LDS Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

[fatboys]

Nothing washes away the sinful state of those who died in their sins. The wages of sin is death --- they earned spiritual death.

Baptism is our roomies to God at we will be obedient and endure to the by taking upon ourselves his name and by obeying his coomandments and to always remember him. The washing away of sins is symbolic as we go through the repentance process before we were baptized.

 

[fatboys]

Baptism is our roomies to God at we will be obedient and endure to the by taking upon ourselves his name and by obeying his coomandments and to always remember him. The washing away of sins is symbolic as we go through the repentance process before we were baptized.

Mormons haven't given us a verse that says taking the sacrament grants anyone forgiveness of sins. There is no such verse.

The sacrament is our reminder of the promises we made at baptism. It is all part of the atonement which includes forgiveness of sins and transgressions. LDS know that as we partake of the sacrament we should be taking it worthily but repenting of our sins and transgressions. This puts us as clean as we were baptized. And so as go about our following week we commit sin and go through the the same process again and again until we become more perfected through obedience.
I copied this befor I sent it and I did not change a word. The mistakes are not mine.

 

[Rescued One]

The sacrament is our reminder of the promises we made at baptism. It is all part of the atonement which includes forgiveness of sins and transgressions. LDS know that as we partake of the sacrament we should be taking it worthily but repenting of our sins and transgressions. This puts us as clean as we were baptized. And so as go about our following week we commit sin and go through the the same process again and again until we become more perfected through obedience.
I copied this befor I sent it and I did not change a word. The mistakes are not mine.

What is so hard about providing scripture?

 

[Rescued One]

Baptism is our roomies to God at we will be obedient and endure to the by taking upon ourselves his name and by obeying his coomandments and to always remember him. The washing away of sins is symbolic as we go through the repentance process before we were baptized.

Nothing washes away the sinful state of those who died in their sins. The wages of sin is death --- they earned spiritual death.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Nothing washes away the sinful state of those who died in their sins. The wages of sin is death --- they earned spiritual death.

Phoebe: do you believe that anyone who's not heard of Christ is automatically sentenced to Hell?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Stancet]

I'm probably going to have to call it quits. Not that I haven't enjoyed learning, explaining and discussing, but I think I'm wandering into the realm of theological hair splitting. This is a bad thing if your debate becomes a heated argument (which I'm grateful it has not), but it's also a bad thing if it's distracting you, which I must confess it is.

But it has been good discussing baptism, and I honestly have nothing against any denomination that believes it is necessary. I am, however, trying to get a degree in Theology and spend more time on church related matters, so I'm going to thank everyone for this discussion and see you later, maybe on a different forum thread.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm probably going to have to call it quits. Not that I haven't enjoyed learning, explaining and discussing, but I think I'm wandering into the realm of theological hair splitting. This is a bad thing if your debate becomes a heated argument (which I'm grateful it has not), but it's also a bad thing if it's distracting you, which I must confess it is.

But it has been good discussing baptism, and I honestly have nothing against any denomination that believes it is necessary. I am, however, trying to get a degree in Theology and spend more time on church related matters, so I'm going to thank everyone for this discussion and see you later, maybe on a different forum thread.

It was a pleasure talking to you Stancet!

 

[Rescued One]

I'm probably going to have to call it quits. Not that I haven't enjoyed learning, explaining and discussing, but I think I'm wandering into the realm of theological hair splitting. This is a bad thing if your debate becomes a heated argument (which I'm grateful it has not), but it's also a bad thing if it's distracting you, which I must confess it is.

But it has been good discussing baptism, and I honestly have nothing against any denomination that believes it is necessary. I am, however, trying to get a degree in Theology and spend more time on church related matters, so I'm going to thank everyone for this discussion and see you later, maybe on a different forum thread.

God bless you!

 

[Peter1000]

I'm probably going to have to call it quits. Not that I haven't enjoyed learning, explaining and discussing, but I think I'm wandering into the realm of theological hair splitting. This is a bad thing if your debate becomes a heated argument (which I'm grateful it has not), but it's also a bad thing if it's distracting you, which I must confess it is.

But it has been good discussing baptism, and I honestly have nothing against any denomination that believes it is necessary. I am, however, trying to get a degree in Theology and spend more time on church related matters, so I'm going to thank everyone for this discussion and see you later, maybe on a different forum thread.

I wish you well too. I do have a suggestion though. You are bound to study the Holy Trinity. When this study takes place, notice the scriptures that are given to support the doctrine. Then come back to this forum and ask me to give you scriptures that do not support the doctrine, but instead support an entirely different doctrine. All from the bible.

Be true and to yourself and ask the hard questions.

I wish I could be with you, are you getting your degree online? One day I may do the same thing, but I won't be able to stand for the 'selected scripture' approach to the important doctrines that you will study.

God bless you and come back once in a while and say HI.

 

[Peter1000]

Our God, being omniscient, knows who He will save. He chooses our habitation and provides opportunites for those people to hear the gospel. "Other sheep I have."

