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were in daniel ch 9 does it talk about the anti christ???

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by celtic_crusader, Feb 11, 2002.

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  1. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    OOPS, bad spelling and terrible typing
     
  2. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Do you believe that the latter half of 9:27 is related to the latter half of 9:26? Or are they separate unrelated events entirely to you?

    In other words, to you, is this "...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." related to this, "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thunder,
    A couple of things here. From what I understand your position to be, you are claiming that FIRST comes the "Spiritual" Kingdom, then the "Natural".
    Paul, on the other hand, claimed the REVERSE to be true:
    1Co 15:46
    "Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual."

    We ARE in the real Kingdom TODAY.
    The Jews missed Christs First advent because they looked for a Physical King to rule a Natural kingdom.
    Christ Corrected their notion, and they still did not believe:
    Lu 17:20
    "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God COMETH NOT WITH OBSERVATION"

    Don't make the same mistake the Jews made.

    Thunder, your next statement concerns me.
    This is a very dangerous and unscriptural line of thinking that I URGENTLY reccomend you back away from:

    Thunder, Make no mistake, Jesus Christ IS the God of this world TODAY and evermore:
    Ephesians 1:20-21
    Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], FAR ABOVE ALL principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD, but also in that which is to come

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH.

    Revelation 1:5
    ...Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, AND THE PRINCE OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH.

    ALSO...

    Jesus is the eternal, immortal, invisible King of Kings (1 Timothy 6:15, 1 Tim 1:17). ALL dominion and power is His (Eph 1:21, 1 Peter 4:11). He crushed satan's powers and nullified his works via the gospel of our atonement (Heb 2:14-15, 1 John 3:5,8). Jesus judged satan and cast him out back in the first century (John 12:31), and declared him a bound and defeated enemy in Luke 11:19-22. Christ gave the Church, His very own body, His same authority and victory (Matt 16:18-19, Luke 10:19, Matt 9:8, Rev 5:10, Daniel 7:27, Eph 3:10-11)

    I hope you will reconsider you assertation tat Jesus is NOT the "God of this world" Today.
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Placesofrefuge:
    I did my honest best to show that I AM using scripture ALONE to support my claims. If you disagree, PLEASE show me that the scriptures I gave do NOT say what I contend they are saying. Insetad of simply saying "it's unbiblical" give me an alternate interpratation of each individual scripture I gave, so I can learn.


    OK, Your assertion, as I understand it, i that Daniels AoD, Little horn, Pauls Man of Sin, son of perdition, Johns Antichrist, Beast , false prophet are ALL descriptions of ONE SINGLE PERSON.

    That "lumping together" is unbiblical and unsupportable from scripture. I'm sure thats what you were taught to believe, but have you ever checked the scriptures to "see if it is so"?
    Instead of saying "we all know it's true" why don't you show , from scripture, that your "lumping together" is correct.
    I contend it is NOT.

    I have given scripture upon scripture, and you calim my argument is unbiblical and attack me personally, Instead of Showing me, from the Bible, why.

    You, in my opinion, have made one erroneous statment after another, without offering biblical support, yet claim your is the "scriptural truth".

    Time to show your cards.
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Paul isn't speaking of kingdoms, he is speaking of the body. These verses do nothing to prove that prophecy doesn't have both a literal and spiritual fulfillment.

    How ironic, the jews miss the first advent because they are expecting literal, Christians miss the second advent because they are expecting spiritual.

    You stopped one verse short of giving the complete picture of Luke 17. Note, verse 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Jesus used present tense, ie, the kingdom of God was within the hearers at the time Jesus uttered the statement. What else did Jesus say about the kingdom? Let's look at Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return... 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    When does the 'nobleman' receive the kingdom? After he went away.

    Perhaps this seems kinda disjointed, I just got off work and I'm tired... but taken together these verses tell me that God's kingdom existed in the spiritual sense before the death and resurection. Jesus receives the kingdom sometime after his ascension, and the kingdom has a physical manifestion when his enemies are slain.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Willis, I wanted to comment on your stetement : “Just because a prophesy has been fulfilled doesn’t mean it won’t be fulfilled again.” While I find that to be a very wild hermeneutic, I believe your ideas of “multiple fulfillments" are rooted in O.T. TYPES (i.e. foreshadowings of Messiah). The only problem is, the O.T. foreshadowing finds its final fulfillment in the Messianic generation and does not continue to repeat over and over and over again (for Jesus Christ is no "shadow," but is the OBJECT itself - Col 1:17).

    The O.T. prophets did not believe the Messianic advent itself would serve as a TYPE for greater fulfillments beyond it. Is calvary a mere TYPE for some greater redemption in our future from sin? Of course not. The O.T. things foreshadowed N.T. COMPLETIONS. The N.T. things do NOT in turn forshadow some future priesthood, sacrifice for sin, etc. The shadows provided by the O.T. religion and history point to the real object of Christ and the heavenly covenant (Col 1:17; Heb 8:1-5; Heb 9:23-24).

