LDS Were parts of the Bible deleted by the great and abominable church?

[dzheremi]

No. I am saying that after death there is not the time to offer repentance for what you should have spent your earthly life repenting.

There is the sense among those who believe in Theosis (which my Church does) that perfection continues on after death because God is infinite, so no matter how close we may come to Him we will never be as only He is. We will worship before His throne but obviously never occupy it. But I get the sense from post #71 that this is not what you are thinking about, since you've written about breaking habits and such, which is something else. (Presumably when/if you reach heaven, it's not simply an Alcoholics Anonymous program.)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Whether or not we are perfect after death. Do you believe that once a person dies they are perfected? Like putting on a coat?

Offering a Lutheran POV:

Like putting on a coat? No. Like shedding a filthy robe? Yes.

The old man persists even alongside the new man created in Christ; the new man is already perfect in Christ by Christ's own righteousness, and thus the new man has hope and eternal life. The old man, dead in his sins and mortal is dead and dying. At mortal death the old man is dropped.

Now it's important to understand that this does not equate the old man with the body; but rather the old man is the humanity of fallen Adam (the new man is the humanity of the risen and glorified Jesus).

What dies, dies in order that it might be raised; it is sown mortal and corruptible, it is raised immortal and incorruptible; it is sown a soulish body, it is raised a Spiritual body. As we have born the image of the first Adam, so shall we bear the image of the second Adam who is Christ Jesus.

In death the mortality and fallen nature of our broken and battered humanity dies, the new man lives on for it can never die, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." But has the solemn promise of glory in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come.

What is dead and mortal will die.
The new man will never die, for it is alive in Christ our God.

The new man is already perfect in Christ. What is left behind is the imperfect--the sin and mortality of our flesh. And what is perfect and alive in Christ is raised up, glorified, and will share in the Divine life of God in Jesus by the Holy Spirit: world without end. This Theosis is not godhood, but participation in the one and only God who alone is Eternal and Divine; for the Uncreated Light of God shines upon and permeates all things in that future world (Revelation 21:23).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[withwonderingawe]

Offering a Lutheran POV:

Like putting on a coat? No. Like shedding a filthy robe? Yes.

The old man persists even alongside the new man created in Christ; the new man is already perfect in Christ by Christ's own righteousness, and thus the new man has hope and eternal life. The old man, dead in his sins and mortal is dead and dying. At mortal death the old man is dropped.

Now it's important to understand that this does not equate the old man with the body; but rather the old man is the humanity of fallen Adam (the new man is the humanity of the risen and glorified Jesus).

What dies, dies in order that it might be raised; it is sown mortal and corruptible, it is raised immortal and incorruptible; it is sown a soulish body, it is raised a Spiritual body. As we have born the image of the first Adam, so shall we bear the image of the second Adam who is Christ Jesus.

In death the mortality and fallen nature of our broken and battered humanity dies, the new man lives on for it can never die, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." But has the solemn promise of glory in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come.

What is dead and mortal will die.
The new man will never die, for it is alive in Christ our God.

The new man is already perfect in Christ. What is left behind is the imperfect--the sin and mortality of our flesh. And what is perfect and alive in Christ is raised up, glorified, and will share in the Divine life of God in Jesus by the Holy Spirit: world without end. This Theosis is not godhood, but participation in the one and only God who alone is Eternal and Divine; for the Uncreated Light of God shines upon and permeates all things in that future world (Revelation 21:23).

-CryptoLutheran

On one hand I agree with you, the grace of our Savior changes us and faith gives us the desire to be like him. His blood covers our sins as if they were not there, completely gone. However that does not make us perfect.

We view our spirits as the center of our being, where our personality with all of it's weaknesses reside.

"... for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world..." Alma 34

Sunday we had an interesting speaker, a Stake High Councilman. Generally High Councilmen are clean cut dressed in suit and tie and boring. But when this guy got up I had to do a double take, he had long gray hair and a long beard and behind it a twinkle in his eye. When he started speaking he tugged at his hair and said 'I bet you weren't expecting this.' He then explained he's Ishmael in the new Book of Mormon movie series the Church is filming. He said he's the only person in the Book of Mormon who doesn't say a word and on Thursday he is going to die, not to many people know when they are going to die. He was very animated and it felt like were sitting at the feet of Moses or something.

