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LDS Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Old Lady, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    LDS believe that God is infinitely just. What is required for one person's salvation is the same required for everyone else (faith, repentance, baptism, etc). There are no exceptions or sliding scales, only complete uniform justice.

    Now some people, due to no fault of their own, will not have the opportunity to accept Christ or be baptized, or otherwise follow Him. Maybe they will never hear of name "Jesus" their entire life. What happens to these people?

    LDS believe that God, satisfying both infinite justice and infinite mercy, allows a time between a person's mortal death and their resurrection, that they may then hear about Christ, learn about His Gospel, and accept Him. Everyone gets the opportunity to hear about Christ- infinite justice and infinite mercy. They even have the opportunity to be baptized, done via proxy, and accepted by that person.
     
  2. Stancet

    Stancet Member

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    It is possible the Thief on the Cross could have been baptized by John the Baptist, but we don't know. We can only presume. But even if he was it still wouldn't have saved him. Some time later when he resorted to thievery and got sent to jail he would have been guilty of a mortal sin, which means he would have lost his salvation. And concerning his motives, the thief admitted he deserved the cross and made no effort to justify the reason behind his crimes.

    Now, I know you don't believe once-saved is always-saved, but I seem to conclude from your interpretations that you believe once-baptized is always-baptized. If not, the thief would have needed to repent, profess Jesus and then get baptized all over again in order to be saved once again while on the cross.

    And there is still more evidence that baptism isn't necessary, like in the account of Zaccaeus the tax collector. Luke 19:1-10

    He entered Jericho and was passing through. And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was rich. And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature. So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.” So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

    Now, presuming a lower class citizen like the thief was baptized would have been one thing, but Zacchaeus was definitely upper class. And he couldn't have been baptized, unless he was doing it in vain, because his genuine repentance didn't come until after Jesus visited his house. And if baptism had been necessary, Jesus would have told Zacchaeus in verse 9.

    But I will tell you what baptists believe is necessary for salvation. This next passage is about Paul when he was visiting the city of Ephesus to help them with their errors in teaching. Acts 19:1-7

    While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

    Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

    Notice, the water baptism of John the baptist did not help those believers in Ephesus. Paul described it as the outward sign of repentance. The baptism that is necessary for salvation is the receiving of the Holy Spirit, which Paul gave them when he laid his hands on them.

    Now, this is scripturally every reason I can think of why water baptism is not necessary for salvation, but you mentioned there was another point you wanted to make so I would like to know it very much.
     
  3. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
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    Seeking clarification:
    Stancet, I thought you believed in OSAS. Why then are you proposing the thief might have lost his salvation?

    Note: LDS do not divide sins between mortal or not.
    Correct. Also, baptism does not guarantee salvation.
    No. All people need to continually repent after baptism- it's a continual walk with Christ, not a one time check box.
     
  4. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    In Mormonism, baptism by one with authority is required, but doesn't save. It represents your promise to keep the commandments.

    LDS Requirements for Eternal Life are

    Requirements for Exaltation
    .The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us all the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

    To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

    He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

    . 1.
    We must be baptized.
    . 2.
    We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    . 3.
    Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
    . 4.
    We must receive the temple endowment.
    . 5.
    We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

    In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:
    . 1.
    Love God and our neighbors.
    . 2.
    Keep the commandments.
    . 3.
    Repent of our wrongdoings.
    . 4.
    Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
    . 5.
    Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
    . 6.
    Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
    . 7.
    Have family and individual prayers every day.
    . 8.
    Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
    . 9.
    Study the scriptures.
    . 10.
    Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

    Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.


    Gospel Principles, c. 1978, 1979, and 1981, Chapter 47, Exaltation, p. 291-292
    Gospel Principles Chapter 47: Exaltation

    I think they forgot to say that if the bishop calls you to serve in some capacity you are to regard that calling as coming directly from God. You should accept the calling.

