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Were Adam and Eve Saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Palmfever, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. Palmfever

    Palmfever New Member

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    We can toss scripture at each other until we bleed. I have a few things on this subject which I will simply post here. They deal more with the character of God and His foreknowledge and reason for creation. The sacrifice of His Son prior to creation.

    Were Adam and Eve saved?

    I’ve found some who actually seem to resent Adams misstep as if they would not have made that or any other mistake. That is a mistake in itself. Only one person was and is flawless. Christ.

    So, did Adam remain in God’s favor after his expulsion from the garden? I prefer to believe yes.

    I find it incongruous given God’s character of love, grace and forgiveness that Adam and Eve would be eternally damned after their initial mistake? Technically, while they had an edict from God concerning the tree of knowledge, God made no effort to constrain them, rather they were given the freedom to act in accordance with their own will. In their naivete they had no concept of good and evil. How could they? Evil had not yet exposed itself to the innocent Adam and Eve. It was this very act of disobedience which awoke the awareness in them, this action, was wrong. ( I know that is difficult to grasp, since God had given a direct command.)

    No opportunity for redemption remains available if we, having once acted in error, are eternally excluded from a relationship with God? None would be saved. God may as well have destroyed Adam and Eve, then retained creation for himself. Or, eliminate that also. The creation of humanity would have been an exercise in futility. God, in His foreknowledge, (One may reasonably conclude,) would have aborted His desire to pursue the creation of mankind in its current form. Indeed He did regret having done so at one point. However this, is not our history. Humanity has of necessity, inherently been instilled with the freedom to choose compliance, and not to respond simply in the predetermined, coded, obsequious manner of fawning sycophants. This is made clear in the narrative of first man. Redemption from inevitable future missteps was anticipated, bad decisions were provided for, prior to creation. “The lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth.” And also, 1 Peter, 1:20 “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.”

    One might argue that since God chose to create man, mankind were chosen, as indeed they were. This is not random life, born of chaos, without purpose, as science would have us believe. This is a calculated, well considered decision to make man in His image. Why does He desire that none should perish? His investment is consummate. His sacrifice complete. The intrinsic quality of self determination was essential, regardless the risk. “Yes,” has no value if a man has not the option of saying, “No.”

    For what purpose did Christ relate the story of the prodigal son if once the son had chosen to exit the relationship, that relationship would be permanently broken? The story of the prodigal son is not such a story. It is not restricted simply to the sins of a son. It is a visage of God, a portrayal of our Fathers response to the wrong choice of a dearly loved son. A beloved member Who lived in this fathers heart, and home. “For this my son was dead, and is alive again, was lost and is found…” Luke 15:24

    It is a story of Gods redemptive overtures, His desire for the restoration of a right relationship when His loved ones fail. This fathers love neither faltered, nor failed when his son chose pleasure over home and family. God allowed the prodigal son to chose his direction, then taught him the pitfalls in a life of self service and self satisfaction apart from his father.

    Why the story of Hosea and Gomer? It’s a testimony of God’s heart for His people, his creation. A portrayal of mercy, forgiveness, and His abiding love and desire for restoration. Hosea was a mere player in the lesson God wished to convey.

    Why does Paul encourage believers to restore those who have fallen? A man is sleeping with his fathers wife. This act surely is a sin which will bring death if not repented of. What is Paul’s concluding advice? Treat him as an outsider and in love woo him back into fellowship. The Spirit of God courts his sons and daughters. The church is, “The Bride of Christ.” When those invited rejected the invitation, the call went out to all found. Mat 22.

    My determination pertaining to the unpardonable, the unforgivable sin is thus, a failure to repent. The failure to move from a self directed life, to a God directed life. “The devils also believe, and tremble.” Yes, however, the devils, do not submit. The great danger in a life of continual sin is as we grieve/quench the Spirit of God, we increase proportionately toward self direction. Reliant on oneself, we then seek and trust less on God’s Spirit as we cauterize our connection.

    Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? Rom, 6:16

    Gen, 4. And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord… Eve clearly still believed and considered the Lord. She as the mother of all living, was grateful for the gift of a son and it was clear to her from the hand of whom it came.

    Gen, 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again and she bare a son and called his name Seth; for God, she said, has appointed me another son instead of Abel whom Cain slew. This is 130 years from Adams creation. Eve still displays a relationship with God and gives Him the glory and thanks.