Anyway his talk was on becoming a disciple of Christ, he asked have you ever sat down and ask yourself how do I become a disciple. Have you said to yourself how honest am I going to be or how do I control my tongue,

James 3
" 2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."

The idea is that the spirit needs to learn to control the body and the better we do it in this life the easier it will be after we are resurrected. There is the millennium reign where we will have the presence of Jesus and Satan will be bound. We have this time to think and act upon that discipleship and to strip ourselves of all envy and pride. His grace will abound and he will draw us to him until we are one with him.

 

[fatboys]

No. I am saying that after death there is not the time to offer repentance for what you should have spent your earthly life repenting.

There is the sense among those who believe in Theosis (which my Church does) that perfection continues on after death because God is infinite, so no matter how close we may come to Him we will never be as only He is. We will worship before His throne but obviously never occupy it. But I get the sense from post #71 that this is not what you are thinking about, since you've written about breaking habits and such, which is something else. (Presumably when/if you reach heaven, it's not simply an Alcoholics Anonymous program.)

So are you saying that those who die, die in there sins with no hope to repent in the next life? If we are not perfect and therefore all of us die in sin then we will not be with God? If we sin after this life will we be kicked out with no hope to repent? Is the atonement powerful enough to pay for sins we commit in the next life?

 

[fatboys]

Offering a Lutheran POV:

Like putting on a coat? No. Like shedding a filthy robe? Yes.

The old man persists even alongside the new man created in Christ; the new man is already perfect in Christ by Christ's own righteousness, and thus the new man has hope and eternal life. The old man, dead in his sins and mortal is dead and dying. At mortal death the old man is dropped.

Now it's important to understand that this does not equate the old man with the body; but rather the old man is the humanity of fallen Adam (the new man is the humanity of the risen and glorified Jesus).

What dies, dies in order that it might be raised; it is sown mortal and corruptible, it is raised immortal and incorruptible; it is sown a soulish body, it is raised a Spiritual body. As we have born the image of the first Adam, so shall we bear the image of the second Adam who is Christ Jesus.

In death the mortality and fallen nature of our broken and battered humanity dies, the new man lives on for it can never die, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." But has the solemn promise of glory in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come.

What is dead and mortal will die.
The new man will never die, for it is alive in Christ our God.

The new man is already perfect in Christ. What is left behind is the imperfect--the sin and mortality of our flesh. And what is perfect and alive in Christ is raised up, glorified, and will share in the Divine life of God in Jesus by the Holy Spirit: world without end. This Theosis is not godhood, but participation in the one and only God who alone is Eternal and Divine; for the Uncreated Light of God shines upon and permeates all things in that future world (Revelation 21:23).

-CryptoLutheran

So are you saying that when our old body dies and our new one comes forth it will be perfect?

 

[Rescued One]

So are you saying that those who die, die in there sins with no hope to repent in the next life? If we are not perfect and therefore all of us die in sin then we will not be with God? If we sin after this life will we be kicked out with no hope to repent? Is the atonement powerful enough to pay for sins we commit in the next life?

After this, the judgment of what each non-believer did. They won't be allowed to sin in the next life.

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The others have the gift of eternal life and are in the Book of Life; they will not be condemned.

 

[dzheremi]

So are you saying that those who die, die in there sins with no hope to repent in the next life? If we are not perfect and therefore all of us die in sin then we will not be with God? If we sin after this life will we be kicked out with no hope to repent? Is the atonement powerful enough to pay for sins we commit in the next life?

What do you mean "if we sin after this life"? We do not believe in reincarnation. There is only this life, which is short and given for repentance, and the next life, which will entail God's judgment upon us. Regarding what may happen to those who die, this is Christ's prerogative, as is testified to in the prayers of the Church:

PRIEST: Agios, Agios, Agios. Holy, Holy, Holy, truly O Lord, our God, who formed us, created us and placed us in the paradise of joy. When we disobeyed Your commandment by the guile of the serpent, we fell from eternal life, and were exiled from the paradise of joy. You have not abandoned us to the end, but have always visited us through Your holy prophets, and in the last days, You did manifest Yourself to us, who were sitting in darkness and the shadow of death, through Your Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who of the Holy Spirit and of the holy Virgin Mary...

