were in daniel ch 9 does it talk about the anti christ???

[parousia70]

>>Who is the one who set up the abomination that causes desolation??<<

Quiclky,
notice that it is the abomination causes DESOLATION, and not desecration. (that's one reason Antiochus couldn't have even partially fulfilled Daniels AoD)

Titus and His roman legions DESOLATED the city and the sanctuary.
They also set up their ensigns and worshipped Ceaser at the Eastern Gate (Wing of the Temple)

In this, Daniles AoD was fulfilled exactly as Jesus said it would be.
Luke 21:20-22

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

Either All things written were fulfilled at that time,
or Jesus is a false Prophet.

 

[parousia70]

Oh yeah....
Lest you are tempted to say "all things written" dosent' mean "all things written about Jesus, take a second to compare Luke 21:22 with Luke 18:31 & 24:44

Lu 21:22
For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Lu 18:31
Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.

Lu 24:44
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Jesus himself placed the time of fulfillment of Luke 18:31 & 24:44 at the time when "Jerusalem was surrounded with armies"

The fulfillment of "All things written" can only happen once, or it is no "fulfillment" at all.

 

[placesofrefuge]

The very same Abomination of Desolation, or the abomination that makes desolate mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is clarified in several scriptures. If you look at Daniel 11:31 you will notice an exact SAME description as the one in chapter 9, and it very specifically clarifies who does it- the coming Antichrist- and that it's in the LAST DAYS! Antiochus Epiphanes was a form of this kind of abominator, but you cannot deny that Daniel 9:27 is about a time yet future. More? Daniel 12:11 mentions this same ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, and gives a time frame of DAYS LEFT, and clarifies AT THE TIME OF THE END! MORE? Matt. 24 describes the "BIRTH PANGS", which are going on before "the end" and which we are seeing now, and which by the way equate with the first 5 seal judgments in Rev. 6, and then v. 14 says "then shall THE END COME", then v. 15, when "the end" is come, mentions THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION! And just to clarify, it tells you this is the very incident of which Daniel the prophet had spoken! Verse 16 says for the people to flee from Judea immediately upon having seen the Antichrist at the temple committing this abomination, and woe to pregnant women. "The end" is described as the last three and one half years, a time which we, the Church now, will be removed beforehand, and a time like never before. It will be a revealing of the Antichrist, and the reason it's called "desolation" is because the Jews who accept Jesus at that time and flee to the mountains of Petra, will be vacating and others staying there, the old testament, tells us, will be mostly killed, and Jerusalem (where the temple mount is located) will be trodden down by the Gentiles, etc., there's lots more, but I don't like to get into arguments with people who try to claim this has already all happened. They aren't really trying to look at the scriptures, anyway, and usually just try to keep arguing and sidetracking! I'm just tired of you're going after Rolling Thunder, so decided to jump in with my own contribution. AND the Abomination of desolation is mentioned some more times, but you get the idea. THAT PART OF DANIEL 9:27 is yet to come, in case you really care!----placesofrefuge

 

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Hello jbenjesus,
I thought this thread was about Daniel 9, but now you are raising questions about chapters 7 and 8 as well. I believe this will really confuse everyone, because now, instead of settling the issue at hand, we will then start arguing things that don't even pertain to this thread.

Now, I will agree to go slow, with no long posts and a thousand questions. If you want to try that, then I will start with a question. Just one at a time. My question is directed at celtic, jbenjesus, and parousia70, but not necessarily in that order, BUT, I would like an answer from all of you. I really don't like the way someone else has been jumping in there for someone else. If you like, the second and third people to reply may just say that they would agree with what the first one said. Now, if we are still in agreement here, then lets begin with the questions, but if there are long posts with many questions, I will choose to ignore that post. Here is my question.

I want to know who do all of you say is - Who is the one who set up the abomination that causes desolation??

Now remember, the question is for all of you, individually.

Thunder... you've already made up your mind. This question has been answered several times by me and others. I will not answer you again. It's already made up in your mind and you will not try another perspective so, at this point, with you, I simply ask that you read the whole thread, from beginning to end again.

I don't control the direction of this thread. Celtic started it (I think) and he asked me about chapter 8, which I answered, and chapter 7. I didn't raise questions about 7 or 8. Someone else did.