    I commend you for investigating the apostles "hermeneutic" and recognizing how they would quote a verse or two out of the O.T. and apply it to the Messiah while the REST of the context surronding those O.T. verses do not fit with Jesus Christ. You correctly site "Rachel weeping for her children" as having a first meaning contextual to Jeremiah's day. You also rightly notices Isa 7:14 had a first meaning contextual to Isaiah's day. You notice that much of those contexts surrounding those one or two "proof passages" cannot fit Jesus Christ. Correct.

    The "hermenutic" that the apostles had was a "typological" hermenutic. Those O.T. historical events acted as a background that set the Messianic themes (or "TYPES" that Israel would then look for in a coming Messiah. This is basic foreshadowing at work here. The jews saw their national history as FORESHADOWING the life and themes of their future Messiah -- but they could not piece it all together before he came. They had inklings and hunches and nailed down some of the pieces, but much of the details were not clear until it unfolded.

    Jesus said to the rabbis, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have life, yet the scriptures TESTIFY OF ME." This is Jesus pointing them to the TYPOLOGICAL "messianic hermeneutic." We should note, however, that the scriptures only testify of Christ if one reads them with the MESSIANIC or "CHRIST" HERMENUTIC (i.e., this way of reading the O.T. in order to find clues about Israel's Messiah). Furthermore, surely there were competing "messianic hermeneutics" at work in the 1st century. While the apostles recognized that the themes of Israel's history foreshadowed Jesus Christ and his life and death and resurrection, obviously not all jews agreed with the apostles' hermeneutic and many doubted it and openly disputed the apostles' reading of scripture.

    So, concerning Israel's historic events and how the apostles interpreted them, Paul says to his endtime contemporaries: "these things happened to them FOR EXAMPLES, AND WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME!" So here Paul believes the O.T. story he mentions in 1 Cor 10:1-10 was really written down as a foreshadowing of the Messianic generation. We see this exact hermenutical principle also mentioned in 1 Peter 1:10-12, which also applies the O.T. prophetic writings as finding their FULLEST completion in Christ's generation!

    Finally, to prove that the O.T. things don't just repeat over and over and over again, Jesus said that "ALL THINGS WRITTEN WOULD BE FULFILLED" by the time of the Roman Jewish war (Luke 21:20-22). That statement is so absolute. And, if anyone should wonder what the "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" applies to, they only need look to Luke 24:44 to see that it means all the Law, Psalms, and Prophets -- The Old Testament canon! After Jesus is resurrected he tells his disciples that all things written about himself in the O.T. canon must be fulfilled! (Luke 24:44) -- and Luke 21:20-22 tells us WHEN the terminus arrived (Israel's Great Tribulation of 67-70AD).

    Thank you for the exercise! I enjoy the challenge. I do not often find people as knowledgeable as you to test (and ultimately strengthen) my beliefs.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Quickly Willis,
    I absolutely reject the notion that a "Spiritual" fulfillment is somehow NOT Literal.

    The spiritual realm is just as "literal" a reality (and arguably MORE so) than the temporal.

    I imagine you'd agree with me in this, and you weren't attempting to "de-literalize" the eternal spiritual realm, but it kinda sounds like it when you polarize "literal and Spiritual".

    I'm off to work,
    I'll check back tonight!
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  8. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

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    Well preterists, you win, I'm outta here. But I want to write one last post. First of all Southwest Radio Church did an excellent series refuting everything you claim about the Endtime Prophecies to come having already happened. It shoots your well-versed claims full of holes. Many other cults are great at your kinds of tactics, too. Also,ENDTIME, although I don't agree with their posttrib Rapture claims, I believe said if you hit their site, they prove the errors of preterism. I'm not sure, haven't checked. Pastor John Stocker, Resurrection Fellowship, Loveland Colorado, can provide you with excellent arguments against your beliefs. But I sincerely doubt if you care. It's truly sad that you manage to take up so much valuable time and space in this forum, maybe I'll be interested in it again if we have "preterist" and "futurist" only divisions, so we can go about the true informative ministries at hand!
    Rollin' Thunder, I've enjoyed you. However, you recently stated in one post, under another topic, I believe, that you believe the Day of the LORD is the millennium. That can't be scripturally correct. I used to hear from well-meaning preachers who weren't reading thorough accounts all about THAT DAY, where it is called great and terrible, all darkness with no light in it, etc. and they were claiming correctly that it covers the three and one half years preceding the millennium (some said seven years) AND the millennium. But after a thorough Bible study, you will have serious doubts about any part of it going into the wonderful time to come when Jesus will be back on earth. You, however, are correct, Rolling Thunder, in claiming the next event for which we should be be looking is the Rapture,and that we won't be here for that last three and one half years of Antichrist's reign of terror. I even learned from you, Rolling Thunder! If you want to learn more from me, go to one of my two prophecy sites, www.homestead.com/PROPHECYCENTER/prophecycenter.html or www.geocities.com/leecin82007/PROPHECY_CENTER.html and if you are truly looking for ENDTIME PROPHECY knowledge, and I challenge you preterists to read it too; meanwhile I will be hoping to find a forum where I can truly get involved in the things for which I am seeking- although I'm not sure it exists! So I will just keep praying and asking the Lord where He wants to use me next!! LOOK UP, FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR!!!!----Cindy
     
  9. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    You are correct. Perhaps a better choice of wording would have been spiritual/physical.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Willis, thank you for amending this statement to "literal/physical"

    However, Couple things come to mind.