CONGREGATION: Amen.

PRIEST: ...Was incarnate and became man, and taught us the ways of salvation. He granted us the birth from on high through water and Spirit. He made us unto himself a congregation, and sanctified us by Your Holy Spirit; He loved His own who were in the world, and gave Himself up for our salvation unto death which reigned over us, whereby we were bound and sold on account of our sins; He descended into Hades through the cross.

CONGREGATION: Amen. We believe.

PRIEST: He rose from the dead on the third day; He ascended into the heavens and sat at Your right hand, O Father; He has appointed a day for recompense, on which He will appear to judge the world in righteousness and give each one according to his deeds.

CONGREGATION: According to Your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins.

+++

The above is from the reconciliation prayer of the liturgy of St. Basil as prayed in the Coptic Orthodox Church (with emphasis added). I'm not sure how much clearer anything can be. We will die, and Christ will return at the end of days to judge all the world and give to each one according to his deeds. No one will sin in heaven, since sin cannot be there (Revelation 21:27), so no question about that is based on anything that will happen or even can happen.

 

[Peter1000]

No. I am saying that after death there is not the time to offer repentance for what you should have spent your earthly life repenting.

There is the sense among those who believe in Theosis (which my Church does) that perfection continues on after death because God is infinite, so no matter how close we may come to Him we will never be as only He is. We will worship before His throne but obviously never occupy it. But I get the sense from post #71 that this is not what you are thinking about, since you've written about breaking habits and such, which is something else. (Presumably when/if you reach heaven, it's not simply an Alcoholics Anonymous program.)

What is your explanation of:
1 Peter 3:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

If there is no time in after death to repent, why was Jesus spending time with the spirits in prison?

 

[dzheremi]

What is your explanation of:
1 Peter 3:18-19King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

If there is no time in after death to repent, why was Jesus spending time with the spirits in prison?

Because the harrowing of hell is part of the crucifixion narrative. The paschal troparion puts it simply enough that He bestows life upon those in the tombs. The Coptic midnight praises for the Resurrection is a bit more flowery (longer), and reads in part:

+ Every human tongue praises with joy Your Resurrection, O Jesus Christ.

+ Let the orthodox Christians, the new Israel, rejoice today.

The believers in Christ, the eternal Logos, He granted us the freedom.

Truly You are blessed, O You who is risen from the dead, and abolished death.

+ He appeared in power and saved His people from the devil with His arm.

+ He also descended to the lower parts of the earth to Hades, through His mercy.


There in that place, He captivated captivity without hindrance.


He utterly broke the iron bars and brought out His chosen, without disgrace.


+ He carried them with Him to the highest, the place of rest, with gladness and joy.

+++

You will notice how the bolded section is all the in past tense, because it is referring to what He has already done during His descent into Hades after His crucifixion. This dealt with those who had died since the beginning until His resurrection. Those of us who live in a post-incarnational world continue to await His return in glory at which time He will judge all of the world, and give to each one according to his deeds.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So are you saying that when our old body dies and our new one comes forth it will be perfect?

It's rather important here to first understand that in orthodox Christian teaching we don't get "new bodies"; instead we believe that the body will be resurrected and transformed. This solid flesh and bone frame of muscle and tissue and matter is what is raised up and which will live forever, glorified, in the future world. But it does not exist in the same way as before, being glorified and transformed; the Apostle saying, "It is sown a soulish body, it is raised a Spiritual body" and "this mortal must put on immortality, this corruptible must put on incorruptible." The Apostle also says, "We will not all die, but we will be changed".

Whether by mortal death or the glory of Christ's coming we will be changed; those who fall asleep in Christ being with the Lord until the Day He comes again as judge of the living and the dead, and we are raised up and transformed; and those who "are alive and remain" at His coming will, with the dead, be transformed with them, "He will transform the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of His glory".

Whether mortal death or Parousia come first, we look forward to the glory that awaits us. With the end of mortality and this body of death that which is dead dies; what remains is only what is in Christ.