    “For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for the blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted before the foundations of the world. (D&C 132:5.)”
    Elray L. Christiansen, General Conference, Oct. 1972

    I hope this answers some questions.
     
  5. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Our God, being omniscient, knows who He will save. He chooses our habitation and provides opportunites for those people to hear the gospel. "Other sheep I have."

    2 Timothy 2
    19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    John 10
    14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

    Isaiah 40
    11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

    Concerning the Gentiles:

    John 10
    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
     
  6. Stancet

    Stancet Member

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    It's true, I do believe in OSAS. I probably should have worded it better but I was speaking hypothetically. You see, I believe in anabaptism; the doctrine that only true repentant believing Christians should be allowed to be baptized. That means if the thief on the cross was baptized by John the Baptist, that baptism would not have saved him because he was unrepentant (again hypothetically, if baptism was necessary for salvation). But maybe the thief really was repentant of every sin, but later backslid into his life of sin. I happen to believe the thief would have remained saved if he fell back into sin, but I assume mormons don't believe once-saved is always-saved, in which case your doctrines will have to explain to me if he must be baptized again in order to be saved again after he committed his crimes and went to jail.

    But again, I could be wrong because maybe the thief on the cross was repentant, and maybe he was baptized by John the Baptist. But again, this is nothing but presumption. And I don't consider presumption an inherently bad thing, but I do believe in super-conservative views of scripture that teach that every little detail in the Bible is important. And concerning the thief on the cross, the Holy Spirit decided his past life was not important to scripture, but only that he hung beside Jesus and believed on him while they were dying together. Without reiterating everything I said in my last post, I believe his profession of faith was the thing that made Jesus save him.

    Is it alright if you reiterate? I am just curious to know if you said "correct" to mean that once-baptized is always-baptized, or if you were simply agreeing that baptism doesn't mean salvation as you said.

    You are absolutely correct. I have to repent and ask for forgiveness every day. It's a real downer. Not because I believe salvation can be lost, but fellowship with God can, and I definitely don't like that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  7. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    Thank you for your very informative response here.

    I'm curious about another hypothetical situation-- I'm going to name a hypothetical person "Sam". Sam attends your church, is a believing adult is honestly repentant, and is baptized. Sam later backslides into sin, and after that recommits himself to Christ. Should Sam be rebaptized?

    You are correct that LDS do not believe in OSAS. We believe that "salvation" = "being saved from death, physical and spiritual".

    Saved from physical death: All mankind will be saved from physical death (aka will be resurrected), regardless of that person's beliefs or actions.

    Saved from spiritual death: Spiritual death is being cut off from God- to have that communion broken. We harm our relationship with God when we choose to abandon Him/His ways through willfully disobeying Him (aka sinning). Being saved from spiritual death is not a one-time event, but a continual process as we habitually sin and continually should seek be washed in Christ's blood. Hence a person cannot be once-saved-always-saved because a salvation is not a one time event.

    Now, tying this back into baptism: baptism is a promise we make with God. We promise to take on His name and serve Him. He washes away our sins and we are reborn in Him. The act of getting baptized is a one time event (aka you only get dunked once), but this promise is a continual living thing. We continually renew this promise through continual faith in Him and continual repentance.

    If a person (let's call him "Bob") were to continually choose to not repent of his sins and to reject Christ, then Bob's salvation can indeed be lost. We, as limited mortals, are not in a position to judge Bob's salvation.
     
  8. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    What a wonderful presentation of LDS salvation theology. It sounded like it came straight from the bible. We appreciate you Phoebe Ann.
     
  9. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Stancet says:
    OK, in order to tell you about the solution to baptism, I have to give you a sketch of LDS doctrine of life after death.

    In LDS theology, we believe that at death, your spirit leaves your body and goes to a 'spirit world'. This world is divided into 2 sections. 1) Paradise, and
    2) Prison. This has been happening since the first man to die, until the present. So there are billions of spirits in the spirit world.