2 Timothy 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Isaiah 40
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Concerning the Gentiles:

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There you go with your automatically saved doctrine. It's either God chooses to save you or God chooses to send you to hell. You either win or you lose, nothing is up to you, all is up to God because He is omniscient.

Read this scripture:
John 15:5
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Are the branches also his sheep?

 

[Peter1000]

Thank you for your comments Peter1000

I wonder if LDS are the only people who baptize for the dead; I know others PRAY for the dead.

I thought about Paul's words on it like -- a 1st century person became a Christian at a catacomb meeting, was arrested that night, died in the arena the next day, and had a baptism by proxy held by Christians who knew he had accepted Christ before death.

I never associated that "baptizing for the dead" in Paul's time with Sadducees, but I know Saducees did not believe in a resurrection

I don't know if there is any other people that baptize a person that has passed on.

But if you think about it, it is the perfect solution to the problem of not having even heard the name of Jesus during your lifetime, which billions of people were in that situation. Does God just cast them into hell because they were born into a country that knows not Jesus Christ? No, he makes provisions for them too.

All men will be given a chance to hear about Jesus Christ, and have a chance to feel the HS witness to them that he is the Christ. Many will believe, and now comes a crucial step in their salvation process. They will want to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS by immersion.

This is where the LDS church steps in and helps these people. They are baptized by proxy for and in behalf of these poeple who have not had the chance to be baptized.

Here is another crucial piece of this doctrine. An LDS person baptizes a person that has passed on. The person that has passed on has the free agency whether to accept this baptism or not. If that person believes in Jesus and wants to make that important step, then he/she accepts and the baptism is complete. If that person hears about Jesus and rejects, his/her baptism is rejected and will be of no force in the eternities to come. So there is no forcing anyone to accept. We do it, they accept or reject.

This is a tremendous work. This work turns our hearts to our fathers and they turn their hearts to us, and we work together to give all the people that have ever lived the opportunity to be baptized. This is why Elijah came to JS and Sidney Rigdon in the Kirkland temple in 1835. He brought with him the keys of turning the hearts of the father to their children and their children turning their hearts to the fathers. (see Malachi's prophecy in Malachi 4:5-6).

This work will be the center-piece of the millenium. Tie every person to their family tree all the way back to Adam, and then make sure all have heard the gospel and had a chance to accept or reject. And then give all person the opportunity to be baptized and to either accept or reject.

You start by finding your ancestors. Father/Mother/siblings Grandfather/Grandmother siblings,
Great Grandfather/Great Grandmother/siblings.......

Did they know Jesus Christ? Have they had an opportunity to be baptized?
This is what it means to turn your heart to your fathers. Their names may not have been said outloud for hundreds of years, and here you are finding their names and saying them outloud again.
They in turn, will help you to find their names and give you a spiritual experience that you may not have felt for a long time as you persue your past. This is what is called by Malachi, turning the heart of the fathers to their children.

Finally Malachi says that if we do not do this great work, the Lord will smite this earth with a curse. Think about it, if billions upon billions of people are lost to Jesus Christ because they have not heard his name or been baptized in his name, the earth will be a waste for billions upon billions and Christ's whole plan frustrated for those billions. Jesus does not want those billions to suffer in hell for eternity, so he has put forth a plan to save them too. Be a part of it.

 

[Peter1000]

1 Corinthians 15 is about resurrection of the dead, not about gaining salvation.

You don't think being resurrected is part of being saved? Think again. Being resurrected saves us from death.

Why are they baptized for the dead? Paul wasn't. There is no commandment for this.

Paul is telling us that people were 'baptizing people for the dead'. Why were they doing that work? Who put them up to it? Paul noted that these people did not believe in life after death, and so he asked the right question: if the dead do not rise (which they believed), then why do you baptize for the dead?
It is the perfect question, and it sheds light that in the time of Paul, people were baptizing people for the dead.

We do not know why they were, but we know that Elijah was sent from Jesus Christ with the keys of 'turning the heart of the children to the fathers, and the heart of the fathers to the children', which is part of the temple keys, and with these keys we were to start baptizing people who were dead. That's all we know, we have been commanded to do this great work and we will obey Jesus. Or he will come to this earth and smite it with a curse. So help out.

The Book of Mormon doesn't mention baptisms for the dead. Mormons only do baptisms for the dead in temple basements; non-Mormons and unworthy Mormons are not allowed to observe this. After death we cannot prepare to meet God according to
Alma 12:
24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.
and Alma 34:
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

'This life' includes the life on earth + the life between death and the resurrection. So 'this life' is from the minute you are born until the minute you are resurrected. Betwen birth and resurrection is the time to prepare to meet God, including accepting Jesus Christ, and having all the saving ordinances completed, furnished with all good works, so that you are whole and ready to meet God. Then by his grace he will save you from death and from spritual death in the KOG.[/QUOTE]

 

[Peter1000]

And no one knows for sure. Perhaps they mistakenly thought it would help those who had died. But we still have to remember that it's pretty pointless after death. The water doesn't wash away our sins; the blood of Christ does.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Read these 3 scriptures to see what washes away our sins:

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:4
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 scripture tells us that Jesus's blood is for the remission of sins.
2 scriptures tell us that baptism is for the remission of sins.