    The Prophesy of "Elijah to come"
    Physical "Elijah" did not come but Christ himself claims that prophesy was Completely fulfilled in a spiritual nature in John the Baptist.(Matt 11:14)

    According to Jesus, No "physical fulfillent" of Elijah himself was needed for "complete fulfillment" of that prophesy.

    Secondly, we are saved by the Blood of Christ, correct?
    Yes it was shed literally, but do you have any? I know I don't. The TRUE POWER is in it's spiritual application.
    We will not present the father with Christs literal blood to be saved, but we are saved by his blood spiritually applied to cover us.

    Gotta split...
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  11. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I'm not sure we can classify John T. Baptist as a spiritual fulfillment. After all, John could be seen, touched, heard, and experienced in a physical way. He himself denied that he was Elijah (an interesting little contradiction). The only 'spiritual' fulfillment needed here is in relation to John's character.

    I am not ignoring your post about multiple fulfillments. I overlooked it earlier and I'm still meditating on my response. It wouldn't do to simply throw up something off the top of my head, that would do an injustice to the discussion which we've had so far.
     
  12. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Being a futurist does not hinge on daniel 9 being fullfilled. One can be a futurist & concede that Dan 9 has been fullfilled. (even tho the Romans destroyed the temple). As mentioned previously, Rev. does state a 3.5 yr period & indicates another=7 yrs. The number 7 itself is relevant in scripture & end time prophecy.
    All futurists are not looking for a 7 year covenant with Israel. I see no need to debate preterism & it's holes. There are several preterist websites/forums.
    The 7 year trib comes from Rev. itself, which, like other new testatment books, was written AFTER 70 a.d, & all failed to mention the 2nd coming of Christ had already occurred,because obviously the 2nd coming of Christ is a future event, occurring after 70 a.d.
    Now I'm sure preterists want to argue about scolars being wrong about when the nt books were written. The mark of the beast in Rev. can not be taken spiritually, then we could all buy a loaf of bread if it were not a physical mark. So if it happened in the past, why didn't the preterist's hero, Josephus, write about it?
    Not all futurists believe in a gap theory, yet have proof from Rev, written after 70 ad, that a 7 yr trib is yet to come.
     
  13. Kjam22

    Kjam22 New Member

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    I'm not certain how a rational person can read Revelation and decide that everything in it has already been fulfilled.
     
  14. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    You are right Kjam22 it can't be done. It doesn't hold water.
     
  15. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Many "rational" people read the Old Covenant, reject the New Covenant, and are still waiting for Messiah.

    This only proves that no matter how rational or irrational a person may be, that person can misinterpret anything in the Bible due to unbelief or lack of revelation and come to conclusions that are in error.
     
  16. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    The key word here is "unbelief" that you posted. It is not rational to deny Jesus was the Messiah. This is not a misinterpretation of a verse.
     
  17. placesofrefuge

    placesofrefuge New Member

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    This is not for preterists, or even post tribbers! Lee is "Placesofrefuge" and I Cindy am the "other half". There has been so much arguing back and forth, and it's detracted from the purpose of these discussions. My strong area is prophecy, and I left this forum in disgust just a little while ago, but less than a week ago, started my OWN forum, completely about ENDTIME PROPHECY, and in the case of people from here, for ONLY those who are pre-trib! If you are interested in joining, and not having to argue so much, email me! As moderator, I get to approve both members and messages, and I will ask when you try to join what your stand is! Looking forward to you SERIOUS pre three and one halfers or even you pre seven yearers! Guaranteed there won't be so much time spent arguing and "point proving"!!
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Simple.
    The Bible teaches, and therefore I believe, that the events of Revelation were ordained to come to pass shortly after they were predicted.

    The Bible said it, I believe it, That settles it!
     
  19. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    How can you rationalize that satan is bound and we are living in peace & safety? How do you rationalize the "no death"? We are living in the new heaven & earth? The judgement books have already been opened is not rational to this Christian.
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    hello there jben,
    I haven't heard from you in a while.
    I would agree that there are still many that are waiting for the Messiah, but to their shame, it is all in vain.
    Jeremiah 6:20 - "What do I care about incense from Sheba or sweet calamus from a distant land? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable; your sacrifices do not please me."
    Jeremiah 6:29 - "The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out." See ya
     
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