We're actually all in hell right now, and this is a delusion.

Gregory Thompson

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We can be assured that we are not in the 7 year Tribulation, the Millennium, and or the New Earth.
Each of these time periods that are described in the Bible are unique and do not fit to the time we are living in. If these events happened, we would know it. Only if a person is unaware of these events in the Bible will such a person not have an assurance of what time period we are in.

I believe we are in the last days in 2 Timothy 3:1-9. Why? Because that is exactly what we see happening around us.
There's no seven year tribulation.

There's a 3 and a half year ministry by the two witnesses, and a three and a half day period where their rotting corpses are left in the sun - and then they are resurrected.
 
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There's no seven year tribulation.

Yes there is.
You can read about it my End Times Chronology here (According to Scripture):

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

You said:
There's a 3 and a half year ministry by the two witnesses, and a three and a half day period where their rotting corpses are left in the sun - and then they are resurrected.

How can you be sure? Did you not say we are in some kind of possible mental delusion before?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Yes there is.
You can read about it my End Times Chronology here (According to Scripture):

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology



How can you be sure? Did you not say we are in some kind of possible mental delusion before?
I look at scriptures in multiple parallels to examine the various aspects of the truth. You seem to have trouble grasping the idea of thinking in parallel.

Pretribulation rapture is a new age delusion that started in the 1800s.

In general, the scripture is clear, those who vanish are the wicked like those in Noah's flood.
 
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You take everything too literally, and not just the bible.

Is that what an airplane mechanic says to his fellow mechanic when they read the blueprints to aircraft?
Is that what the student says to his teacher on a school assignment?
If words cannot be understood literally then the meaning is lost. But no. I am not a wooden literalist as you claim. I understand metaphor just fine in the Holy Bible (When others have ignored biblical metaphor).

Here's one example:

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

You said:
You purposely overlooked the "if" statement and continue to do so.

Thus continue to flame a strawman which you tend to do in all of your threads.

Well, I don't think you communicated to me clearly on this point. So why even bring up the idea that rich human beings are literally demons if that was not your intent to convey that idea? I did not get the impression you stressed this as a possibility and that you could be wrong. But if this is the case, then by all means, I believe you (if that is what you are saying).
 
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Is that what an airplane mechanic says to his fellow mechanic when they read the blueprints to aircraft?
Is that what the student says to his teacher on a school assignment?
If words cannot be understood literally then the meaning is lost. But no. I am not a wooden literalist as you claim. I understand metaphor just fine in the Holy Bible (When others have ignored biblical metaphor).

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.



Well, I don't think you communicated to me clearly on this point. So why even bring up the idea that rich human beings are literally demons if that was not your intent to convey that idea? I did not get the impression you stressed this as a possibility and that you could be wrong. But if this is the case, then by all means, I believe you (if that is what you are saying).
Hmm, the momentum of this conversation appears as though you are just following the same pattern again.

I'm kind of bored of this type of conversation, I learn a lot of reading the scriptures, but nothing from reading your posts.
 
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Hmm, the momentum of this conversation appears as though you are just following the same pattern again.

I'm kind of bored of this type of conversation, I learn a lot of reading the scriptures, but nothing from reading your posts.

Most of what I write posts Scripture verses, though.
 
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You're not God though.

Never said I was. I am just a messenger who relays what God's Word says.
Unfortunately most today do not like to accept what God's Word says plainly.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Never said I was. I am just a messenger who relays what God's Word says.
Unfortunately most today do not like to accept what God's Word says plainly.
The devil quoted scripture to Jesus in the wilderness, so I need to be discerning. Just because someone creates a collage of bible cut-outs, doesn't meant it represents God's thoughts.
 
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I look at scriptures in multiple parallels to examine the various aspects of the truth. You seem to have trouble grasping the idea of thinking in parallel.

I am not convinced of that, but we can agree to disagree in love.

You said:
Pretribulation rapture is a new age delusion that started in the 1800s.

No it isn't. Pre-Trib Rapture is clearly taught in the Bible. God's people are not appointed unto wrath, and Paul clearly talks about a catching up event for the body of believers. Paul says that the dead will rise and the rest of those who are alive will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus.