    Billions of those spirits never had an opportunity to even hear the name of Jesus Christ, let alone believe and have a HS experience and be baptized etc.
    So in the spirit world, there are missionaries for Jesus Christ (this is what Jesus did when he went to the spirits in prison - see 1 Peter 3:18-19) that are teaching people there about Jesus Christ, just like there are missionaries here teaching people about Jesus Christ.

    So if a person did not have a chance on earth to learn about Jesus, they will have that chance in the spirit world, between the time they die and they are resurrected.

    What happens then if a spirit believes and confesses that Jesus is the Christ?
    The next step is to be baptized. This baptism is done by proxy in our temples for and in behalf of a person that has died and gone on to the spirit world.

    This is a great work, and is the very work that Malachi talked about when he received a revelation from God that there would come a time when He was going to turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to the fathers, lest I smite the earth with a curse. (see Malachi 4:5-6)

    This work is called 'baptism for the dead', and started anciently and is presently a great work being done by the LDS church and its people. It will be one of the center pieces of the work done in the millenium, so that all people that have been born on this earth will have the opportunity to hear the word of God and believe in Jesus Christ and partake of all the ordinances necessary for salvation and eternal joy.

    So for the thief on the cross. If he was baptized by John, he may be OK for baptism. If he was not baptized by John, he will have the opportunity to hear more of Jesus in Paradise (where Jesus promised to take him) and then he would have the opportunity to be baptized by proxy in an LDS temple some day to make sure this necessary ordinance is completed.

    Again, baptism by immersion in this life, or baptism by proxy immersion in an LDS temple are the same. In each case, unless the person follows through and keeps the commandment with faith and endures to the end and brings in much fruit for the KOG, that persons baptism is worthless. It only becomes salvific if all other parts of the process is adhered to.

    If a person is baptized and then faulters and falls away, and then repents and comes back to Jesus, it is not necessary to baptize them again. The repentant process and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive sin is enough.[/QUOTE]
     
  10. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Of course, not one person is surprised at the perpetual evasion of the first post aka OP.
     
  11. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul wrote something about " why are they then baptized for the dead? "

    In one gospel, the repentant thief's repentance is never mentioned, it is just said that Christ was crucified "between two malefactors".

    I am not OSAS, the nearest I can reword Arminius is that "it is impossible for a believer to lose his salvation, but it might be possible for a believer to cease being a believer"

    As far as the OP - I am still wondering -- what was taken out?

    Sunday morning before Sunday School is the only time of the week that I eat sweets -- I like the doughnuts, pastries and real coffee -- I am already looking forward to tomorrow morning.

    I am not very confrontational in real life -- I do not argue in sunday school even if someone says something I dont believe in -- which is rare.

    Aint no Calvinists at a Methodist sunday school, i generally find people's questions astonishing
     
  12. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    I can agree with that.
    The Gospel in the Bible is simple and beautiful. Mainstream Christianity adds complicated Creeds to it, distorting the simplicity. By in large they deny prophets, continuing gifts of the Spirit, continuing revelation, etc.
     
  13. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jane, you have spoken to what may have been ADDED TO -- I am still interested in what was allegedly TAKEN OUT

    I cannot affirm or deny that I am "Mainstream" -- dunno about that -- but I affirm two creeds, Apostles and Nicene...

    I missed my weekly sugar-fix -- din make sunday school...

    As I see it the Bible refers to other writings which may be deuterocanonical, apocryphal, or lost.

    Aint no biggie that we don't have 'em

    Ya gotta admit, Mormons want to add a whole lot EXTREE -- a GROUP!!

    I regard Mormons as simply ANOTHER DENOMINATION

    I do not deny prophets, continuing gifts of the Spirit, or continuing revelation, neither do I swallow immediately what others claim to be that.
     
