- Dec 1, 2013
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not to stir things, but we choose as well. We choose to sin, we can choose not to sin as well, in fact in the power of the HS we can be without sin. The key is to be in constant fellowship with God...how is that different from Adam and Eve? We just had a longer discussion about this on the other thread...don't want to just beat my opinion as if I have some special place on here, so if we need to talk more about it, let me know. I see no reason to assume that Adam and Eve were no more or less able to choose sin than we are, the only difference is that we have God living in us and empowering us to choose not to sin whereas they were walking and talking face to face with God in the times they chose not to sin. in our own strength...that is the key, sure we need to be in fellowship with God to be sin free, but how is that not also true of Adam and Eve, the difference being how we are in fellowship. but...other than how that fellowship happens, what is the difference? we will also be in face to face fellowship...so we still need that fellowship, we still need that focus on God...in fact, scripture talks a lot about glory and very little about heaven itself. you know me, I don't buy into what others tell me to believe, I base it on what scripture tells me. at this point, the only thing I don't get it how a different means of fellowship equals a difference in choice? other than the above, I am at the same place, I think I understand your position, at this point, can't agree with it, cause I still see no real difference, only a difference in how that is carried out.
Well, if I have made myself understood, and that's what you were asking, then I'm satisfied. You certainly don't have to agree with me, and I'm fine with that.
BTW, I do just want to say, I did not survey what the churches said and decide to agree with it. I'm not about that either - the opposite in fact, at this point. My interest is in developing a theology outside of what I have been told (because I believe I have been told wrong things). I do not say that is what we all should do. I believe if one trusts the teaching of one's church - it is a very comforting place to be. I've simply been in too many churches and found little teaching, and what I have found I sometimes can see myself is wrong from Scripture, so the need to re-examine all.
However, once I pinned down where my thoughts are at this point, I do think it's very valuable to compare it to the churches. My thoughts are this - If Baptists, and Presbyterians, and Catholics, and Methodists, and Lutherans, and Orthodox, and Episcopalians, and every other church I check all believe what I think is truth -- then I'd say the chances are pretty good that I'm on the right track.
IMO, it would be the height of presumption for me to "discover a new belief" that no church before has found or taught or believed, and suddenly think that I myself have the truth and all of them are wrong. Know what I mean? That's where we get Islam, and Mormonism, and things like that. I don't personally believe God is likely to act in that way - give lil' ole' me a brand new truth that no one else has or has ever had. So if I thought I had found a truth, and the churches all disagreed on it, it's time to do some very serious re-thinking.
This is not a central doctrine, so no biggie. And I think it is alluded to in Scripture, and not contradicted, but it's not spelled out abc you must believe this way.
Because of that and because I have many other things I am anxious to look into - this was a bit of a side-track for me - I'm satisfied to accept that the churches all agree, I agree, and we're good.
If it was a salvation matter, my answer would likely be different (though I'd still question if I came against all the churches - though I am never surprised when I disagree with a segment of them since they don't all teach the same things.)
My point of difference is mainly that I don't think a human being today is capable of being sinless without God.
And you may be onto something with the fellowship. You mentioned grace in your other post. I think those are important, I just think it goes deeper than that.
And I've looked into original sin, btw, and I'm not saying that - I don't actually agree with original sin to the point that I would say for certain that babies would need a salvific element - my pov is that I'd have to leave that for God to say and I won't comment either way.
Although I must say, limbo is a very pretty way of resolving it. But I am not advocating for that either.
Thanks for the discussion. Principally I suppose we disagree, but as I said, I'm ok with that, and we're still good with each other.
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