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were in daniel ch 9 does it talk about the anti christ???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by celtic_crusader, Feb 11, 2002.

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  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Debbie,
    Satan was bound/judged/cast out by Christ's ministry, reversing satan's dominion over the People of God, granting power over all darkness to the saints, and immediately enabling the gospel to spread to all nations.
    (John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).

    Jesus said Anyone who believes in Him will NEVER die.
    (John 8:51,John 11:26)
    But Isaiah says that In the New Heavens & earth there will still be Birth, ageing, sinners and death. (Isaiah 65:17-23)
    Guess what Debbie, Both Isaiah & Jesus were RIGHT!

    The New Heavens and earth of Peter & Revelation came to replace the Heavens and earth God created AFTER he parted the sea and brought the Hebrews out of Egypt into the wilderness. (Isaiah 51:16)
    Debbie, What do you suppose the "heavens and earth" in That passage in Isaiah represent? Physical creation? If you can support a belief that God destroyed the physical "heavens and earth" he created in Genesis, then created a NEW physical creation after he brought Israel out of Egypt, I'd like to see you do it!

    Finally Debbie,
    Jesus said he would come in the lifetime of the apostles (Matt 16:27-28, 24:34, 26:64). The apostles said they were living the end times (1 Cor 10:11, Heb 1:2, Heb 9:26, 1 Pe 1:20, 1 Jn 2:18).

    The only "Rational" thing to do for the Bible believing Christian is to Honor their authority on the matter and agree with them.
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I haven't seen any new heaven and earth yet. Before I see a new earth, I would expect to see a new heaven at the wedding feast. And this earth is dying, in fact the bible uses the word groaning (earthquakes). Do you think that Jesus forgot to fix the Ozone Layer, that was supposed to be for our protection?? Oh - and one more thing that will prove that we are NOT in that age to come yet.
    Isaiah 65:20 - Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." Well parousia, I guess that you are saying that we must all be accursed then right?? Because almost no one reaches a hundred. Listen brother, when the Kingdom does come, men will live to be as old as the trees, just like they did in Adams day. Most of them were over 900 years old, and that is the way it will be again. We serve a Mighty, Powerful God. Satan will not have his way then, he will have chains instead, and be cast into the lake of fire.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thunder, What "heaven and earth" did God create AFTER he parted the sea and brought Israel out of Egypt into the wilderness? (Isaiah 51:16)
     
  4. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Since Parousia is assuming the judgements books have already been opened & does not want to address the subject, then he is saying we are living in heaven & hell now.
    No new judgement books or books of life are prophecied to be created for us, so we are left to be reincarnated perpetually in the kingdom that never ends.
    That is not rational.
    Amen rolling thunder.
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Debbie, Perhaps you can take each scripture I cited, explain to me why they do not mean what I contend they mean, and offer your alternative interpratation of each of them specifically.

    Wouldn't that be more productive?
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Oh yeah...
    Judgement..
    It is appointed for men once to die and "after this" the Judgment ......."each in his own order".
    (Hebrews 9, 1Corr. 15)


    After we shed this physical tent, we are either immediatly clothed in our resurrection bodies and ushered into Heaven where our inheritance is,
    or,
    we are immediatly cast into the lake of fire.

    No reincarnation as you suggest debbie, and no more "holding tank" of sheol/hades. they were emptied by Christ over 1900 years ago.
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thunder,
    It should come as no surprise to find that the Scriptures tell us that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

    To believe anything else is an affront to the authority of scripture.

    Earthquakes?
    Here is a link recording the frequency of earthquakes in modern times compared to ancient times:
    www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/wn-eqahf.html

    I'll paraphrase their conclusions:
    "There is no evidence whatsoever in support of the claim made by various religious sources that earthquake activity is markedly different in our century compared with earlier centuries. All information available points to the contrary. The shifting, twisting, uncoordinated claims of the various religious sources, and their juggling of facts and figures in an effort to prove that an increase has occurred have been revealed above as fraudulent –hopefully not deliberately so, but as a result of remarkably poor research, superfical analysis and wishful thinking."