    Subsequent to Adams fall, while yet in the garden, as they had became aware of their nakedness, God killed animals and made a covering for both Adam and Eve. Why shed blood? They had already made coverings of plants. Why did God favor Abel’s sacrifice of the firstborn of his sheep and not Cains plant offering? Is a pattern beginning to emerge from Adam and Eves sin, up to the day of Christ’s sacrifice? God then, provided the covering for sin by shedding of blood. God covered their shame. Christ ultimately covers all. “For a testament to be in effect, there must also be the death of the testator.” Heb, 9:16

    We don’t know much of Adam and Eve, but what we do know about their offspring is that they had a mother who believed and expressed gratitude toward God, and from them sprang both men of faith, and yes, self centered, self aggrandizing, self directed men. The only way to be true to yourself, is to “die to self.” …“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. Mat, 16:24-25

    1 Tim, 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. If Adam was not deceived, he then willfully disobeyed regardless of his inexperience and lack of understanding. I’m not attempting to assign blame, for they were one. God, told Adam, Adam told Eve, Eve disobeyed Adam and consequently God. God held them both accountable. Perhaps this, explains why Satan chose Eve as his initial target. Satan utilizes our vulnerabilities, those chinks in our armor, our loved ones and those closest to us as a point of entry, a method for deception.

    We graciously however have been provided many examples for our benefit. We’ve been made aware of the wiles of the devil, the pitfalls into which ancestral believers stumbled. We hear the ever present voice of Gods Spirit directing and encouraging, drawing us forward in discernment and faith. When we walk with the Lord, we walk in His protection, and thrive in His care. “His Word is a lamp unto our feet.”

    Rev, 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

    “Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and him with me.” Rev, 3:20

    I know no man who can claim a perfect existence. Neither you, nor I are innocent apart from God’s work within us through Christ. So I reiterate my faith in Gods grace. Then in the garden, as now, Christ covers our shame. And while I have no concrete vision of heaven I do in hope anticipate, a meeting in heaven with those who have gone before. Including Adam and Eve. “Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Cor, 2:9.

    Man was made perfect as a per Gods design, he was not made infallible.
     
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  2. 1an

    1an Newbie

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    They were thrust out from the presence of God and into a wicked world where one of their sons killed another of their sons. No, that is not heaven, it is more like the place where Satan dwells, hell on earth, the god of this world.
     
  3. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm in agreement with the Greek Orthodox Church as to what became of Adam & Eve during Christ's victory over death. That story is in this pictorial:

    resurrection2.jpg

    The Resurrection | Icon of Victory

    Quoting from the linked article:

    Christ is risen from the dead,
    Trampling down death by death,
    And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
    -Paschal (Easter) Hymn

    Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished.

    In the Icon, Jesus Christ stands victoriously in the centre. Robed in Heavenly white, He is surrounded by a mandorla of star-studded light, representing the Glory of God. Christ is shown dramatically pulling Adam, the first man, from the tomb. Eve is to Christ’s left, hands held out in supplication, also waiting for Jesus to act. This humble surrender to Jesus is all Adam and Eve need to do, and all they are able to do. Christ does the rest, which is why He is pulling Adam from the tomb by the wrist, and not the hand. - The Resurrection | Icon of Victory
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  4. Josheb

    Josheb Christian Supporter

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    Let me first affirm the last sentence of this op. The first two humans were not infallible. However, the were perfectly incomplete. 1 Corinthians informs us they were "sown mortal and corruptible," not "already-dead and corrupted."
    There are a few things incorrect within this op.

    The claim Adam and Eve were naive and therefore ignorant is first and foremost a false-cause fallacy. Naivety is not always ignorance; it is often simply a different form of knowledge and knowing. Fundamentally, what you're trying to do is understand a state of sinless lack of experiential knowledge from a position of sinful ignorance. There is knowledge by contrast and knowledge by experience. When Adam disobeyed God he experienced sin and he experienced the changed from sinlessness to sinfulness. No one since Genesis 3:7 has ever had that experience. We are all born with the influence sin an inherent part of our being. Adam and Eve were the last two humans (apart from Jesus) to know and exist in the goodness all the rest of us lack. We are the ignorant ones.

