Were the things bloody Mary did barbaric?

[Resha Caner]

I will guess that they feel a need to put some distance between themselves and the majority of Protestants who reject the Real Presence, liturgical worship, the church calendar, and so on.

That is a big part of it. It's also an attempt to avoid being seen as innovators of theology, but rather adherents to the apostolic succession.

 

[Albion]

Yes, the best indications are Henry VIII died considering himself Catholic.

Not only that, but he WAS a Catholic to his dying day.

The Church of Rome considered him excommunicated, which as you know does not somehow revoke one's Catholic status, but it never declared him a heretic.

But he did sow the seeds that allowed Reformed theology to enter the Anglican Church

It is almost impossible to argue that line. Consider the Six Articles, for instance, which he issued late in his going, expressly in order to prevent that.

They reaffirm very strongly what might fairly be called the Roman beliefs and practices that any Protestant-leaning person would be MOST likely to disapprove of in RC teaching.

 

[Albion]

That is a big part of it. It's also an attempt to avoid being seen as innovators of theology, but rather adherents to the apostolic succession.

Hmm. Maybe so, but none of the Lutheran pastors who I referred to entertained any notions about that (Apostolic Succession). But this was before the ELCA made its move with ECUSA.

 

[Resha Caner]

It is almost impossible to argue that line. Consider the Six Articles, for instance, which he issued late in his going, expressly in order to prevent that.

I'm not saying he wanted it to happen that way, but his theology got tangled up with his political ambitions. IIRC, my information on his Reformed seed-sowing comes from Ryan Reeves. I believe he argues that trying to walk a fine line between opposing the Pope and denying Luther made it difficult for him. As a result, he turned to advisers who favored Reformed theology and allowed them to use Reformed sources for things like the Authorized Bible.

 

[Resha Caner]

Hmm. Maybe so, but none of the Lutheran pastors who I referred to entertained any notions about that (Apostolic Succession). But this was before the ELCA made its move with ECUSA.

My apologies. My phrasing was misleading. I referred to the apostolic succession only in the sense that Lutherans refer to is as a "valuable symbol of continuity with the past" and will also talk of "preaching and teaching so as to carry on the ministry of the apostles". The terminology can become a stumbling block here, as Lutherans will admit to the necessity of tradition in exegesis but don't want to raise it to the level of Catholics and Orthodox who capitalize the word and come near to placing Tradition on the same level as Scripture.

 

[JackRT]

Interestingly enough, the Orthodox regard the Catholics as Protestant.

 

[Lost4words]

Interestingly enough, the Orthodox regard the Catholics as Protestant.

Never heard of that

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I certainly havent heard that!

 

[ChicanaRose]

Noteworthy for it's barbarism is what she did to Margaret Clitherow. Look that one up.

That story is disturbing. It's like she had to choose between protecting her three children and her baby in the womb.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That story is disturbing. It's like she had to choose between protecting her three children and her baby in the womb.

She is a martyr for the faith.

And just to let you know it was not 'Bloody Mary' that did that but Bloody Elizabeth.

 

[Albion]

I'm not saying he wanted it to happen that way, but his theology got tangled up with his political ambitions.

His ambitions are famous, that's true, but there really is almost nothing about his theology that differed from the RCC except for the Papacy...and the consequence of his moves in that area was simply to return the church to the status it had for most of its history from ca. 100 to ca, 1500 AD. Even the controversial confiscation of the monasteries was not a matter of doctrine.

It really was more a matter of the influences that played upon Edward VI and Elizabeth.

 

[Albion]

She is a martyr for the faith.

And just to let you know it was not 'Bloody Mary' that did that but Bloody Elizabeth.

Her nickname is "Good Queen Bess." You got Mary's correct.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Never heard of that

Depending on which Orthodox you talk to our baptisms are nothing at all. We Catholics do accept the baptisms of the Orthodox and of Protestants

 

[Albion]

My apologies. My phrasing was misleading. I referred to the apostolic succession only in the sense that Lutherans refer to is as a "valuable symbol of continuity with the past" and will also talk of "preaching and teaching so as to carry on the ministry of the apostles".

Ah. Thank you. Yes, I recognize that as true now that you have commented further.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Her nickname is "Good Queen Bess." You got Mary's correct.

Call her what you want.

