Were Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc authentic people?

JackRT

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Why do you say that? All of the earliest surviving manuscripts have their names on them.

I say that because it is true. The earliest surviving manuscript is a tiny fragment of GJohn dated to about AD 125. There are very few manuscripts from the second and even the third centuries. The names of the evangelists were not attached to the documents till mid to late second century.
 
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Radagast

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The earliest surviving manuscript is a tiny fragment of GJohn dated to about AD 125. There are very few manuscripts from the second and even the third centuries. The names of the evangelists were not attached to the documents till mid to late second century.

Your first sentence indicates that you have zero evidence for your last one.
 
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Roger B

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FireDragon76

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FireDragon76

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Your first sentence indicates that you have zero evidence for your last one.

What Jack says is generally understood as true among scholars. That's not to say the early church didn't know about the authors, but we have no surviving early copies of the gospels that say "this was written by x".
 
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Roger B

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It's based on a tradition from the early church mystically associating each evangelist with a different beast in Revelation.

How does this explanation fit with the Book of 'Great Hours' (16th Century) depicting Matthew with an Angel, Mark with a Lion, Luke with a Bull and John with an Eagle?

'Great Hours' suggests a period of TIME - not beasts in Revelation?

The Grandes Heures of Anne of Brittany (Les Grandes Heures d'Anne de Bretagne in French) is a book of hours, commissioned (1503-08) by Anne of Brittany, Queen of France. Ref: Grandes Heures of Anne of Brittany - Wikipedia

/]Prince Arthur[/url], on Flickr
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FireDragon76

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How does this explanation fit with the Book of 'Great Hours' (16th Century) depicting Matthew with an Angel, Mark with a Lion, Luke with a Bull and John with an Eagle?

'Great Hours' suggests a period of TIME - not beasts in Revelation?

The Grandes Heures of Anne of Brittany (Les Grandes Heures d'Anne de Bretagne in French) is a book of hours, commissioned (1503-08) by Anne of Brittany, Queen of France. Ref: Grandes Heures of Anne of Brittany - Wikipedia

/]Prince Arthur[/url], on FlickrView attachment 252886 View attachment 252886 View attachment 252888 View attachment 252889

The association was far older than the 16th century. It was probably Origen that first suggested it, though it has been a long time since I studied patristics.
 
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Roger B

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The Freemasons also use this iconography on their Main Crest.

I'm still working out what the connection between Freemasons and the Church is.

32043_0.jpg
Grand Lodge of Ireland Crest.jpg
United_Grand_Lodge_of_England_logo.png


Alot of Bishops are Freemasons - Geoffrey Fisher (Archbishop of Canterbury, Bishop of Chester) who presided over the Queen's coronation in 1953 was a very high ranking Freemason.

Peterborough Cathedral has masonic signs in plain view.

Peterborough Cathedral Masonic Signs.JPG
 
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FireDragon76

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The Freemasons also use this iconography on their Main Crest.

I'm still working out what the connection between Freemasons and the Church is.

View attachment 253065 View attachment 253066 View attachment 253067

Alot of Bishops are Freemasons - Geoffrey Fisher (Archbishop of Canterbury, Bishop of Chester) who presided over the Queen's coronation in 1953 was a very high ranking Freemason.

Peterborough Cathedral has masonic signs in plain view.

View attachment 253068


Many Freemasons historically have been Christians, so the presence of Christian symbols is not surprising.
 
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Rajni

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Do we know exactly who they were?
No. At least, I don't know who they were.
I would have to put faith in what others say about them,
which isn't the same as knowing for sure myself through
meeting them personally.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do we know exactly who they were?

Yes. A better question is if these are the people who wrote the four Gospels, and that's less clear.

Matthew refers to Jesus' apostle Matthew, also named Levi. He was a publican that Jesus called to give up his life as a tax collector and follow Him.

Luke refers to one of Paul's missionary companions.

Mark refers to John Mark, a missionary companion of both Paul and Peter.