 

[parousia70]

Placesofrefuge,
I appriciate,and understand and you're views, and willl fight for your right to express them, even though they are views I do not share.
I understand that you believe your views on this subject are grounded in scripture, and again, I absolutely respect your right to express them.
Is it really too much to ask the same treatment from you?
Perhaps we can agree to disagree, remembering that this issue is really a "side issue" and has no bearing on our salvation.

That being said, I would like to address a few of your most elloquent and thoughtful points, and attempt to show, from scripture, why I believe differently. OK?

Originally posted by placesofrefuge
The very same Abomination of Desolation, or the abomination that makes desolate mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is clarified in several scriptures. If you look at Daniel 11:31 you will notice an exact SAME description as the one in chapter 9, and it very specifically clarifies who does it- the coming Antichrist- and that it's in the LAST DAYS!

You said Daniel very specifically states that the AoD is done by the "antichrist". I looked all through Daniel and "antichrist" is not mentioned anywhere.
As far as I can see, this is simply a supposition on your part.
Could you clarify the scriptures that you use to determine that Daniel is talking about "THE Antichrist"?

Next you mantioned it is in the "Last Days"
On This point, I can find no disagreement with for the Apostles taught that THEY were in fact living in those very "last Days".

Hebrews 1:1-2 (Caps added by me for emphasis)
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 HAS IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Peter, at the time of pentacost, declares to his audience that they are witnessing the fulfillment of "last days" prophesy before their very eyes!;

Acts 2:16-17
16 But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

you cannot deny that Daniel 9:27 is about a time yet future.

Actually, I can and do.

Matt. 24 describes the "BIRTH PANGS", which are going on before "the end" and which we are seeing now.

Jesus, in Matt 24, spoke of things that THE DISCIPLES would see in THEIR generation, directly answering their question about the timing of destruction of the Temple that He prophesied in verse 23. He and the disciples DIRECTLY linked the temples destruction with the "end of the age" and the "parousia coming" of Christ.

One of the most important hermeneutical principles of scripture interpratation is "AUDIENCE RELEVANCE". ALL scripture MUST have meaning and relevance to the ORIGINAL AUDIENCE or it can have NO meaning to anyone. When Jesus said to the disciples "When YOU see these things, know that I am near, even at the doors" He was in fact Talking TO the disciples.

In fact, Jesus was very clear that only WHEN the disciples saw the signs, would they know and be able to proclaim that he was "Near & At the doors" NOT BEFORE they saw the signs, but WHEN they saw them.

James, Teaching some 30 odd years later, States plainly that Jesus was , at that time in fact "Near & At the door"(James 5:8-9)

Now, James was instructed By Jesus 30 odd years before that He would NOT be near and at the door UNTILL JAMES SAW THE SIGNS!!!

Why was James teaching that Christ was "Near & at the door" if James hadn't SEEN the signs?
Was James Wrong?

You said "we are seeing the birth pangs now"
Are you qualified to proclaim any specific event is the fulfillement of prophesy the way the apostle Peter, under infallible inspiration, was?
Am I qualified?
Is Every Christian qualified to say which specific events going on today are fulfilling prophesy and which are not?

Judging by the vastly differing endtimes views among bonafied members of the "Body of Christ", I'd say no.
All we can go back to is scripture, and the scriptural record is unanamous that ONLY the apostles were ever qualified to proclaim that an event fulfilled prophesy, so we must look to them alone, and they ALL believed and taught that the "END of the world" had come upon THEM, that THEY were living in the last days, and That the world was already "passing away" and the TIME was SHORT!
All we need do is simply BELIEVE them.

1 Cor. 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. ("are come" is in the "present indicitave tense" which means that the action being described, in this case the 'end of the world' was UNDERWAY at the time the author wrote or spoke)

1 Cor. 7:29-31
29 But this I say, brethren, THE TIME IS SHORT, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of THIS WORLD IS PASSING AWAY.(again, "IS PASSING AWAY" is in the "present indicative tense" indicating something CURRENTLY UNDERWAY at the time of authorship.

I don't like to get into arguments with people who try to claim this has already all happened. They aren't really trying to look at the scriptures, anyway, and usually just try to keep arguing and sidetracking!