    Genesis 1:31 states quite plainly everything God made in the first six days was "very good." We are also told that Adam and Eve (A&E) were naked and unashamed. Romans 5 tells us it was through the one man's disobedience that sin and death entered the world. So.... what we necessarily know about the pre-disobedient A&E is that they were 1) good, 2) unashamed, and 3) sinless.

    This provides them with a unique position no human has had since then; a unique position for perceiving, knowing, experiencing, and understanding the world as God made it. We are the ignorant ones, not the pre-disobedient A&E!

    Simply put, the pre-disobedient Adam and the pre-disobedient Eve could have and should have understood that which was not-good simply because it was not good. Notice the hyphen. They were made good. Anything different than good could, would, and should instantly be recognized as somehow different, as not-good. It is a plain and simple dialectic; thesis and antithesis. The comparative analogy is the purported training Secret Service agents receive learning how to recognize counterfeit money by becoming so familiar with the genuine article they are instantly able to recognize the counterfeit simply because it is recognized as not-genuine. They are (reportedly) never exposed to the fake bill until they have become so thoroughly knowledgeable of that which is good, pure, and..... sinless.

    So you and I and every other Christian should understand A&E's goodness was not an ignorant naivety, but a naivety of knowledge of goodness that lacked shame and sin, and was thereby a naivety of liberty by which they were in fact empowered - if they so choose - to fulfill the first command: "...subdue the earth and rule over it." They were given authority over all of the plants and animals in the Garden...... the snake was an animal in the Garden. They were not ignorant nor powerless.

    And theologians have understood this for centuries. I first read about this in a book written in the late 60's; "The God Who is There," by Francis Schaeffer. Writers such as Alvin Plantinga, C. S. Lewis, Lesslie Newbigin, and Cornelius Van Til have articulated the same understanding. I suggest you start with Schaeffer's trilogy.

    Consider some evidence that might help you understand they weren't as ignorant as some make them out to be: They clearly understood language. When God spoke to them His words would have been jibberish had they not already possessed a knowledge of language and meaning. We know they were able to repeat what was commanded because Eve repeats the second command and adds to what was previously stated. In other words, by adding to the command she demonstrates an understanding of language and meaning. Some have argued they had no knowledge of death, but the death consequent to sin was not physical death. Adam and Eve were mortal. We know this because 1) immortal creatures cannot die, 2) they would have had no need for a tree of life, and 3) 1 Cor. 15 tells us they were sown mortal and corruptible, not immortal and incorruptible. So think about that reality. If a cow, for example, stepped off a cliff and plummeted to its instant abrupt stop at the foot of the cliff would it have survived impact? Were the laws of physics so different in Eden that the impact of gravity was suspended? Were cows, chickens, fish immortal? Were the corpses of dead plants and animals just sitting around Eden without any of the ordinary processes of decomposition by which their bodies were broken down and used as nutrients for new growth? As Adam and Eve grew the Garden beyond its original boundaries and subdued the entire earth were they going to need clothing for the colder climates? Isit not likely they might have killed cotton plants in order to make clothing? Or slaughtered animals for their hide, again to make clothing? So if they understood the death of an animal in both accidental and deliberate ways then they understood the idea of their own demise.

    Adam and Eve were not ignorant. Their naivety was not ignorance and it certainly need not have made them powerless but instead exactly the opposite.
     
  5. Palmfever

    Palmfever New Member

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    Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    I don’t see this as an implication here when God says, “ the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”. It seems pretty clear. He is become.

    Merriam Webster, Become:

    1. to come into existence

    to come to be

    2. to undergo change or development

    Adam came to know good and evil.
    God Bless
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    IF... the 1995 dream given to Pastor Rick Joyner was from God.... then..... YES.

    A message from Adam to all of humanity?! Does this sound legitimate to you???


    In my opinion.... I think that Adam and Eve were Saved... but I admit that I am biased.
     
  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    IF... the "Book of Adam and Eve" that was preserved into our time period in the Coptic Ethiopian language was accurate on a par with the other books in the apocryphe then........

    ... it seems that no other murder after Cain murdering Abel occurred on the mountain where Adam and his faithful descandants lived...... until after the time of Adam's death..... which in my opinion indicates nothing short of a miracle plus a high level of guidance by the Holy Spirit.......
     
