LDS Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

BigDaddy4

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Book of Mormon Student Manual Chapter 4: 1 Nephi 12–15

Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles defined the great and abominable church: “The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all … organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137–38).

One commentator explained that the great and abominable church consists of more than one entity:

“Actually, no single known historical church, denomination, or set of believers meets all the requirements for the great and abominable church: it must have formed among the Gentiles; it must have edited and controlled the distribution of the scriptures; it must have slain the Saints of God, including the Apostles and prophets; it must be in league with civil governments and use their police power to enforce its religious views; it must have dominion over all the earth; it must pursue great wealth and sexual immorality; and it must last until close to the end of the world. No single denomination or system of beliefs fits the entire description. Rather, the role of Babylon has been played by many different agencies, ideologies, and churches in many different times. …

“Can we, then, identify the historical agency that acted as the great and abominable church in earliest Christianity? Such an agent would have had its origins in the second half of the first century and would have done much of its work by the middle of the second century.

“This period might be called the blind spot in Christian history, for it is here that the fewest primary historical sources have been preserved. We have good sources for New Testament Christianity; then the lights go out, so to speak, and we hear the muffled sounds of a great struggle. When the lights come on again a hundred or so years later, we find that someone has rearranged all the furniture and Christianity has become something very different from what it was in the beginning” (Stephen E. Robinson, “Warring against the Saints of God,” Ensign, Jan. 1988, 38–39).

Once again, no definitive proof offered. Just a bunch of assumptions (it must have...) and blind guesses. Repetition without supporting details does not make it true. There is no historical evidence for the claims the lds church makes. In reality, it is quite the opposite, since several churches can trace back to the Apostles, as some posters on here have demonstrated.

But, maybe McConkie and the Ensign have it wrong, since they are not "official" doctrininal sources. But, yet they appear in an official lds student manual, provided on the official website....
 
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Peter1000

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I don't know how that relates to the line of questioning I was responding to, but no. The "branches" are seperated into those who remain in the vine (in Jesus) and bear fruit, and those who do not remain in the vine and bear no fruit. Those wither and die and get tossed into the fire.

So, in regards to sheep, the sheep would be the branches who remain in the vine, while the goats would be those who don't remain in the vine.

More importantly and contrary to lds teaching, a branch who has left the vine, withered, and died, cannot be reattached to the vine; it is destroyed. IOW, one has a choice in this life and this life only, to remain in the vine. No second chances in the after life.

That is contrary to your belief in OSAS. If you are a branch, you were led to Jesus by God, and are saved, right? If a branch (a saved person) leaves the vine and is destroyed, does that interrupt OSAS?

If there is no second chance in the after life, why did Jesus go into the spirit prison between the time he died and the time he was resurrected?
 
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BigDaddy4

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That is contrary to your belief in OSAS. If you are a branch, you were led to Jesus by God, and are saved, right? If a branch (a saved person) leaves the vine and is destroyed, does that interrupt OSAS?

If there is no second chance in the after life, why did Jesus go into the spirit prison between the time he died and the time he was resurrected?
I don't recall stating a belief in OSAS, but thanks for that assumption.

Jesus is talking to his disciples. Did all his disciples remain in him? Judas anyone? See also John 6:60-71.

As for spirit prison, 1 Peter 3:19-20 says
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

So it was NOT to make new disciples or preach the Gospel to those who have never heard of Christ, as the lds teaches. These "spirits" in prison have been there since before Noah and the ark.

Who they are specifically is not revealed in Scripture. But one thing to think about is the Bible never refers to human beings specifically as "spirits". So why would the lds think that applies now? Making up a false doctrine to comfort Joseph Smith losing his brother is just bad theology.
 
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he-man

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Book of Mormon Student Manual Chapter 4: 1 Nephi 12–15

Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles defined the great and abominable church: “The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all … organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137–38). in the second half of the first century and would have done much of its work by the middle of the second century.
“This period might be called the blind spot in Christian history, for it is here that the fewest primary historical sources have been preserved. We have good sources for New Testament Christianity; then the lights go out, so to speak, and we hear the muffled sounds of a great struggle. There is no historical evidence for the claims the lds church makes.
To appear on a website is not a source of authority. First you have to examine all the manuscripts and compare their reliability. When they were written and by whom and the bad part is there were many revisions which attempted to clarify what was being said, however sometimes magnifying errors more grossly. The greatest error is of Daniel and the lions den and is a complete fabrication. The same is true of Bel and the dragon, a fabrication. They were inserted into the original and historically it is accepted by most scholars. The substitution of Persians, Greeks and others of a dualistic God and bad devils and as you say did not enter in the scriptures until the second century and later. Devils and demons are not a part of the originals.
 