 

[Resha Caner]

It really was more a matter of the influences that played upon Edward VI and Elizabeth.

An interesting difference of opinion.

 

[charsan]

Was it really right of bloody Mary to burn tons of Protestants at the stake just for the sole purpose of restoring Catholicism to England?

Sure, why not.

 

[JackRT]

Her nickname is "Good Queen Bess." You got Mary's correct.

Speaking of nicknames, when James VI of Scotland became James I of England the joke in the streets was "First we had King Elizabeth and now we have Queen James."

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

All the Tudors had blood on their hands. I don't understand why Mary is considered particularly ruthless when compared to her Father who executed anyone he didn't like , both Catholic and Protestant. Her sister also had English Catholics executed after the Pope released them from obedience to her. People sort of Ignore those executions and justify the reign of Henry and Elizabeth based on their other actions. Mary's main fault lies elsewhere.

I think by the end of Mary's reign England was far too gone by that point to ever return to Catholicism I suspect. Her marriage to the King of Spain didn't help her in the eyes of the people and her lack of issue would have been seen as particularly damaging. Had she married locally and had some children earlier she could have secured a Catholic succession and maintained the Catholic Church in England, maybe? Had she lived longer perhaps she could have had a more effective reign.

I suppose I feel sorry for Mary. She doesn't appear to have been particularly prepared to be Queen and likely never expected it. Her own Father had her acknowledge herself as a bastard and treated her Mother horribly and dragged the entire nation away from the faith she had been brought up in. Should we be surprised at her lack of sympathy towards the Protestantism had destroyed part of her life?

To be accurate HenryVIII lived and died a Catholic, he did two things, separated the Church in England from the authority of the pope, but didn't change any teachings and authotised the use of the bible in english.

Can you really be considered a Catholic when you reject the authority of the Pope and make yourself the spiritual head of the Church? I'm going to say no.

 

[☦Marius☦]

For those of you that don't know, the English Queen later dubbed "bloody Mary" by the Protestants was Queen Mary I who lived in the 1500's and reigned from 1553-1558 so she only reigned for about 5 years. During her five year reign though she did many barbaric things like burning over 300 Protestants at the stake just for the sole reason of wanting to restore Catholicism to England. While many Christians will agree today that what she did was barbaric it wasn't quite that way in England at the time. The punishment for religious heresy back then was death and many of the religious English people were Catholics loyal to the pope at the time. So they viewed her as a "right" and "just" Queen.

However, was that really the case? Was it really right of bloody Mary to burn tons of Protestants at the stake just for the sole purpose of restoring Catholicism to England? Which, completely failed after her death in 1558. So those Protestants basically died for nothing. Because Protestantism has been the main religion of England ever since her Father King Henry VIII and Brother King Edward VI instituted it.

You can find a wikipedia article on the whole story here:

Mary I of England - Wikipedia

The English have always been particularly brutal since the Norman invasion destroyed the Anglo-Saxon church which was still in communion with the east.

The king Henry took all monastic properties within the isles for himself, destroying the ascetic backbone of the entire country.

There has always been rediculous amounts of violence between Catholics and Protestants. You should read about the Protestant revolts in Germany during the days of Luther. Truly horrifying things.

Depending on which Orthodox you talk to our baptisms are nothing at all. We Catholics do accept the baptisms of the Orthodox and of Protestants

The Church recognizes any trinitarian baptism as valid, we simply chrism. I also had the baptismal prayers of exorcism read over me beforehand just in case.

 

[Tolworth John]

All the Tudors had blood on their hands. I don't understand why Mary is considered particularly ruthless when compared to her Father who executed anyone he didn't like , both Catholic and Protestant. Her sister also had English Catholics executed after the Pope released them from obedience to her. People sort of Ignore those executions and justify the reign of Henry and Elizabeth based on their other actions. Mary's main fault lies elsewhere.


Can you really be considered a Catholic when you reject the authority of the Pope and make yourself the spiritual head of the Church? I'm going to say no.

Yes Elizabeth was with Cecils help ruthless in putting down those who were suspected of plotting against the throne and that is the main difference. RC had offically no loyalty to the Crown.

Henry. Initally there was no difference between his CoE and the RC church, changes did come in as english translations of the bible were put in to churches.
It was this that caused change as people discovered what Christianity is.