John most likely refers to the Apostle John, like Matthew one of Jesus' Twelve Apostles.

The Gospel accounts themselves are anonymous, but these four individuals have been ascribed traditional authorship since very ancient times, the earliest possible mention comes to us from the late 1st century/early 2nd century church father Papias of Hierapolis. The writings of Papias are mostly lost, but fragments have been preserved in the writings of others, among those preserved fragments include Papias' account of who authored the four Gospels.

Papias' accounts,

"Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took special care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements." and "Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew* language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." - Papias, Fragment VI, as recorded by Eusebius

Another major source is Irenaeus from the late 2nd century,

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia." - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Ch. 1

*Aramaic, as Aramaic was often called "Hebrew" in antiquity, since it was the language of the Hebrews i.e. the Jewish people. The patristic view is that Matthew originally composed a list of Jesus' sayings (logion, meaning "sayings" or "words" but translated here as "oracles") in Aramaic, but later wrote the Greek text we know today.

Many modern scholars doubt these traditions, so it's an open question as to who wrote the Gospels since they are anonymous.

But the individuals mentioned are well known, even if they aren't the ones who penned the Gospels traditionally ascribed to them.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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No we don't. Those names were attached to the gospels about a century later mostly on the basis of legend.

Legend is a strong word. Tradition is a better one.

The question is how reliable that tradition is.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Roger B

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Came across these depictions of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John suggesting alignment with the Royal Stars (Formalhaut, Antares, Regulus and Aldebaran) and the signs of the Zodiac.

Royal Stars MMLJ.jpg


This would make sense of the fact that the Lion, Bull, Eagle and Angel are generally depicted as winged creatures exhibiting celestial or heavenly characteristics.

Formalhaut was called Hastorang by the Persians, one of the four "royal stars".
In Persia, Antares was known as Satevis, one of the four "royal stars".
Regulus known as Venant, one of the four 'royal stars' of the Persian monarchy.
Aldebaran is the brightest star in the Taurus constellation.

The Key to the Great Arcanum.jpg


The 'Key to the Great Arcanum' also appears to suggest a connection with the Four Seasons and perhaps explains better the 'The Grandes Heures' time period connection.
 
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Roger B

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'Star Comet' - your name 'seren'dipitously reminded me of these two Stellar Theology references that I stumbled across recently.

(Seren is a Welsh name meaning "star").

stellar theology and masonic astronomy.jpg


‘Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy’ by Robert Hewitt Brown first published in 1882. This book reveals the hidden meanings of Masonic and other symbols, linking them to pagan religion and to modern faiths such as Judaism and Christianity. As a highly respected Freemason, (having achieved the 32nd degree), and a diligent scholar of the ancient mysteries, Brown spoke from an almost unique position of authority. The book lays bare astonishing astronomical explanations for a host of religious allegories and motifs, allowing the reader to reconcile numerous otherwise incomprehensible enigmas.

PDF for this book can be downloaded from:

https://pubastrology.files.wordpres...nic-astronomy-by-robert-hewitt-brown-1882.pdf

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in a Stellar Theology context are the 'Four Seasons' and the Twelve Disciples are the Twelve Signs of the Zodiac that travel round with the Sun (Son) of God throughout the year.

Also, I didn't realise that the 3 stars in Orion's Belt are called the '3 Kings' and on the 25th December align with the brightest star in the sky (Canis Major) and point to where the sun will rise on the Horizon. It is a beautiful story.

masonic-lodge-the-square.jpg
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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And a number of early Christian writers (writing around the year 150), such as Papias and Polycarp, confirm that authorship.
And you consider that a credible testimony? On that basis, both the book of Mormon and the Qur'an are authentic divine revelations, too: high-ranking, convinced believers supported them roughly 50-80 years after their release.
 
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The association was far older than the 16th century. It was probably Origen that first suggested it, though it has been a long time since I studied patristics.

Irenaeus in Against Heresies talks about it. I want to say Book III.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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