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  8. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Parousia, instead of me accepting your offer of debating every scripture you misinterpret, why don't you start a preterist thread & allow the rest of us to debate on the threads we wish to participate in. I don't wish to debate preterism. It doesnt hold water anywhere.
    Why do you particpate in futurist's debates? It must be your intention to stop all futurist debates of end time prophecy.
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I just wanted to add one more scripture, just for good measure.
    Isaiah 66:3 - "But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dogs neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pigs blood; and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations." This is also interesting because it is also a prophecy of the Abomination of Desolation that will happen mid-way through the tribulation. It already happened in the past, but on a smaller scale thru Antiochus Apiphanes, when he sprayed the blood of a pig in the Jews sacred place. More about that later.
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

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    Jesus did not say that. Why do you insist on twisting the meaning??
    Matt.16:28 - "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom".
    parousia - you said it yourself that they will never die. I don't see anything that talks about their lifetime in the sense that you mean it. The disciples are not dead, nor will they ever see death. They passed on from life, to life everlasting. IT'S A MIRACLE, and a mystery.
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

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    I'm sorry parousia,
    But I can not let you avoid this one. I can't wait to see you try to explain this one. I got the scripture right from where you were pulled it up yourself, on this thread. Good luck friend, See ya! ! !
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    How is it a debate if everyone agrees?
    I did start a thread and it is doing quite well thanks. Stop on by and throw in your $.02. All are welcome.

    You say I misinterprate certain scriptures but you will not offer any alternative to my to my interpratation?

    I have posted scripture upon scripture to support my claims yet nobody can offer a rebuttal deeper than "your wrong, go away" The only person who has even taken the scriptures I post and offered an alternative reading is WillisDeal (with the possible exception of THUNDER who is actually coming around) I am learning much from both these indviduals.

    Debbie, If you truly are right, Why are you so reluctant to provide scriptural reason to me for what you believe and why I'm wrong?

    Scriputre commands us to always provide sober reason for our faith ot all who call us to account.

    I have been called to account by everyone here and have provided sober reason.
    Why is it so difficult to return the favor?
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    THUNDER, If it was talking about spiritual death here, and none of them would see it, Why did Jesus say only"Some" of them wouldn't die? How do you get around the clear implication that some of them would die?
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    THUNDER, Adam lived to be 900 after the fall!!
    are you saying your future Kingdom will be like it was in Adams day after the fall????

    As to your "I'm not gonna let you get away with this" comment, OK, I'll bite, even though I have done nothing but let everyone else "get away" with ignoring my questions, I'll go ahead and continue to provide sober reason to all who call me to account in an effort to set an example that I can only hope and pray will be followed in kind.

    Many things are said in that verse. First, there are still
    sinners in the NH/NE time, you noticed? Therefore, if you
    believe that there will be no sin, no evil in the NH/NE,
    it is not scriptural. Second, there is still
    physical death for it is clearly said that "the child
    shall die". That could not be clearer. And once again,
    to deny it is not scriptural. What is an
    infant and what is an old man? It is not a matter of
    age, since it is said that an infant can be 100 y.o.,
    and same thing about the "sinner". If you consider
    the 100 y.o. child as a baby, then the sinner of 100
    y.o. is also a baby. Now what is a child
    according to God? In Matthew 18, Jesus compares children
    with the heirs of the kingdom. He says that we have to
    be like children to enter His kingdom. Now what is
    an "old man" according to God? "knowing this, that
    our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of
    sin might be done away with, that we should no longer
    be slaves of sin." (Romans 6:6). Old
    man=sinner. There is a rythm in Isaiah 65:20. A parallel is made.
    1-3, 2-4. : "No more shall an infant from there
    live but a few days. For the child shall die one
    hundred years old." "Nor an old man who has not
    fulfilled his days. But the sinner being one hundred years
    old shall be accursed." The one justified by
    Christ is considered as a child even when he dies at 100
    y.o.. He has eternal life, so 100 y.o. is nothing. He
    won't live "but a few days" because when he dies, he
    has eternity ahead of him. But the sinner who
    is 100 y.o. has already fulfilled his days. He is
    accursed for eternal life is not for him. At 100 y.o., the
    just is considered as a child; the sinner as an old
    man. Just like we see in Romans 6:6. Also
    consider Psalm 103:5 "So that your youth is renewed like
    the eagle's." Do you think what is meant here is
    really to become physically younger? No, of course. Just
    like being born again is not to go back in your
    mother's womb. And when you are born again, what are you?

    Bingo! An infant. An infant who has eternal life, an
    infant who won't live but a few days. But if you are not
    born again, you are an old man and you are accursed;
    cut from eternal life.

    The explanation of "child" and "old man" is totally
    scriptural, as I showed. And if not, you still have to
    explain why one would be called child at 100 y.o.(poor
    moms... raising a child would be a verrrrrry long task!)
    and if at 100 y.o. one is still considered as a
    child, why would he be called a sinner and be accursed
    at such a young age?

