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Featured Were the angels lying?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    How did you know?

    Ok, so in Galatians 1:4 Paul refers to 'this present evil forever'. Check.

    Look, aion obviously has different meanings in different contexts, so it's pretty dodgy exegesis to try to pull together a few isolated scriptures and argue they point to eternal damnation, relying on idiomatic expressions.

    Well, if you trust that He saves, and He wins, and He's absolute, then salvation of all is the logical outcome. Don't you see that God would lose if souls are forever lost to death or hades? So He's going to fix that, but good.

    That a fact? What scriptures support this view?

    Here we go, hunting with the hounds and running with the hares.

    Sounds like you're really keen for some eternal torment to be meted out, there. Anyone in particular you've singled out for relishing the 'special treatment'? Mother-in-law perhaps, maybe your boss?
     
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    The so-called "victims" - WHO are they ? Lost sinners, or a few who were saved, or other ?
    When someone/ anyone/ has believed a heresy, because of "feelings", it is still their own choice, whether to turn to Yahuweh and repent or not to repent, right ?
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    It is not appointed in the New Testament Ekklesia for everyone to judge the ones like Ananias and Saphira - but the ones appointed within the Ekklesia to judge, to judge righteously as Yahuweh Says to, just as the set apart leaders in the New Testament who judged the various disobedient or rebellious or lying ones appropriately - i.e. with Righteous Judgement of Yahuweh (His Right and Perfect Judgment as Revealed to His appointed ones, in line with His Word and in Perfect Harmony with all Torah) ....
    Not everyone in an assembly should be 'judging' as the leaders are required to,
    but certainly they all (like the Bereans ) 'verify' or confirm or agree with the leaders judgments when appropriate with God's Word.
     
  4. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because you sound so much like the puppets of the Watchtower!

    Once again you jump from sanity to inanity in one leap. Ages to ages is an idiom to mean forever but aion means an age! Context determines whether it is a definite age or an indefinite like eternity! And Paul said this present evil age so he modified his statement to be a defined period (this present) C'mon man this is simple grammar!

    I don't care about logic! and who but you says god loses if a soul is lost. You wrongly put passages together to say everyone will be saved and then redefine aionios to mean a quality or whatever it was you defined it as instead of what it means- never ending!

    Jesus himself said that people will go to aionios punishment. If you want to play with logic and have anionios mean a completeness- then wouldn't all eternity be completeness as well as for the sense of time?

    As for us putting logic

    Proverbs 14:12
    There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    If Jesus declares ther shall be perpetual wailing and gnashing and they go to everlastin punishment and in the account of Lazarus and the rich man- they canot cross the barrier- that is all the logic I need.

    Jesus clearly defined it! And the Angels even cry out that his judgments are just and true!

    Another not so subtle ad-hominem? The tool of one who has lost. Maybe if you bothered to leaqrn the words used you wouldn't have to resort to these attacks and presumtious ideas to defend a false premise!
     
  5. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Correct! I can judge false teachings and we are called in patience (I am not real great in that) teach them the truth in the hopes they may escape the snares of teh devil.

    As for within the church- it is church leaders who have the matthew 18 authority to hand one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so the soul will be saved! If I were these peoples pastor I would deal with pastoral authority- but I am not so I just tell them they are wrong, try to show them the truth and hope and pray God opens their eyes to see the errors that have them ensnared!
     
  6. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well if they are trusting in Christ alone to save them based on His death and physical resurrection, they are brethren no matter what kind of other heresy they have been ensnared in and we must treat them as such according as the Scriptures instruct us to deal with them. If they are not trusting Christ- they are lost!
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [​IMG]

    The five qualifications for "everlasting punishment/aionios kolasis" according to the Master of Reconciliation =

    I was hungry and you gave me no meal,

    I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

    I was homeless and you gave me no bed,

    I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,

    Sick and in prison, and you never visited.
     
  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “Of all the arguments on this question, the one which appears to me the most absolutely and hopelessly futile, is the one in which so many seem to rest with entire content; viz. that "eternal or aeonian life" must mean endless life, and therefore that “aeonian chastisement” must mean “endless chastisement.”

    This battered and aged argument, . . . if it had possessed a particle of cogency, would not have been set aside as entirely valueless by such minds as those of Origen and the two Gregories in ancient days, nor by multitudes in the days of St. Augustine and St. Jerome, nor by the most brilliant thinker among the schoolmen, nor by many of our greatest living divines . . . . No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore “indefinite,” since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense “spiritual,” “pertaining to the unseen world,” “an attribute of that which is above and beyond time,” an attribute expressive not of duration but of quality. Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word “endless” into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning? And as for the argument that the redeemed would thus lose their promised bliss, it is at once so unscriptural and so selfish that, after what Mr. Cox and others have said of it, one may hope that no one will ever be able to use it again without a blush. I cannot here diverge into a discussion with Bishop Wordsworth and Canon Ryle, whose sermons need some adversaria rather longer than I can here devote to them; but as they both dwell on the fact that people who spoke Greek interpreted aionios to mean endless, I reply that some of the greatest masters of Greek, both in classical times and among the Fathers, saw quite clearly that, though the word might connote endlessness by being attributively added to endless things, it had in itself no such meaning. I cannot conceive how any candid mind can deny the force of these considerations. If even Origenists would freely speak of future punishment as aionios but never as ateleutetos [without end] –– if, as even these papers have shown, Plato uses the word as the antithesis of endlessness –– if St. Gregory of Nyssa uses it as the epithet of “an interval”–– if, as though to leave this Augustinian argument without the faintest shadow of a foundation, there are absolutely two passages of Scripture (Hab.3:6 and Rom.16:25,26) where the very word occurs in two consecutive clauses, and is, in the second of the two clauses, applied to God, and yet is, in the first of the two clauses, applied to things which are temporary or terminated –– what shall be said of disputants who still enlist the controversial services of a phantom which has been so often laid in the tomb from which it ought never again to emerge? How is it that not one out of the scores of writers who have animadverted on my book have so much as noticed the very remarkable fact to which I have called attention, that those who followed Origen in holding out a possible hope beyond the grave founded their argument for the terminability of torments on the acknowledged sense of this very word, and on the fact that other words and phrases which do unmistakably mean endless are used of the duration of good, but are never used of the duration of evil?” -F.W. Farrar