So, yes, in the resurrection there is indeed only what is perfect. For it is redeemed, holy, sanctified, righteous, and glorified in Jesus Christ. The perfect is Christ and it is only that which is of Him and belongs to Him that can overcome death; as St. Gregory Nazianzus has said, "Whatever is not assumed is not healed", so that all which Christ has taken upon Himself--the fullness of humanity--is redeemed and made whole in Him and that which is His is ours by grace, by the Holy Spirit. Present now by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, through faith, by the work of God (for this reason we were baptized and brought into the Body of Christ and share of Him at His Table) as promise and hopeful expectation of what is to come when He returns, in glory, and we are raised up to eternal life in the age to come. What is now ours by the grace of the Holy Spirit alive in us through faith as promise will be ours fully in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter1000]

Because the harrowing of hell is part of the crucifixion narrative. The paschal troparion puts it simply enough that He bestows life upon those in the tombs. The Coptic midnight praises for the Resurrection is a bit more flowery (longer), and reads in part:

+ Every human tongue praises with joy Your Resurrection, O Jesus Christ.

+ Let the orthodox Christians, the new Israel, rejoice today.

The believers in Christ, the eternal Logos, He granted us the freedom.

Truly You are blessed, O You who is risen from the dead, and abolished death.

+ He appeared in power and saved His people from the devil with His arm.

+ He also descended to the lower parts of the earth to Hades, through His mercy.


There in that place, He captivated captivity without hindrance.


He utterly broke the iron bars and brought out His chosen, without disgrace.


+ He carried them with Him to the highest, the place of rest, with gladness and joy.

+++

You will notice how the bolded section is all the in past tense, because it is referring to what He has already done during His descent into Hades after His crucifixion. This dealt with those who had died since the beginning until His resurrection. Those of us who live in a post-incarnational world continue to await His return in glory at which time He will judge all of the world, and give to each one according to his deeds.

This is a beautiful
What life after death and before the resurrection is like, is to a great extent unknown, except for little snippets in the scriptures. For example, the one I quoted:
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

As far as I know, this is the only scripture that tells us anything that Jesus did between his death on the cross and his resurrection. If you have another scripture(s) please let me know. But from this scripture we only know 2 things:
1) Jesus went to the spirits in prison.
2) Jesus preached to them.

That he: + He also descended to the lower parts of the earth to Hades, through His mercy. Is not biblical and sounds like a bit of
Greek paganism. Where the spirit prison is, no one knows from scripture. Is it in the lower parts of the earth, no one knows?

That he: He utterly broke the iron bars and brought out His chosen, without disgrace.
Who was brought out is unknown. Unless you have another scriptures that says he brought out his chosen. If they were in prison, I suggest it means they were not very good people on earth, so if Jesus went to the prison and took out those bad men and women because they were unilaterally chosen by some means, it seems a little unfair and if there is one thing Jesus is, he is fair. He would not be unfair.

Where in the scriptures does it say Jesus did this without disgrace?

That he: + He carried them with Him to the highest, the place of rest, with gladness and joy.
So Jesus takes the chosen men and women out of prison and carries them with him to the highest, the place of rest, with gladness and joy. I can only hope that I screw up on earth and land in prison too.

Where in the scriptures does it say that he will take the chosen from prison and carry them with him straight to the highest point of heaven? What a deal for those who are chosen, what a bummer for those who are not chosen.

 

[Peter1000]

Stancet says:

Well, if you are saved you will go to heaven, but you will be poor if you refused to live as God instructed you.

I have other questions, but this was interesting to me. What is the practical heavenly ramifications of
being 'poor' in heaven?

So Matthew 5 and 1 Corinthians 13 are for 'saved' people. OK, I understand your reasoning. Can I say that if a Christian is not living up to the instructions of these sermons that they may not have been saved in the first place?

 

[dzheremi]

This is a beautiful
What life after death and before the resurrection is like, is to a great extent unknown, except for little snippets in the scriptures. For example, the one I quoted:
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

As far as I know, this is the only scripture that tells us anything that Jesus did between his death on the cross and his resurrection. If you have another scripture(s) please let me know.

There are other scriptures, though they do not answer the kinds of questions you have asked here. Revelation 1:18 has the risen Christ proclaim that He has the keys of Hades and of death. It is probably this kind of wording, as found in scripture, that has inspired the metaphorical conception of Hades as a prison from which Christ frees people, as in the Coptic hymn I posted.