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Married
    Interesting question. Lets look at it closer. Here is the scripture:
    1 Corinthians 15:29
    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    If you read previous Paul is talking about the order of the resurrection and that death is the last thing that Jesus will put under his feet. So in fact all men will be resurrected.

    Then he digs the Sadducees, who do not believe in the resurrection, but are baptizing people for the dead.

    So Paul asks, why are you baptizing people for the dead, if the dead do not rise? Good question.

    But the question does highlight a doctrine at least done by the Sadducces, and that is that for some reason they are baptizing people for the dead. Maybe they are unaware of why they are. Maybe they are just doing this baptizing because of their traditions. Who knows? But they are doing it.

    Now ask the question another way. Are you baptizing people for the dead because you understand that all people will be resurrected?

    Yes, that is why people are baptized for the dead. When the dead who have never heard the name Jesus Christ in their lifetime, hear it in the spirit, and believe and want to be baptized, they now have that opportunity in an LDS temple.

    That is going to be the center piece of the millenium, the finding and teaching and baptizing all those people who lived on earth but did not have an opportunity to learn of Christ and be baptized.

    That is what Christ did after his death and before his resurrection, was to go to the spirits in prison (see 1 Peter 3:18-19) and opened the gates so they too could hear his voice and believe and then by proxy baptism, receive all the blessings associated with being a Christian.

    This doctrine is the solution for all people since the world began who have not heard about Jesus to learn and believe and have the blessing of the saving ordinances they need for salvation.
     
  15. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for your comments Peter1000

    I wonder if LDS are the only people who baptize for the dead; I know others PRAY for the dead.

    I thought about Paul's words on it like -- a 1st century person became a Christian at a catacomb meeting, was arrested that night, died in the arena the next day, and had a baptism by proxy held by Christians who knew he had accepted Christ before death.

    I never associated that "baptizing for the dead" in Paul's time with Sadducees, but I know Saducees did not believe in a resurrection
     
  16. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    1 Corinthians 15 is about resurrection of the dead, not about gaining salvation.

    Why are they baptized for the dead? Paul wasn't. There is no commandment for this.

    The Book of Mormon doesn't mention baptisms for the dead. Mormons only do baptisms for the dead in temple basements; non-Mormons and unworthy Mormons are not allowed to observe this. After death we cannot prepare to meet God according to
    Alma 12:
    24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

    and Alma 34:
    32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

    2 Corinthians 6:
    2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    Hebrews 9:
    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Mormon baptisms for the dead were not taught until September 1, 1842:

    Doctrine and Covenants 124
    28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

    29 For a baptismal font there is not upon the earth, that they, my saints, may be baptized for those who are dead—

    37 And again, verily I say unto you, how shall your washings be acceptable unto me, except ye perform them in a house which you have built to my name?

    38 For, for this cause I commanded Moses that he should build a tabernacle, that they should bear it with them in the wilderness, and to build a house in the land of promise, that those ordinances might be revealed which had been hid from before the world was.

    39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

    40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;

    41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.

    42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof, and the place whereon it shall be built.

    43 And ye shall build it on the place where you have contemplated building it, for that is the spot which I have chosen for you to build it.

    44 If ye labor with all your might, I will consecrate that spot that it shall be made holy.

    The temple in Jerusalem had no baptisms for the dead. Why were certain Corinthians baptizing for the dead and where were they doing it? And who told them to do it?
     
  17. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I really have no idea.
     
  18. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    And no one knows for sure. Perhaps they mistakenly thought it would help those who had died. But we still have to remember that it's pretty pointless after death. The water doesn't wash away our sins; the blood of Christ does.

    1 John 1
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
     
  19. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
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    LDS don't believe that it's magic water that washes away sin. Sin is washed away via Christ and His sacrifice. We, as Christians (disciples of Christ) are baptized because He asked that of us.
     
  20. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Nothing washes away the sinful state of those who died in their sins. The wages of sin is death --- they earned spiritual death.
     
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