    In His book “God’s Methods with Man” the Rev. G. Campbell Morgan says this about the word “eternal”: “Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible.” -G. Campbell Morgan
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    With or without all those 'arguments', futile , vain, or otherwise,
    Yahuweh will not go against His Word, indeed He cannot go against His Word,
    and
    thus when someone evil dies, they go where Yahuweh Says they go, later to be thrown into the lake of fire, and cannot ever in any way escape eternal judgment, for Yahuweh will not change His Word.
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Plan of God is perfect and will require no changes!

    [​IMG]

    “It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance–the forgiveness of our offences–so abundant was God’s grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it–the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you…”

    Purpose = prothesis =

    The proposed end of Father.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  11. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    JWs are annihilationists, do try to get your facts straight. JW insults seem to be the lowest common denominator of Christian personal attacks. But I don't mind, I have a friend who's a JW as a matter of fact.

    Ah yes, but not the 'olams' version. Keep in mind that the Greek is already a translation from Aramaic or Hebrew or whatever the spoken language was then.

    Ages and ages, longtemps. Or if you like, you can have 'forever', I'll say it's classic idiomatic hyperbolic prophetic rhetoric. Your problem is bigger than that - you have to cobble together a doctrine of eternal damnation out of a few isolated verses and prejudicial translations, and make God a LIAR in order to force that outcome. Yahushua cannot be the omega if the last judgment is damnation. Salvation is at the end, not damnation.

    Exactly, the way of eternal damnation is death and despair - obviously. The way of salvation leads to life and hope. If you reject logos, then at least follow the narrative and the recurring patterns. With God all things work together for the good. It's uplifting, creation will be restored in Christ.

    Even if that parable is to be taken literally, Rev 20:14 teaches that hell gives up the dead that's in it, which would include the rich man. And you say he's only plucked from hell to be consigned to a worse fate?! That may be your 'god', but sorry it wouldn't be the God of love, light, salvation, restoration, righteousness, holiness, faith, hope, beauty, truth and wisdom. Quite the opposite.

    I'm suggesting that you conduct some self-examination. I sometimes wish damnation on ppl, which is no different to cursing them, and is a very bad sin. Fortunately Jesus helps me realise they are just afflicted and struggling under their burdens too. So don't judge, have pity. 'Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.' And we're to forgive endlessly and to love our enemies.
     
  12. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Only for those who don’t make Jesus of Nazareth, the Risen High Priest, first in their lives :hibiscus:
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Shrewd: The Master of Reconciliation, the Lord Lesous, loses nothing! Not leftover pieces of fish and bread, and most assuredly every last broken and bruised sinner for whom He is the Mercy Seat.

    "Salvation is at the end, not damnation."
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

    Ex= The Source

    Di= The Agent

    Eiv= The Goal

    The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

    Romans 11:36

    ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

    **** It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

    The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

    The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

    In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
     
  15. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Wisdom’s child Supporter

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    Sounds like lots of R&R :sleep:
     
  16. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Ah but my friend, you're not on board with the Damnationist Dictionary. 'Ta panta' only means 'the elect'...in the time of which the prophets spoke concerning restoration of just a select few things, and glorification of those who consider themselves most deserving. It's going to be a rather modest affair really, only the most arrogant are allowed in. Damnation is the omega for the many.

    That imho is the elitist supremacist dunderheaded version of the Christian hope that undermines the gospel message and slanders the holy name of the Most High. Leaven of Pharisees par excellence.
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [​IMG]

    I have zero idea why you are making such a dunderhead post. If you think for a nano-second our Father is leading His creation to R. & R. you are sadly mistaken!

    "Good souls many will one day be horrified at the things they may now believe of God...they can make little progress in the knowledge of God while holding evil things true of Him. -George MacDonal
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear man from down under: the "supremacist dunderheaded version" has been the standard for creatures who have never entered into the Holy of holies and fallen before His glory. Damnation is not even in the koine, judgement yes, damnation no!

    The final segments of the Glory One are in stages of glory all culminating in greater and greater glory in the One who cannot be defined.

    He is exceedingly abundantly beyond all we can ask or even think!
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  19. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well I do not think that either anymore than believing woman are saved by chidbirth!

    Pulling texts out of context make them pretexts. YOu make yourself look like a JW by making silly arguments like this!
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Noli: I find no Scripture "silly", in or out of context! The fact is the ONLY passage of Scripture using the words "everlasting punishment" is this parable of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Aionios kolasis in context ? What translation do you want to pursue?

    Matthew 25 - Bible Verses by Comparison, Read Verses Using All Translations Side by Side - Online Bible Study Tools

    The five qualifications for "everlasting punishment/aionios kolasis" according to the Master of Reconciliation =

    I was hungry and you gave me no meal,

    I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

    I was homeless and you gave me no bed,

    I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,

    Sick and in prison, and you never visited.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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