You said:
In general, the scripture is clear, those who vanish are the wicked like those in Noah's flood.

I believe the wicked will be annihilated or destroyed or erased from existence.
As for your suggesting the wicked will vanish. What exactly do you mean by that statement?
Do you think there will be some kind of rapture event for the wicked?
Or do you think the wicked will be destroyed by the judgments of God (like natural disasters or by the power of the Lord) here upon this Earth?
 
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The devil quoted scripture to Jesus in the wilderness, so I need to be discerning. Just because someone creates a collage of bible cut-outs, doesn't meant it represents God's thoughts.

No doubt it is good to be a good Berean but there is a point of doubting Scripture too much beyond a point where the verses go ignored or become ineffectual. I have yet to recall you refuting (or making a good case) on any of my points in Scripture on a particular belief before.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I am not convinced of that, but we can agree to disagree in love.



No it isn't. Pre-Trib Rapture is clearly taught in the Bible. God's people are not appointed unto wrath, and Paul clearly talks about a catching up event for the body of believers. Paul says that the dead will rise and the rest of those who are alive will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus.



I believe the wicked will be annihilated or destroyed or erased from existence.
As for your suggesting the wicked will vanish. What exactly do you mean by that statement?
Do you think there will be some kind of rapture event for the wicked?
Or do you think the wicked will be destroyed by the judgments of God (like natural disasters or by the power of the Lord) here upon this Earth?
Rapture event Matthew 24

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Since Jesus is compared to a thief, it means the person being stolen from is wicked.

Those who "enter the ark" are like those who are sealed so they can endure the tribulation.

This is also supported by the following verse:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first. The christian witnesses are not gathered until later on, and it gets pretty bloody when the grapes are reaped.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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No doubt it is good to be a good Berean but there is a point of doubting Scripture too much beyond a point where the verses go ignored or become ineffectual. I have yet to recall you refuting (or making a good case) on any of my points in Scripture on a particular belief before.
Bereans weren't saved though - so using them as an example for Christian conduct is erroneous.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In general the OP Is one of many parallel thoughts, (like having one column of thoughts for Baptist theology, and another column for Pentecostal, another for Eastern Orthodox, and another for Roman Catholic all being parallel.) at most it has a 30% chance of being correct, but usually the probability is much lower. As many people have expressed, it's most likely not the case.

Since parallel thinking is something I had to learn while studying the scriptures, but did not learn from the education system, this way of thinking may be foreign to a number of people.

Okay, I've said my peace.
 
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Rapture event Matthew 24

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This is talking about another event entirely. This is the Mid Tribulation Gathering up of the saints by angels. For what do you think it means when the Lord says look up for your redemption draws near (See: Luke 21:28)? This sounds like the gathering of the saints and not the wicked. For why would they be looking up?

You said:
Since Jesus is compared to a thief, it means the person being stolen from is wicked.

So who on Earth are the people who refuse to repent after this event? Or do you believe in a post trib Rapture like event? Please keep in mind that there are verses showing this event in Matthew 24 as taking place in the Middle of the Tribulation. I make this fact clear in my End Times Chronology.

You said:
Those who "enter the ark" are like those who are sealed so they can endure the tribulation.

God's people are not appointed unto wrath. Only the 144,000 are sealed and protected. No mention of this seal taking place for other believers.

You said:
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. The tares are gathered first. The christian witnesses are not gathered until later on, and it gets pretty bloody when the grapes are reaped.

The harvest is the end of the world (Matthew 13:39).
While this could refer to the end of this world after this Christ's 2nd coming before the Millennium begins, more likely this refers to end of the Millennium right before the one and only final Judgment will take place. For while this world will end with a purification by fire, technically speaking this world will not be totally gone until the end of the Millennium. Also, there will be another war at the end of the Millennium, as well. What of those tares?
 
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Bereans weren't saved though - so using them as an example for Christian conduct is erroneous.

You have an odd view of Scripture. My Bible says that many of the Bereans believed the message of the Christians.

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.” (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-12).
 