So what do we believe remits our sins, is it the blood of Jesus or is it baptism?

The answer is they both do, or the bible would not have Mark 1:4 or
Acts 2:38, it would only say Matthew 26:28 over and over and over, which is doesn't. So obey the bible.

And that goes for all men, alive or dead. The bible doesn't say, well, if you die before you get a chance to accept Jesus and get baptized in his name, you don't have to worry about being baptized, I will take care of you without having to be baptized. Find me the scripture that says that?

 

[BigDaddy4]

There you go with your automatically saved doctrine. It's either God chooses to save you or God chooses to send you to hell. You either win or you lose, nothing is up to you, all is up to God because He is omniscient.

Read this scripture:
John 15:5
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Are the branches also his sheep?

He's addressing believers and irrelevant to the point. God desires all to be saved, but knows many will not accept Jesus. Perhaps you should refrain from selective texting and instead read in context. John 15:2 says that he cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit and in vs. 4 that a "branch" must remain in him. People have choices and God, being all-knowing, knows who will and will not accept Him.

 

[Anto9us]

I don't understand everything about this, Peter1000, all I can say is:

"Go thou, in this might of yours, and deliver all Israel from the hand of Midian"

 

[withwonderingawe]

The original question was; Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

The great and abominable is defined as any person or organization which fights against Jesus.

One of the arguments I’ve heard was that after Christ died and during the period between then and the formation of the our Bible (around 150 ad or a little later) Jews began to remove any reference to them killing their Messiah or that would support Jesus being their Messiah.

On the road to Emmaus the men are questioning what was going on, Jesus had been killed yet women were claiming to have seen him. Jesus opens up the scriptures and says

“26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

What scriptures was he referring too?

I think I have found two examples of missing knowledge.

* There is a reference to Abraham’s writings in the Book of the Jubilee which dates sometime before 100 BC.

6. But he/Joseph did not surrender his soul, and he remembered the Lord and the words which Jacob, his father, used to read from amongst the words of Abraham, that no man should commit fornication with a woman (Joseph's Service with Potiphar; his Purity and Imprisonment (xxxix. 1-13; cf. Gen. xxxix.).

Now in John 8: 56 Jesus says “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”

So Abraham had a vision of Jesus, his coming and atonement which is not recorded in our Bibles. They use to have the writings of Abraham and now we don’t.

* In Hebrew 2 & 3 the writer is speaking of ancient Israel

“ So we see that they could not enter in (to his rest) because of unbelief….For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

So the good news of Christ atonement was preached to ancient Israel, Moses taught it just as Jesus referred to but we have no recorded of it.

That is a concept I have heard in discussions at church but did not realize it was actually Biblical.

We teach that the first time Moses went up to the mountain he received the same gospel of Christ and his atonement which is taught in the New Testament. However when he came down from the mount and found the golden calf he broke those stones. Then they were given the basic Ten Commandments, the lesser priesthood and the Law of daily Sacrifices.

 

[Peter1000]

He's addressing believers and irrelevant to the point. God desires all to be saved, but knows many will not accept Jesus. Perhaps you should refrain from selective texting and instead read in context. John 15:2 says that he cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit and in vs. 4 that a "branch" must remain in him. People have choices and God, being all-knowing, knows who will and will not accept Him.

Since Jesus is addressing believers, hence the branches are his believers, and so it is safe to call the branches his sheep.

So your answer to: are the branches his sheep, you would say 'yes'.
Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Peter1000]

I don't understand everything about this, Peter1000, all I can say is:

"Go thou, in this might of yours, and deliver all Israel from the hand of Midian"

I wish I were a modern day Gideon. Get a good LDS book and read about it. The Lord is a Genius. His plan is foolproof.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Since Jesus is addressing believers, hence the branches are his believers, and so it is safe to call the branches his sheep.

So your answer to: are the branches his sheep, you would say 'yes'.
Correct me if I am wrong.

I don't know how that relates to the line of questioning I was responding to, but no. The "branches" are seperated into those who remain in the vine (in Jesus) and bear fruit, and those who do not remain in the vine and bear no fruit. Those wither and die and get tossed into the fire.

So, in regards to sheep, the sheep would be the branches who remain in the vine, while the goats would be those who don't remain in the vine.

More importantly and contrary to lds teaching, a branch who has left the vine, withered, and died, cannot be reattached to the vine; it is destroyed. IOW, one has a choice in this life and this life only, to remain in the vine. No second chances in the after life.

 

[BigDaddy4]

ugh, double post