Placesofrefuge, I hope I have demonstrated that I am in fact using the scriptures alone to support my claims. You do not have to agree with my conclusions, but please try to accept that I am honest and sincere in my beliefs and study.

It is clear that we both love the Lord with all our hearts.
Lets not let this side issue divide us as members of Christs Body, but lets strive to learn from one another to GROW in Christs Glory!

YBIC,
p70

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hello parousia70,
Okay you say that it was Titus in AD 70, that set up the abomination that caused desolation. Now I am waiting on celtics answer, and also will give jben some more time to maybe change his mind and answer. Are the rules okay with you. I would like your input to be fair. The way things were going before, there were too many questions going unanswered because, they were all jammed in one post. It should be a little slower this way, but much better, and with more answers.

 

[celtic_crusader]

Hi thunder,
First, the subject of Dan ch 8 and 7 , I bought up between me and Jben and you don’t have to enter that if you don’t wish to THUNDER.

Bjen I will check my PM and get back to you there.

Secondly, THUNDER sorry for the long posts but I am still waiting on an answer from you on a question that I have asked you 3 times now and you have ignored it???

I will answer your question and then I will ask my question to you personally for the fourth time and you will finally answer that??????? Or I wont answer your next question thunder as you have avoided every single question that I have put to you even though I have read every single word you wrote.

If you set these rules thunder, answer my questions first??

“my questian has been for pages now”;

can you show me in scripture were it talks about a 7 yr tribulation with antichrist in it that is not using dan ch 9???

That was always my question thunder.

Hear is my answer;

Who is the one who set up the abomination that causes desolation??

This is an unfair question and if I answer simply you will understand zipp!!

At least make your question scriptural thunder so I can answer it.

Please read all of this even if it gets long or is this the answer that you are looking for that will do nothing but confuse you.

"It was jesus, Titus and the Roman armys".

That answers nothing thunder.

Please listen to me hear. Read the two scriptures that are in Dan 9 concerning the abomination that brings desolation and you will see why your question is put unfairly and then I will answer your question the long way by explaining to you what I believe these two scriptures mean as a whole and then you will understand were I am coming from.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: = “jesus is crucified for the sins of the world and becomes the sacrifice for all sin”

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. = Because the Jews crucified jesus (the abomination of the Jews) the Romans under Titus (very much a prince at the time) came in with a flood and the Jews abomination brought the determined desolations. (Jesus said,” your house is left unto you desolate and there will be not one stone upon another”.)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease = jesus again confirms the covenant and is crucified half way through confirming it and therefore becomes the sacrifice for our sins and therefore makes the daily sacrifice of no affect as he has become that sacrafise. he also causes the oblations to cease because he brings in the new testament (covenant).

And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate = for the over spreading of the abominations of the Jewish people Titus shall make it desolate at the word of jesus when he said to the Jews for there overspread of there abominations your house is left unto you, desolate. And so it was.

Read this all thunder, you can’t see were I am at if you don’t read my stuff.

Read this in Mathew carefully and see that Jesus tells them that they are left desolate because of there abominations. He also goes on straight after this to tell his disciples about how the temple will be destroyed in their generation and so it was.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 and say, if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye are witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them, which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariahs son of Abrachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stoniest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathered her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So this is what I believe the abomination that will bring desolation was;

The abomination was the Jews and their ways and the crucifixion of Jesus and the prophets as well and this brings desolation by Titus in 70 ad as thes desolations were determined by jesus..

If you wish to address the saying AoD, we will need to do it by verse not a church saying THUNDER so this is my explanation on Dan 9 and the AoD.

 

[jbenjesus]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
Hello jbenjesus,
I thought this thread was about Daniel 9, but now you are raising questions about chapters 7 and 8 as well. I believe this will really confuse everyone, because now, instead of settling the issue at hand, we will then start arguing things that don't even pertain to this thread.

Now, I will agree to go slow, with no long posts and a thousand questions. If you want to try that, then I will start with a question. Just one at a time. My question is directed at celtic, jbenjesus, and parousia70, but not necessarily in that order, BUT, I would like an answer from all of you. I really don't like the way someone else has been jumping in there for someone else. If you like, the second and third people to reply may just say that they would agree with what the first one said. Now, if we are still in agreement here, then lets begin with the questions, but if there are long posts with many questions, I will choose to ignore that post. Here is my question.