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Rescued One

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I don't recall stating a belief in OSAS, but thanks for that assumption.

Jesus is talking to his disciples. Did all his disciples remain in him? Judas anyone? See also John 6:60-71.

As for spirit prison, 1 Peter 3:19-20 says
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

So it was NOT to make new disciples or preach the Gospel to those who have never heard of Christ, as the lds teaches. These "spirits" in prison have been there since before Noah and the ark.

Who they are specifically is not revealed in Scripture. But one thing to think about is the Bible never refers to human beings specifically as "spirits". So why would the lds think that applies now? Making up a false doctrine to comfort Joseph Smith losing his brother is just bad theology.

church
In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning. Nor is this word ever used to denote the inhabitants of a country united in the same profession, as when we say the "Church of England," the "Church of Scotland," etc.

We find the word ecclesia used in the following senses in the New Testament:

  • A few Christians associated together in observing the ordinances of the gospel are an ecclesia ( Romans 16:5 ; Colossians 4:15 ).
  • All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church ( Acts 13:1 ); so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" ( 1 Corinthians 1:2 ), "the church at Jerusalem" ( Acts 8:1 ), "the church of Ephesus" ( Revelation 2:1 ), etc.

  • All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church ( Acts 13:1 ); so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" ( 1 Corinthians 1:2 ), "the church at Jerusalem" ( Acts 8:1 ), "the church of Ephesus" ( Revelation 2:1 ), etc.
  • The whole body of professing Christians throughout the world ( 1 Corinthians 15:9 ; Galatians 1:13 ;Matthew 16:18 ) are the church of Christ.
    The church visible "consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion, together with their children." It is called "visible" because its members are known and its assemblies are public. Here there is a mixture of "wheat and chaff," of saints and sinners. "God has commanded his people to organize themselves into distinct visible ecclesiastical communities, with constitutions, laws, and officers, badges, ordinances, and discipline, for the great purpose of giving visibility to his kingdom, of making known the gospel of that kingdom, and of gathering in all its elect subjects. Each one of these distinct organized communities which is faithful to the great King is an integral part of the visible church, and all together constitute the catholic or universal visible church." A credible profession of the true religion constitutes a person a member of this church. This is "the kingdom of heaven," whose character and progress are set forth in the parables recorded in Matthew 13 ...
    Church Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
  • All churches that are not God's only true church are of the devil. Only in the twentieth century did Mormons try to change the meaning of those verses. I talked about it with the senior companion of the missionaries that visited me and he agreed that my interpretation is true. I thanked him for being honest!
  • Joseph Smith claimed that he asked God which church he should join.
  • 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

    20 He again forbade me to join with any of them;
  • None of them are the Church of the Lamb of God according to the Book of Mormon.
 
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Rescued One

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The original question was; Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

The great and abominable is defined as any person or organization which fights against Jesus.

Don't you think Joseph Smith knew what he was telling his scribe to write?

Then he claimed further revelation:
“… to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually.” (D&C 1:30.)

Darkness is of Satan.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Ephesians 5
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

When asked "Will everyone be damned, but Mormons?" Joseph Smith replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119
 
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he-man

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church
In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning. Nor is this word ever used to denote the inhabitants of a country united in the same profession, as when we say the "Church of England," the "Church of Scotland," etc.

We find the word ecclesia used in the following senses in the New Testament:

