years as compared to fifty years in the other periods. The USA(Collective West) has need of massive reforms and should not be lecturing anyone else how to live.
-Personally, I've got no dog in this fight and am just calling it the way I see it. As a matter of fact, I would say I admire Hungary the most of any of those Nations over there.

 

[Andrew.H]

Rus, the Russian government is now a cult. It cannot be reformed. This is WWIII and there is a side officially and formally dedicated to genocide. That's the wrong side. It's not Biden's fault that Putin has spent the last nearly quarter-century pushing for exactly this.

Splitting the blame up here is counterproductive. Yes, the trans cult is evil, but the trans cult is not actively trying to exterminate a nationality, neither is Putin fighting against the trans cult. The trans cult is responsible for its own crimes (rather: the people in it are responsible).

https://twitter.com/camaradabruno/status/1499589381727924224

https://twitter.com/camaradabruno/status/1499771397614321665

Spend some time going through that thread, it's in Portugese though so you'll have to translate.

If you're going to pick sides, these are the people you'll have to recognize as allies(which why not, we built the Taliban, al Qaeda etc) or enemies. There's not a good guy in this fight, it's just one has greater power than the other at the moment. The West has absolutely no moral ground to stand on.

I would propose that, you and the OP take a step back from drowning in global politics. You can only affect what's in front of you at best.

I would also mention to OP, it may be worthwhile to politely challenge what you hear as being wrong or untruthful. If we only respond to falsity in front of us by quietly getting up and leaving, what can that lead to but a kind of internal "balkanization" of the Church?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I hope you're right, Father. As far as the genocide goes, RIA Novosti says "genocide" without actually saying the word. That much is clear (horribly).

well, that was more me commenting on this war being WWIII and being beyond reform.

 

[rusmeister]

Rus, the Russian government is now a cult. It cannot be reformed. This is WWIII and there is a side officially and formally dedicated to genocide. That's the wrong side. It's not Biden's fault that Putin has spent the last nearly quarter-century pushing for exactly this.

Splitting the blame up here is counterproductive. Yes, the trans cult is evil, but the trans cult is not actively trying to exterminate a nationality, neither is Putin fighting against the trans cult. The trans cult is responsible for its own crimes (rather: the people in it are responsible).

I think you greatly underestimate what you call “the trans cult”. It is far more than that. And that leads you to dismiss the legitimate things the OP pointed out that do give people on the Russian side their actual legs to stand on, and without which most support for the war would not exist.

I think that what you call “the trans cult” is the public sexual anarchy that the richest and most powerful men, the ultimate owners of the big businesses, and the lobbies that purchase the politicians away from their constituents, push on the general populace through their various media, news, entertainment, and social media sources and platforms. The practical purpose of the rich in doing so can be seen in Jeffery Epstein’s island. It is their general effort to escape all public control for themselves, by removing all proper stigmas everywhere.

The practical effect is the destruction of the great nations, of America and Europe, the products of Christendom. No nation can survive extended sexual anarchy: the newborn Soviet Union flirted with it during the 1920’s, the “NEP” period, but quickly dropped it within a decade when its destructive force became apparent. The nation depends on the family, of father-mother-child in permanent bonded relationship, and all sexual anarchy, from divorce, to fornication, to adultery, to sodomy, to “trans-sexual” (rebranded as “transgender”) has the effect of destroying that bonded relationship. A virus that destroys the cells on which the body depends destroys the body itself. Thus, sexual anarchy IS an existential threat to any nation that tolerates it. And some in Russia do now see from what has been happening in the West that that is so, and so, the Russian opposition to it is preventing strong lobbies for the alphabet soup people (LGBTQXYZPBN...) to form. That’s part of the mix that is also leading towards totalitarianism in Russia again. It’s varying mixes of good and evil on both sides. That’s why I can’t buy into the “one side good, other side bad” view. Both sides are engaged in existential destruction. The violence should stop. The only hope of stopping it is through diplomacy. Labeling the other side as evil and calling for arms is guaranteed to escalate. Recognizing that the other side has legitimate issues is the only way out.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Rus is 100% dead on….this is all lose-lose. A crippled, crushed, anemic Russian Church is NOT good for global Orthodoxy, yet Putin’s invasion isn’t either. While Navalny is likely a much nicer, more democratic chap, he’s pro LGBT and very Western. I don’t want to see Ukraine in ashes, but I don’t want to see it covered in pride parades either. No win.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Rus is 100% dead on….this is all lose-lose. A crippled, crushed, anemic Russian Church is NOT good for global Orthodoxy, yet Putin’s invasion isn’t either. While Navalny is likely a much nicer, more democratic chap, he’s pro LGBT and very Western. I don’t want to see Ukraine in ashes, but I don’t want to see it covered in pride parades either. No win.

true, but I think I would rather have a Ukraine with pride flags than as a smoldering ash heap. especially as an American since we’d be toast (especially this month).