But from this scripture we only know 2 things:
1) Jesus went to the spirits in prison.
2) Jesus preached to them.

Yes, and from that comes the tradition of basically every Christian tradition that those who accepted Him there were brought out of Hades by him, a la this 1607 illustrated Armenian gospel (from the earlier Wiki link on the harrowing of hell):

That he: + He also descended to the lower parts of the earth to Hades, through His mercy. Is not biblical and sounds like a bit of
Greek paganism. Where the spirit prison is, no one knows from scripture. Is it in the lower parts of the earth, no one knows?

I'm not claiming that it is Biblical, though it is clearly based in what is found in the Bible, as I've just written about above. And you are apparently taking the Hades as prison metaphor much more literally than the people who actually use this metaphor did. The point is not about its geographical location, but about Christ's freeing the captives there. I had hoped you'd get that from the quoted hymn.

That he: He utterly broke the iron bars and brought out His chosen, without disgrace.
Who was brought out is unknown.

The individual identities of people is not the point.

Unless you have another scriptures that says he brought out his chosen. If they were in prison, I suggest it means they were not very good people on earth, so if Jesus went to the prison and took out those bad men and women because they were unilaterally chosen by some means, it seems a little unfair and if there is one thing Jesus is, he is fair. He would not be unfair.

And it is not unfair that all those who died in the time before the incarnation would be left in Hades on that account?

Where in the scriptures does it say Jesus did this without disgrace?

Again, Peter, I offered a Coptic Orthodox hymn because this is my Church and I wanted to show that we too believe in this, since we are not listed on the page about the Paschal troparion. I am not presenting it as being a direct quote from scripture. It is a hymn that is sung as part of the midnight praises (tasbeha) for the Resurrection.

That he: + He carried them with Him to the highest, the place of rest, with gladness and joy.
So Jesus takes the chosen men and women out of prison and carries them with him to the highest, the place of rest, with gladness and joy. I can only hope that I screw up on earth and land in prison too.

Where in the scriptures does it say that he will take the chosen from prison and carry them with him straight to the highest point of heaven? What a deal for those who are chosen, what a bummer for those who are not chosen.

I don't think you're understanding the point of having brought this up. Again, the harrowing of hell deals with those who were born and died BEFORE Christ. You and I and everyone reading this is not within that group, so we await the return of Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

dzheremi says:

There is the sense among those who believe in Theosis (which my Church does) that perfection continues on after death because God is infinite, so no matter how close we may come to Him we will never be as only He is.

Read Matthew 5:48. Jesus tell us to be as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

This is different than what you say?

 

[dzheremi]

Read Matthew 5:48. Jesus tell us to be as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Yes, because this is what we are to strive for. The same is true of other passages in the same Gospel, such as 5:30 where we are commanded that if our right hand causes us to sin, we are to cut it off and cast it from us, lest our whole body be cast into hell because of sin. Christ our God is making a point concerning the ultimate goal of our lives: to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect. This is contrasted in the same section with the imperfect, worldly love of the tax collectors and others who love imperfectly, as they only love those who love them back, and greet only their brethren.

God, however, has a different idea of how we are to be. The Sermon on the Mount, the portion of scripture in which that command is found, is basically a lot of contrasts between people's expectations, modes of living, and understanding of how to live a godly life and the message of Christ our God. Hence He structures parts of it in the format "You have heard it said..., but I say unto you...", to turn people's minds from their previous erroneous/limited understanding to the true understanding and meaning of the holy life, as given directly and perfectly by God Himself, Jesus Christ.

As Fr. Tadros Y. Malaty puts it in his commentary on the Gospel of St. Matthew:

"In the old times, the Lord forbade His people to resist evil by greater evil. He allowed them this because of the hardness of their hearts. But since we are in the New Testament, He has uplifted us to facing evil not by equal evil, or less, or even silence, but to face it with goodness; thereby uplifting us to the summit of perfection."