I want to know who do all of you say is - Who is the one who set up the abomination that causes desolation??

Now remember, the question is for all of you, individually.

Specify chapter and verse of Daniel regarding the abomination that causes desolation? Just so there are no misunderstandings.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Okay jben,
Good catch, my fault. Daniel 9 :27.
I was assuming we all knew that, but maybe we shouldn't assume. Good point, sorry. So does this mean that you want to participate??

 

[celtic_crusader]

I am only going to partisipate if you read what is writen thunder.

you can start by answering my question for the 5th time

was that short enough???

peace

celtic

 

[Willis Deal]

p70

I respect your opinion and you have obviously read and studied this topic. I consider you a brother and out of love I would caution that you are treading a very fine line which should not be crossed. IF futurists are correct, and these things happen again how would these events make Jesus a false prophet? Please reconsider your stand that you are absolutely correct and if proven wrong it makes God a liar. That probably isn't what you meant to say but it is certainly the implication of what you wrote.

Perhaps I should give these forums a rest for a few days lest I provoke someone to sin.

 

[Willis Deal]

CC,

Before I go I'd like to come to thunder's defense a bit. It appears he is having trouble coming up with the verse for the seven year tribulation period. Taking away the verses in Daniel I can think of no other scripture which specificly states the period to be seven years, but there is at least that implication in Revelation. Several events are described as having lasted 3.5 years, and while these events may overlap or happen simultaneously we cannot discount the possibility of at least some of them being consecutive giving by implication a seven year time period. This should not seem too presumptive given the common theme of the number 7 in revelation, as in 7 angels with 7 trumpets, and 7 vials, and 7 churches etc.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

You weren't the only one to not get answers celtic. Hey, we don't even have to do this, who cares. Game over. There, that was easy. See ya.

 

[placesofrefuge]

I don't even look at the long drawn out anti-Biblical tired old space consuming diatribes by the ones who keep insisting Daniel 9:27 has happened already, which recently has left only me, Rolling Thunder and a few others even worth reading. The last comments were worthwhile, however, and I will repeat something I said A LONG TIME ago in this same topic, before being completely overlooked by the aforementioned bunch. I sort of wish we had two subheadings - one for the ones who want to claim it's all happened already, and for us, so we could move on! Anyway, referring to the seven years, Daniel 9:27 definitely does discuss a seven year time period, for the confirmation of the covenant. I assume all agree. But it will be broken in the "midst" and traditional prophecy teachers have claimed that has to be three and one half years into it. Not so. The "midst" can be just shortly into it, and the only thing repeated sure in the scriptures
is that the Antichrist's reign, and to you accusers, he is called many things besides Antichrist, but all know who the man of perdition and all of the other things he is called is! (The word "Bible is not mentioned in the Bible, either, but we see where it's referred to, and I could use that same example for lots of words!) anyway, back to what I was saying, his reign will be three and one half years, and that WILL come after the covenant is broken, and before the second coming. But I'll tell you what, I appreciate Rolling Thunder with his claim of seven years, because you can actually have a sensible written discussion with him, and you can point things out to each other. Glad to see a few more defending him, because he's being truly attacked and ignored by the monopolizers who need their OWN site!!---placesofrefuge

 

[celtic_crusader]

You weren't the only one to not get answers Celtic. Hey, we don't even have to do this, who cares. Game over. There, that was easy. See yam.

Yea, every one wants to teach and none wants to read and learn hay thunder???

I have had enough of debating Christian doctrines that have 3 different beliefs to what the bible says and with all the discussion we get no wear.

So, I am not only giving up on those that don’t read and only want to teach but I am also leaving the forum as I can relate to your frustration and can see that I am waiting valuable time talking about a book that has a multitude of interpretations and none even knows what it says.

Can we get the truth from the bible???

I am realising from being on this forum that it is impossible to find truth by going to a bible.