 

[archer75]

Ukraine is not fighting for LBGT whatever. It is fighting to survive, not to have its children raped, killed, and tossed in a heap and maybe burned.

As has already happened.

Rus, you almost make it sound like this isn't sin, like only the trans cult is sin. I know you don't believe that and am not claiming you do.

There is some Russian support for the war because the country has been, effectively, Nazified during Putin's reign. There was support for Hitler, too. And Stalin.

Putin's regime is like the trans cult: rich people completely off their rockers, visibly possessed by passions so perverted that they cannot even be imagined. Putin has hijacked reasonable concerns, but is not fighting against evil. He is fighting FOR evil, INCLUDING the kind promoted by the LBGT+ princes. He just has a different vocab set to promote compliance.

What do you think goes on in those palaces, rus? The ones built on money stolen from Russians over the course of decades? Just a bunch of cute sexual morality?

Edit: to clarify: of course there is a bunch of foul sinful evil garbage being promoted in the US right now. That doesn't legitimize rape, murder, bombing civilians or churches. Those things are evil. Ukraine is an independent country and gets to make its own mistakes and handle its own problems.

If Putin (or anyone) doesn't like it, they should have not let the Soviet Union collapse.

And that's really what this is about. A man (maybe a few) who is so empty, empty even of himself, that he feels he cannot exist unless he is attached to...a "great" secular power. Ukraine's very existence is an offense to him.

If you really think Putin cares about Ru Paul or any of that other nonsense, I believe you are deeply mistaken. His buddies live in palaces where they engage in any sin they want. The Russian church, as you yourself have noted, is not exactly doing well with its deep "connections" to the criminal regime in power there.

You say "the violence must stop." I agree. Russia's forces are the ones doing it. Neither Biden nor Johnson nor Zelensky is ordering the endless bombings. Ukraine needs to handle Ukraine's problems. Russia needs to handle Russia's problems.

Russia's main problem, right now and probably for the next hundred years at least, is its attempted genocide of the residents of an independent country.

As if that wasn't enough, Putin has (possibly permanently) crippled the standing of the ROC, likely causing more schism. What do you think people in the ROCOR in the West are thinking right now? Conservative people who love what the Russian church has preserved, who love her saints, and are trying? When they see what is happening in the MP, as you yourself have noted on this board: the removal or punishment of priests who say that murder is wrong?

Some of them are thinking "Maybe we should talk to a Greek bishop...or the Antiochians...or the OCA."

This war is in no way intended to strengthen or defend the Church. Or morality. Neither can it have that effect.

It has dealt a severe blow to Orthodox witness, with effects that will outlast the lifespan of anyone now on this board, and even the lifespan of their children.

It is possible that, when the smoke clears and the regime falls, the Russian church will simply disintegrate as an organization, if the new powers decide that it is too compromised to bother financially supporting. There is no guarantee from Christ that any given jurisdiction will last forever.

And then what?

 

[archer75]

true, but I think I would rather have a Ukraine with pride flags than as a smoldering ash heap. especially as an American since we’d be toast (especially this month).

Agreed. Futher, the presence of a pride flag doesn't mean everyone there is condemned or is supporting that stuff. No one can work out their salvation on earth when they have been murdered.

The Russian flag is now, effectively, a pride flag: it represents unrepentant sin. (That doesn't mean everyone in Russia promotes unrepentant sin, of course.)

So with the Russian plan for Ukraine (to erase Ukrainian language, culture, identity and to absorb its into Russian cultural space, and to kill literally everyone who reists this plan), we know that, in such a scenario, Ukraine would be covered in pride flags: the flags of unrepentant sin defended by money and terror.