  • A few Christians associated together in observing the ordinances of the gospel are an ecclesia ( Romans 16:5 ; Colossians 4:15 ).
  • All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church ( Acts 13:1 ); so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" ( 1 Corinthians 1:2 ), "the church at Jerusalem" ( Acts 8:1 ), "the church of Ephesus" ( Revelation 2:1 ), etc.
  • All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church ( Acts 13:1 ); so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" ( 1 Corinthians 1:2 ), "the church at Jerusalem" ( Acts 8:1 ), "the church of Ephesus" ( Revelation 2:1 ), etc.
  • The whole body of professing Christians throughout the world ( 1 Corinthians 15:9 ; Galatians 1:13 ;Matthew 16:18 ) are the church of Christ.
    The church visible "consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion, together with their children." It is called "visible" because its members are known and its assemblies are public. Here there is a mixture of "wheat and chaff," of saints and sinners. "God has commanded his people to organize themselves into distinct visible ecclesiastical communities, with constitutions, laws, and officers, badges, ordinances, and discipline, for the great purpose of giving visibility to his kingdom, of making known the gospel of that kingdom, and of gathering in all its elect subjects. Each one of these distinct organized communities which is faithful to the great King is an integral part of the visible church, and all together constitute the catholic or universal visible church." A credible profession of the true religion constitutes a person a member of this church. This is "the kingdom of heaven," whose character and progress are set forth in the parables recorded in Matthew 13 ...
    Church Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
  • All churches that are not God's only true church are of the devil. Only in the twentieth century did Mormons try to change the meaning of those verses. I talked about it with the senior companion of the missionaries that visited me and he agreed that my interpretation is true. I thanked him for being honest!
  • Joseph Smith claimed that he asked God which church he should join.
  • 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

    20 He again forbade me to join with any of them;
  • None of them are the Church of the Lamb of God according to the Book of Mormon.
Joseph Smith was a con artist. His explanation of "familiar spirits" displays his ignorance of Hebrew which he claimed to know. The Hebrew for familiar spirits is in Hebrew ob אדנ and means a neocromancer, a ventriloquist which called up voices fom the dead by throwing her disguised voice at the earth of tombs, kashaph witch, soothsayer. Much like the Witch of Endor. You should be aware the witchcraft is strictly forbidden in the scriptures but I guess Joseph Smith was not intelligent enough to figure it out.
 
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Peter1000

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Joseph Smith was a con artist. His explanation of "familiar spirits" displays his ignorance of Hebrew which he claimed to know. The Hebrew for familiar spirits is in Hebrew ob and means a neocromancer, a ventriloquist which called up voices fom the dead by throwing her disguised voice at the earth of tombs, witch, soothsayer. Much like the Witch of Endor. You should be aware the witchcraft is forbidden in the scriptures but I guess Joseph Smith was not intelligent enough to figure it out.
So JS is a con artist because he did not demonstrate a minutea knowledge of the words 'familiar spirits'. Not exactly a true test of intelligence.

He did not claim to know Hebrew well, he only had a few lessons on Hebrew, so he was certainly not fluent.
 
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he-man

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So JS is a con artist because he did not demonstrate a minutea knowledge of the words 'familiar spirits'. Not exactly a true test of intelligence. He did not claim to know Hebrew well, he only had a few lessons on Hebrew, so he was certainly not fluent.
He claimed all scriptures had been revealed to him by the angel. Guess the angel had it wrong too! Smith says Isaiah 29:4 proves the divinity of the Book of Mormon plates buried in Palmyrah, N.Y. as one that hath a familar spirit. Simith ignores the last part that also says that for your abomination ..you shall be visited with the flame of devouring fire. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 says familar spirits are an abomination. Lexiticus 20:27 says those who practice the witchcraft of familarspirits shaa be put to death. Bye Bye Joseph Smith!
 
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Peter1000

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He claime all scriptures had been revealed to him by the angel. Guess the angel had it wrong too!
Would you be willing to give me a reference for that statement by JS? Specifically that "all scriptures had been revealed to him by the angel".
Thank you.
 
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he-man

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Would you be willing to give me a reference for that statement by JS? Specifically that "all scriptures had been revealed to him by the angel".
Thank you.
You jumped the gun. I was not finished and if you go back and read the rest you will se the scripture: Isaiah 29:4; Deuteronomy 18:9-12; Leviticus 20:27
 
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Jane_Doe

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Actual Mormon here, clarifying actual Mormon beliefs--

He claimed all scriptures had been revealed to him by the angel.
No. I'm guessing that you a mixing things up with Islam, which claim the Quran was dictated by the Angel Gabriel. LDS do not believe that an angel sat their and recited a bunch of things for Joseph Smith to right down. Rather, it is believed that the Book of Mormon was translated via the power of God, from inscribed plates. Later revelations (the Doctrine and Covenants) were received directly, just like the Bible.

I respect that you don't agree with LDS beliefs, I'm just clarifying what those actual beliefs are.
 