The phrase "uplifting us to the summit of perfection" is obviously in relation to what had come before this new way of life, which is by comparison less than perfect, not how we should now be, in this NT world we live in. The understanding of what it means to be perfect as the Father is perfect is similar, as our father HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic wrote in his Epistle to the Bishops in Africa (a letter of 90 bishops of Egypt and Libya to the bishops of the African continent in defense of the Nicene Creed) that "we too, albeit we cannot become like God in essence, yet by progress in virtue imitate God, the Lord granting us this grace, in the words, 'Be merciful as your Father is merciful:' 'be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect'."

This is how "be perfect, as your Father is perfect" is to be understood: in reference to the perfection of life offered in Christ Jesus, by progress in virtue that we imitate the Lord our God by being perfectly merciful as He is, loving as He is, etc.

Remember here what I wrote that you are now taking issue with: that we will never become like He is in essence (only praise before His throne, never occupying it), only be more, and more, and more, and more (etc.) perfected, in the eternal process of Theosis whereby we are perfected by grace and our participation in Him.

In his treatise on perfection (available here as a Word document), St. Gregory of Nyssa sums it all up in the concluding paragraph as follows:

In my judgment this is the perfection of the Christian life: the name of Christ which demonstrates all his other names shares in our soul, words and life's activities so that the holiness praised by Paul (1Ths 5.23) may be constantly kept in the entire body, mind and spirit with no admixture of evil. If anyone says that the good is difficult to attain--for the Lord of creation is alone immutable while human nature is mutable and inclined to change--how can a mutable nature realize what is fixed and stable in the good? My response is that a person who does not lawfully strive in a contest cannot be crowned (1Tim 2.5); he would not be a legitimate athlete if an opponent were lacking. Without an opponent there is no crown, for victory against oneself is lacking if there is no weakness. Hence, let us struggle against our nature's mutability as though against an adversary; wrestling with our reason makes us victors not by casting it down but by not consenting to the fall. Man can change not only for evil; if he had a natural inclination only to evil it would be impossible to turn to the good. Now the most beautiful effect of alteration is growth in the good since change to a more divine state is always remaking the man changing for the better. What seems fearful (I mean our mutable nature) can serve as a wing for flight to better things, since it is to our disgrace if we cannot change for the better. No one should lament his mutable nature; rather, by always being changed to what is better and by being transformed from glory to glory (2Cor 3.18), let him so be changed. By daily growth he always becomes better and is always being perfected yet never attains perfection's goal. Perfection consists in never stopping our growth towards the good nor in circumscribing perfection.​

You will remember, I hope, our earlier conversation on God being "uncircumscribed" according to traditional Christian theology. The same too applies to our perfection: that it be boundless, as the One we are seeking to imitate is likewise uncircumscribed (hence there is no 'end point' to Theosis; it continues on forever because God is infinite). Hence the command that we be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect is a call to Theosis -- that we come to share in our portion of the Lord's kingdom, and indeed in the Lord Himself as He has granted us the ability to do by the sacrifice of His Son, our Lord and God Jesus Christ.

Whereas before such a thing would have been impossible, on account of our great sin which has separated our race from God, with the coming of Christ, His taking and purifying and elevating and blessing of our nature in Himself, by the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, we may now truly respond to such a call by "never stopping our growth toward the good", as our beloved father St. Gregory puts it above.

In Christ, we are a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), and our purpose and responsibility are to be perfect (not merely 'good' or 'better than our enemies'). Following Christ is the way to do that.

 

[Peter1000]

Because the harrowing of hell is part of the crucifixion narrative. The paschal troparion puts it simply enough that He bestows life upon those in the tombs. The Coptic midnight praises for the Resurrection is a bit more flowery (longer), and reads in part:

+ Every human tongue praises with joy Your Resurrection, O Jesus Christ.

+ Let the orthodox Christians, the new Israel, rejoice today.

The believers in Christ, the eternal Logos, He granted us the freedom.

Truly You are blessed, O You who is risen from the dead, and abolished death.

+ He appeared in power and saved His people from the devil with His arm.

+ He also descended to the lower parts of the earth to Hades, through His mercy.


There in that place, He captivated captivity without hindrance.


He utterly broke the iron bars and brought out His chosen, without disgrace.


+ He carried them with Him to the highest, the place of rest, with gladness and joy.