  8. Palmfever

    Palmfever New Member

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    Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    I don’t see this as an implication here when God says, “ the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”. It seems pretty clear. He is become.

    Merriam Webster, Become:

    1. to come into existence

    to come to be

    2. to undergo change or development

    Adam came to know good and evil.
    God Bless
     
  9. Josheb

    Josheb Christian Supporter

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    I'm not sure whether this post to which I now reply is intended to affirm what I previously posted or dissent, but I've already addressed this matter. Please go back and re-read what I posted. Note the distinction between knowledge by contrast or comparison and knowledge by experience. Note also that what you've done is proof-text a single verse. Removing Genesis 3:22 from its context - the context of a now sinful world instead of the previously sinless world - will always lead to failed understanding. Adam (and Eve) now knew evil experientially, not merely by contrast. Having learned of evil experientially he was no lonager able to correctly know by way of contrast as he had originally been made to do. God, of course, knows both good and evil in all ways; in an already sinful world He creates evil (Isa. 45:7).
     
  10. Josheb

    Josheb Christian Supporter

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    We do not know for sure because scripture does not speak to such an occurrence directly, so any answer will necessarily be speculative.

    However, any attempt to answer the question will first have to ask, "Saved from what?" and, of course, the answer the Bible states is 1) sin, and 2) the commensurate wrath of God. Furthermore, we necessarily understand there is only one means of salvation from sin and wrath: grace through faith in the resurrected Son. So this means we must have some evidence God had saving grace on Adam and Eve (A&E) and A&E had faith in the resurrected Son.

    We do know they had some awareness of Jesus because the Tree of Life is in Eden and they are told the seed of a woman will crush the serpent's head. We also know God did have grace on them because 1) He did not slay them instantly and 2) He covered them Himself, symbolically indicated the blood sacrifice that would eventually cover all sin. Whether or not A&E understood any of this soteriologically is unstated but we do know that their first progeny, Cain and Abel, understood the matter of sacrificial offering and by the time of Seth men began to call upon the Lord.

    Evidence, but not conclusive. Many have believed in God and not been saved. Many have believed in Jesus and not been saved (Mt. 7:23).
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Again with the false teacher bit....
    The text in what you quoted he said makes it clear he did not hear from God nor have a Godly experience.
    Worse than biased... very much contrary to Scripture in your posts just in this thread !
    It was not and is not Scripture, so it is "on par", not inspired, with many other books.
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I just want to tell, they did have some concept, because:

    When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit of it, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.
    Gen. 3:6

    The tree was called the tree of good and evil knowledge, but it is possible that it was just Satan’s lie that it gives some knowledge. Obviously, as a result, they also got knowledge, but perhaps the tree was only what God told about it.
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    They EXPERIENCED SIN, REBELLION, and SHAME.
    THus
    "Experiential KNOWLEDGE" of wickedness/ sin/ disobedience,
    which is not something to seek nor to desire nor to hope for.
     
  14. Palmfever

    Palmfever New Member

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    Nah, God referred to it this way: Gen, 2:16 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
    And contrary to another assertion the following scripture is God speaking and not some out of context quote. Much biblical scripture is written by inspired men about God. This is God speaking and He is never isolated, nor out of context.
    Genesis, 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    It seems pretty clear. He is become.

    Merriam Webster, Become:
    1. to come into existence

    to come to be
    2. to undergo change or development

    Adam came to know good and evil. When they ate the fruit. While It is true they were commanded not to eat, and I know it is hard to understand, God's Word is his word and I feel no compulsion to say it does not say what it clearly does.
    Can't say I completely grasp the concept, but there it is.

    Satan used, as he still does, the truth sprinkled with a lie.
    Gen, 3:5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Genesis, 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
    God Bless
     
  15. Palmfever

    Palmfever New Member

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    Read it...
     
  16. Josheb

    Josheb Christian Supporter

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    ?
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Yes. Isn't the story of that pictorial based on the early church writing of the Gospel of Nicodemus (the harrowing of hell) in which Christ when he went to the realm of the dead between his crucifixion and resurrection searched until he found Adam and Eve and took them by the hand and led them out with all (or most) following in his train?
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I have often wondered how all this would have played out if Adam had refused to eat after Eve had. --- "No thanks, Honey; I'm stuffed. I couldn't eat another bite." - lol
     
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