If the bible was the truth then we would read it and come to the same understanding, so, since no Christians can agree on the doctrines of the book

I give up on this forum and the bible because of the hopelessness in trying to get any truth at all from it?????

see ya all

celtic crusader , over and out.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Wasn't it last night that you told me not to get discouraged?? Well friend, I guess I should return the advice. Sometimes we get intercepted by people with bad attitudes, and some argue just for the sake of it. But you celtic, I always thought that you were truly seeking what the Lord would have you know. Things aren't always what they seem. You are on the ight track. Or maybe this would sound better. You were running a good race, who cut in on you and made you stumble?? I hope I quoted that right, it was from memory. Hang in there celtic.

 

[Willis Deal]

I know I said I was going to give it a rest but with a brother in trouble I cannot in good conscience remain silent.

CC,

I was where you are now. I felt compelled to study prophecy and there are a multitude of theories and explanations and it can be overwhelming. I tried the 'spiritual' or symbolic approach considering that prophecy doesn't necessarily mean what it literally says, but quickly abandoned that approach upon realizing that if it doesn't mean what it says then it can mean anything and is useless. I tried again by studying the way prophesy has been fulfilled in the past but again realized I'd need to spend my life studying history instead of the bible. I tried the futurist approach projecting all prophecies into the future but was haunted by what I'd learned from the spiritual implications and what I knew had already been fulfilled.

I poured my heart out to God, seeking the truth. He told me immediately 'They all are'.

hmm...? So I went back to my bible with new eyes, and saw what was before me the whole time. Prophecy can have both a spiritual and literal aspect. It can be past, present, and future. Our problem is that as individuals we grasp one aspect of the truth we understand and then declare it to be the whole truth because it is all that we understand. We fail to grasp the enormity of what God is revealing about himself. We see His hands and we grasp those because we understand it, and in grasping too tight we fail to see His face. Rolling Thunder has the truth. p70 has the truth. RT's truth does not make p70's truth false, and P70's truth doesn't make RT's truth false. It is only when we can see how both are true that we begin to see the majesty of God's prophecies.

 

[celtic_crusader]

thanks for the encouragement thunder and willis.

I have read the bible over and over and then read the apocrapha of the old and new testaments and then read the church fathers and in the end there seems to be a major confusion in the christian faith to what the bible says the truth is.

so if we can`t establish the truth from scripture then we can`t desifer the truth.

3 doctrines to every biblical belief???

I do apresiate the incouragement though guys I am just tiered of the diffrent understandings of the same scriptures???

jesus is the word of truth , that is obvious to me , the holy ghost was given to me to lead me into the truth of jesus , so were does the bible actualy say that the bible is the word of god???.

another subject

I just need a bit of time out I think to try to understand why there are so many diffrent beliefs about the same scriptures in all the christian doctrines , not just prophesy.

biblical prophesy is frustrating though because it is based on future or past events.

god bless

peace

celtic.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I can see where parousia is coming from, that the kingdom is already here. But, it is only spiritual so far. This isn't the Kingdom to come. Eternity begins on the day of salvation for each believer, which for me was 11 years ago. When the real Kingdom comes, I would hope to be coming with it, and to rule and reign with Jesus.

About the 3 1/2 years. Jesus' ministry was cut short, and I believe that He still has another 3 1/2 years to gather His own. After the first 3.5 He was cut off as Messiah, but that opened up the Age of Grace. After the age of Gods grace comes to an end, then will begin the 7 year tribulation. I believe that Jesus will still be gathering His believers, but for only 3.5 years (first half of trib.), and that these believers in the trib will are be martyrs. Then, the door in heaven will be shut, and no more will enter into Gods rest. Meanwhile, they will be fighting to survive on earth, and of all the survivors, the sheep will enter into the millenium in their mortal bodies, and the goats will be removed for judgment.

Satan is the god of this world, and his best days will be in the first half of the trib, when he really thinks that he is something. But when he enters into the temple, the whole world will know that he is the fake, but it will be too late. He will have nothing but trouble after that. A MAJOR HEADACHE. The whole world will be at war, and coming against Israel, and each other. Satan, who will take over the Anti-christs body for the 2nd half of the trib, will have nothing but trouble from then on. Man will not be able to kill him, but Jesus will when He returns at the end of the 7 years.

Thats how I see the 7 years. Jesus has His, and Satan has his. And they overlap eachother.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I should have said, that the separating of the sheep and goats will be after the end of the tribulation, and after Chris second coming. I wasn't clear on that, so now you have it.