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In general the OP Is one of many parallel thoughts, (like having one column of thoughts for Baptist theology, and another column for Pentecostal, another for Eastern Orthodox, and another for Roman Catholic all being parallel.) at most it has a 30% chance of being correct, but usually the probability is much lower. As many people have expressed, it's most likely not the case.

Since parallel thinking is something I had to learn while studying the scriptures, but did not learn from the education system, this way of thinking may be foreign to a number of people.

Okay, I've said my peace.

I think Eschatology is best derived in considering all the different models in seeing how they may line up with God's Word. So I do see the benefit of thinking outside our normal box, but when that thinking goes to far beyond what Scripture says... I think that can be dangerous. God's Word is how we have the faith in the first place (See: Romans 10:17).

Ephesians 4:14 says, “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”​

So there has to be a defined certain set truths of the faith that is set in stone for us in the Bible. If not, we can be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
 
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Rapture event Matthew 24

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Since Jesus is compared to a thief, it means the person being stolen from is wicked.

Those who "enter the ark" are like those who are sealed so they can endure the tribulation.

This is also supported by the following verse:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first. The christian witnesses are not gathered until later on, and it gets pretty bloody when the grapes are reaped.

The Middle of the Tribulation:
(Also Known As the "Middle of Daniel's 70th Week"):

The Beast Takes Jerusalem & The Temple Sacrifices Are Stopped:
(And the Gentile Nations Will Trod Down Upon the City for 42 Months):

Daniel 11:31a NIV

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice.​

Daniel 12:11a NLT and Daniel 12:11b NLT

From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped... there will be 1,290 days.​

Revelation 11:2 NLT

The nations ... will trample the holy city for 42 months.​

Midpoint Day of the Tribulation:

(Continuation of the "Middle of Daniel's 70th Week"):

The Beast & the False Prophet Set Up the Abomination of Desolations in the Jewish Temple:

Revelation 13:14-15

They... make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.​

Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.​

Mark 13:14-20

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.​

Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

A Select Group of Jews Flee to the Mountains:

(Which can also be referred to as "the wilderness" within the Scriptures)

Revelation 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.​

Revelation 12:14-16

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.​
 
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Rapture event Matthew 24

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Since Jesus is compared to a thief, it means the person being stolen from is wicked.

Those who "enter the ark" are like those who are sealed so they can endure the tribulation.

This is also supported by the following verse:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first. The christian witnesses are not gathered until later on, and it gets pretty bloody when the grapes are reaped.

full


24 "Seventy weeks [70 weeks] are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself [The Messiah is Jesus who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the entire world]: and the people of the prince [the people of the prince of the power of the air, i.e. the devil - see: Ephesians 2:2] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [i.e. the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he [The "he" is the "prince" of the people mentioned in verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
(Daniel 9:24-27).

After 7 weeks (49 days /49 years) = Temple Rebuilt (verse 25).

+ (Plus)

After 62 weeks = (a) Christ dying for our sins (b) 70AD Temple destruction.
(Verse 26).

(Gap of time or Age of Grace: The War (verse 26), or Spiritual Time of Battle for the Cause of Christ in Spreading the Gospel)

+ (Plus)

The last 1 week (7 days/7 years) = Tribulation period (verse 27).

7 + 62 + 1 = 70 Weeks.
This passage sets the backdrop or framework for Daniels 70 Week Prophecy (verse 24).


Side Note 1:

If you were to carefully look at the text, it states that there are things that happen in the gap like a.... "war" until the end. Also, Christ dies, and the temple is destroyed also within the gap of time that is not accounted for within the 70 weeks, as well. The text is actually saying that things are happening within the gap of the 69th week, and the 70th week.

Side Note 2:

The texts in brackets in blue and red in the Daniel 9 passage is my personal commentary on the text.
 
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The point my mentioning all of this is to show that the taking up event in Matthew 24 takes place sometime around or after the time of the Abomination of Desolations. The Abomination of Desolations event clearly happens in the Middle of the Tribulation. This is important to understand because wicked men are told to repent after the Middle of the Tribulation. Also, Scripture says God's people are not appointed unto Wrath, and the Wrath is a time of judgment upon unbelievers in the last 3 and half years of the 7 year Tribulation.
 
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