    I don't see any problem with a
    born again (spiritually alive) who dies at 100 y.o.
    (physical death). To die at a certain age is a proof of
    physical death, and he is called a child, the same word
    used by Christ to describe His disciples, God's
    children. When you are born again, you are spiritually a
    child, but you will physically die one day and at a
    certain age. What is the problem with that? No
    contradiction here.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  15. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Parousia, I guess you don't understand. I don't want to debate preterism, which is why I don't go to preterist threads. I have debated the subject before. It doesnt hold water. I dont have to debate anything that I don't want to waste my time with. We all choose what threads we wish to participate in.
    You have turned this thread into a preterist debate, which was not it's original intent, just your intent. Well done.
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    I don't mean to butt in here, but I would like to add some input to this arguement. Sometimes these debates get heated, and we open the door for our advisary to step in. Most of the time it just happens, unplanned if you will. I will admit that it caught me unaware a few times myself. I am very new to these debates on computers, but I have seen how it can quickly get out of control. Then it starts becoming some kind of a competition. Now that I have experienced it myself, I am more aware of how the enemy will try to sneak in.

    We should all try to remember that this is no competition, and no one will be declared the winner. This is not a game either, and there will be no champion. Jesus is our champion and we're all just trying to finish the race, so we can all get the prize. I'm for all of you, and I hope we all make it, and I hope to see you there. I have changed my whole attitude here, and I am guarding against the enemy who's only purpose is to seek, kill, and destroy.

    I don't want to take any of this personal. I am only trying to search out the truth. And I hope that I can help others find the truth. If I can great, but if not, I am learning all the more. These debates force you to get into the Word, so how can we lose?? Only if we come in the wrong attitude, that causes division. So lets put our heads together, increase our knowledge, and get stronger in our Lord. we are all on the same team, and "A house divided against itself will not stand".
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    AMEN THUNDER AMEN!!
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Debbie, I was unaware that this thread was for "futurists only"

    Celtic Crusader, who started it, posed a question about antichrist and Daniel, and I joined in to offer my understanding.
    Only after I did that, was I called to account for my understanding by you and everyone else, so I have done just that.

    You say you don't want to debate me, but your questions to me such as,
    "How can you rationalize that satan is bound and we are living in peace & safety? How do you rationalize the "no death"?"
    indicated to me that you actually wanted an answer.
    I apologize if i misunderstood you.
    If you truly don't want me to answer your questions, I won't anymore. However, I'd humbly suggest that the best way for you to achieve that goal is to refrain from asking them in the first place.

    YBIC,P70
     
  19. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Isaiah is talking about the thousand year reign when reference is made to death and dying, not the period of the new heaven and new earth. In Isaiah God is telling us what is going to happen, from messiah to new heaven/earth, then dwells specificly upon the new jerusalem. It is noteworthy that during the time spoken of by Isaiah death still exists, however, in Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    Note that former things are passed away, ALL things are made new, resulting in no more death, sorrow, pain, etc. Now it seems pretty simple, all things made new = no more death. If death is mentioned in a verse then it MUST occur prior to all things made new.

    p70 I think your explanation of the old man and child is fascinating, but it appears to have a some ragged edges. You scripturally link the 'old man' with the sinful nature, but the word used here actually means 'aged, ancient, elder' as in elderly man, whereas Paul's use of the phrase in Romans is more literally translated 'filthy mind', or if you prefer KJV english 'old man' means 'former nature', and has nothing to do with the age of the person. Your comparision further breaks down with God's words 'nor an old man that hath not filled his days' God is plainly saying that an old man will have lived a full life, and I can't figure out how the old sin nature, filthy mind, old man, can live a full life.
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I disagree.
    How do you figure this?
    Where is the millennium even mentioned?
    It IS in fact the New H/E that Isaiah is describing here, to insert the "millennium" is , IMHO, eisegesis and unwarranted.

    Well, The "New Jerusalem" according to Revelation, arrives after the millennium has ended, after the great white throne judgement, not before.

    Revelation 21:1-2
    "1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

    How do you reconcile your idea that the "New Jerusalem" is on earth prior to the vanishing of the old H/E with the above scriptures?


    Again, I disagree. Isaiah speaks of Physical death continuing , John speaks of Spiritual death ending during the "time" of the New H/E.
    No Contradiction here.

    For Those inside the city, all the former things are passed, however outside the city, are dogs and sorcerors and all who commit a lie. (Rev. 22:15)
    This confirms that after the New Jerusalem comes, after the Judgement, there are still sinners that dwell on the earth. The gates of the city reamin open and the kings of the earth continually enter into it and bring their ritches.

    All will physically die, inside the city or out, but those outside the city who die will have fulfilled their days. Those who die physically inside the city are but infants just beginning their eternal life.

    There couldn't be a more accurate picture of life in the Eternal New Covenant age we are in today, then was described by Isaiah & John, prior to it's consumation.

    Although I am intrigued by, and grateful for, your elloquent rebuttal, I stand by my assertions.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
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