+++

You will notice how the bolded section is all the in past tense, because it is referring to what He has already done during His descent into Hades after His crucifixion. This dealt with those who had died since the beginning until His resurrection. Those of us who live in a post-incarnational world continue to await His return in glory at which time He will judge all of the world, and give to each one according to his deeds.

Somehow my first thought got lost. So here it is:
This is a beautiful hymn, and it is one thing that I look forward to in my life is to come to Egypt and attend an Coptic worship service at midnight on Easter eve. Some year I will be there.

 

[Stancet]

I have other questions, but this was interesting to me. What is the practical heavenly ramifications of
being 'poor' in heaven?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 comes to mind. Paul was addressing the church at Corinth which had fallen into sin shortly after he left. This passage is his warning to those saved Christians about the works they are doing in this life, both good and evil. Verse 15 says "If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire."

You see, when Jesus comes to give rewards to all the saints our works will be judged with fire. The works of some Christians will be burned up completely because they departed so quickly and had no good works to speak of, and they will receive nothing but the blanket rewards that every Christian gets.

Every saved Christian will receive...
Eternal Life (John 3:16)
Entrance into God's Kingdom (John 3:5)
Acceptance by God (Romans 5:1)

Only faithful Christians will receive...
Abundant Eternal Life (James 1:12)
Reigning with Christ (Luke 19:17)
Friendship with Jesus (John 15:14)
Among others...

So Matthew 5 and 1 Corinthians 13 are for 'saved' people. OK, I understand your reasoning. Can I say that if a Christian is not living up to the instructions of these sermons that they may not have been saved in the first place?

Absolutely.

In Matthew 5:22, Jesus was telling his followers not to be angry with their neighbors. He specifically said anyone who calls his brother a fool was in danger of hell fire. For a saved Christian, that means we might experience a tremendous loss during the fire of God's judgement, but failure to love other people is certainly an indicator that you might not have been saved in the first place.

But like I said, you don't need to believe Once-saved-always-saved in order to be saved. Most denominations don't worry about it. Just out of curiosity, how does your denomination interpret the scriptures?

 

[Rescued One]

Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

"So we don’t close our eyes and simply hope for the day of perfection. No, we open our eyes wider than ever, relying on God’s promise, looking for opportunities to learn more about him and his word, and watching for ways to love. God’s reshaping, polishing, finishing work will be happening as we are loving. God is completing us when we love our spouses and our children, when we love our neighbors and co-workers, when we love our life-long friends and the strangers we’ll probably never see again.
"For sure, there will be a glorious, full, after-death removal of all sin (Revelation 21:4; Revelation 21:27). No one will die without some sin still to be forgiven and washed away, however much glorious progress they made along the way (1 John 1:8). But Paul’s hope and joy in Philippians 1:6 wasn’t penned merely to be a wait-and-see prayer, but a press-on-in-the-work prayer for the spread of the gospel — first in their own hearts and holiness, and then to more and more who have not yet heard or embraced the good news. God will be completing what he’s been doing among us, in each of us and through us to the world around us (Isaiah 55:11) — all through love, a love formed and carried along by the truth.
"Don’t lose heart. Don’t give up. Don’t doubt the passion and ability of God to fulfill the plans of God for you and for the world. Set yourself to love more and more whoever God has put in front of you, and know that he will be preparing you to stand in front of him."
Love That Will Complete You | Desiring God

Colossians 1
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jude 1
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

2 Timothy 4
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Rescued One]

I don't think you're understanding the point of having brought this up. Again, the harrowing of hell deals with those who were born and died BEFORE Christ. You and I and everyone reading this is not within that group, so we await the return of Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

dzheremi says:

I don't think you're understanding the point of having brought this up. Again, the harrowing of hell deals with those who were born and died BEFORE Christ. You and I and everyone reading this is not within that group, so we await the return of Christ.

So those who died before Christ, their spirits went to this spirit prison. Jesus visited them after his death and preached to them, those that believed were brought out of the prison to the highest heaven. Those that did not believe stayed in the the prison or were they transferred to a permanent hell? Is this what you believe?

What of all those that died after Jesus? Do they go straight to heaven if they believe and straight to hell if they do not believe?[/QUOTE]