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he-man

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Actual Mormon here, clarifying actual Mormon beliefs--No. I'm guessing that you a mixing things up with Islam, which claim the Quran was dictated by the Angel Gabriel. LDS do not believe that an angel sat their and recited a bunch of things for Joseph Smith to right down. Rather, it is believed that the Book of Mormon was translated via the power of God, from inscribed plates. Later revelations (the Doctrine and Covenants) were received directly, just like the Bible. I respect that you don't agree with LDS beliefs, I'm just clarifying what those actual beliefs are.
Smith saw this record as one coming forth as the voice of one that has a familar spirit. Smith said "The Book of Mormon truly has a familar spirit for it contains the words of the prophets of the God of Israel". Claimed to be the source of the plates of the BOM Isaiah 29:4 ends by saying You shall be visited with the flame of devouring fire.
Deuteronomy 18:9-12 and Leviticus 20:27
 
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Jane_Doe

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Smith saw this record as one coming forth as the voice of one tht has a familar spirit. Smith said "The Book of Mormon truly has a familar spirit for it contains the words of the prophets of the God of Israel". Claimed to be the source of the plates of the BOM Isaiah 29:4 ends by saying You shall be visited with the flame of devouring fire.
Deuteronomy 18:9-12 and Leviticus 20:27
You're welcome to believe whatever you want about familiar spirits.

I was just clarifying that your statement "He claimed all scriptures had been revealed to him by the angel" was incorrect.
 
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Rescued One

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The original question was; Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

The great and abominable is defined as any person or organization which fights against Jesus.

Furthermore, a church is not a person. If you find what the Book of Mormon says distasteful, that doesn't give you or anyone else license to redefine the word church to person. The word church refers to religious adherents, not to only one person and not to a secular organization. For instance, an atheist may fight against Jesus, but he is not a church.

Did you understand the question and couldn't answer it?
 
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Joseph Smith was a con artist. His explanation of "familiar spirits" displays his ignorance of Hebrew which he claimed to know. The Hebrew for familiar spirits is in Hebrew ob אדנ and means a neocromancer, a ventriloquist which called up voices fom the dead by throwing her disguised voice at the earth of tombs, kashaph witch, soothsayer. Much like the Witch of Endor. You should be aware the witchcraft is strictly forbidden in the scriptures but I guess Joseph Smith was not intelligent enough to figure it out.

I am aware of the forbidden practices of conjuring up evil spirits and that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.
 
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he-man

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You're welcome to believe whatever you want about familiar spirits.

I was just clarifying that your statement "He claimed all scriptures had been revealed to him by the angel" was incorrect.
Thank you, it must have been Nephi? However JS says incorrectly, that Elias was an unknown person because JS did not even understand Greek. Elias is the Greek formed name for Elijah and they are the same person. JS mistakenly says they made a separate appearance in the vision on D&C 110. Just another instance of unintelligent gibberish. You also addressed my other statements on familiar spirits. Do you agree that JS is missing the mark and is subject to being stoned to death?
 
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“… to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness,

Simith ignores the last part that also says that for your abomination ..you shall be visited with the flame of devouring fire

Joseph was referring to both of these issues in Isa 29

2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, (happened in 70 ad and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Not talking about conjuring up ghost here but speaking ‘as’ something which sounds familiar, a familiar voice, an echo out of the dust.

7 ¶ And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
9 ¶ Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

The time would come where there would be no prophets men would become ignorant to the things of God and teach mankind to fear God, as Amos said chapter 8

11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

And Paul warned
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed

And in 2 Tim 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

But Isa 29 gives us hope

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
18 ¶ And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

The learned man was a Professor Anthon to whom Martin Harris went to see if he was being duped. Harris gave Anthon some characters which were Anthon describes as being in vertical rows. Harris said that Anthon had given him a certificate that they were authentic but once he learned about an angel he grabbed it back and said I can not read a sealed book. This was enough to make Harris dedicated his life to helping Joseph translate.

The unlearned man was of course Joseph Smith yet the book is produced and the deaf hear and the blind see out of obscurity and darkness. Meaning those who were wondering around without knowledge will be able to once again learn the things of God

Now back to the familiar spirit I believe part of this is talking about how ancient Hebrew writers had their way of writing in Chiasmus poetry. The Book of Mormon has that same pattern which we become accustom to in reading the Bible. It feels like scripture because it is written in the same pattern.
 
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