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Welcome Preterists and Futurists! Let's hash it out.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by PreteristArchive, Oct 19, 2002.

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  1. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Dear Armothe, greetings.

    I used to be a preterist but after many years of study and understanding Daniel a little more and realising that Daniel's visions concern "the time of the end."

    Then linking the time periods of the 2300, 1290, 1260, 1335 days of Daniel, with the 1260 days 42 months with Rev 11 and also 1260 days that God's people will be in the wilderness.

    I started to think again by reading what the Bible says. Also the beasts the lion bear leopard and fourth beast in Daniel are depicted in Revelation as being around at the same time, therefore not related to the past empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia. Greece or Rome. 

    I have made it a bit short if you have any question please feel free to ask.

    Maranatha

    P C.
     
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  2. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    How do you reconcile various New Testament passages which you once thought to be correct?

    - Christ says "this generation" would not pass away before Hhe came again
    - Peter clearly stating that they were living in the "last days")

    Are you ignoring New Testament passages based upon what Daniel states, or have you found a solution on how to fit them into your eschatology?

    -A
     
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  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi PC,

    Did you used to be a "Full preterist" or just partial?

    Did you once believe The "2nd coming" happened in 70AD, and if so, what led you to that conclusion initially, how long did you believe and profess that to be true, and how did you finally decide you were wrong about that?

    Thanks,

    P70
     
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  4. Joj

    Joj New Member

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    Where did they go? I wanted to know who the anti-christ was.

    I also wanted to know where the lions lay with the lambs and the carnivores are eating straw. Where kids can play on snake dens and where scorpions don't bite anymore.

    His.............Joj
     
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  5. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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     Greetings in His name, Armothe, thank you for asking me some very interesting questions.

    When we read Matthew 24. Mark 13 and Luke 21, we get the same questions about His second coming and the end of the world.

    Matt 24:3
    . And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what <I>shall be</I> the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    The answer Jesus gave was to be found in Daniel so if we are to understand "the time of the end" prophecies we should also, I believe refer to Daniel.

    Matt 24:15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    &nbsp;

    The generation question is a good one to ask. I will try to answer.

    Psalm 95:9.
    <SUP> </SUP>When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. <SUP>10</SUP>Forty years long was I grieved with <I>this</I> generation, and said, It <I>is</I> a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:Now we can clearly understand our Lord’s meaning of that generation not going into the promise land.

    That was the intent.

    When we read the next verse it could mean the same or something else. Because we know that there were more than one generation getting on the ark.
    Noah was a man of many years and would have been around for more than one generation. So it could be this generation of man or this generation.Genesis 7: 1.<SUP> </SUP>And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.When I read Matt 23 I get a message that Jesus is talking of not only the generation in front of Him, but also of past generations.

    Matt 23:34.
    <SUP> </SUP>Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and <I>some</I> of them ye shall kill and crucify; and <I>some</I> of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute <I>them</I> from city to city: <SUP>35</SUP>That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    Jesus is mentioning a few names that weren’t around at the time of the generation he was speaking to, yet He charges that they killed the Prophets before they were living.<SUP>36</SUP>Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. <SUP>37</SUP>O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, <I>thou</I> that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under <I>her</I> wings, and ye would not!
    To me Jesus is speaking of the expanded generations of the Jewish nation. In the term of this generation of man. But you may not agree with me on this.

    This question is very complex so I have had to bring it down the page a bit to remember what you asked of me I hope you don’t mind?

    "Are you ignoring New Testament passages based upon what Daniel states, or have you found a solution on how to fit them into your eschatology?"


    When I study the Bible I ask myself what does the Bible say? If I can give you one example.

    Daniel 7: 11.
    I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld <I>even</I> till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. <SUP>12</SUP>As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
    I see a battle of words and because of the words of the horn the beast is killed in the burning flame. Now when I study the Bible I look for parallels and patterns. Now my mind tells me that I have seen this little horn and beast somewhere else. And I know that a time mean one and a season means three months so I work out that the other beasts or powers have their power taken from them.

    Now I go to Revelation 19: 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. <SUP>20</SUP>And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    I see the same folk doing the same thing suffering the same result. But my mind says why do the rest of the beasts wait around for fifteen month? Then of course I read the answer below.

    &nbsp;<SUP>21</SUP>And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which <I>sword</I> proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    &nbsp;

    That is how I study the Bible I just read what it says and try and pray for understanding.
    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;I hope this has been of some help to you Armothe.

    In Christ,

    P C.
     
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  6. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    John stated many times that the anti-christ was anyone who was against Christ - and that there was more than one. You might bet getting the anti-christ confused with the Man of Lawlessness.

    In an odd but credible story by the BBC, an African lioness in Kenya has been adopting baby antelope (deer-like animal), and weening the newborn calves.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1905363.stm

    -A
     
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  7. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    &nbsp;


    Hello Parousia, thank you for your questions. I was a partial preterist.

    I do not and never have believed that Jesus returned in 70 AD.

    Well, I thought it impossible that Jesus could have returned at that time because John who wrote Revelation was speaking of a future advent and historians estimate the time of his writing Revelation, was well after 70AD.

    I used to belong to a church that taught that Daniel was all but, if not mostly, fulfilled and as I looked at the Book I started thinking well,,, this is not what the Bible says.

    Hope this answers your questions.

    Maranatha .

    P C.
     
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  8. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    My versions read:

    New Revised Standard
    Psalm 95:10:&nbsp;For forty years I loathed that generation and said, “They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they do not regard my ways.”

    New American Standard
    Forty years long was I grieved with that generation, And said, It is a people that do err in their heart, And they have not known my ways:

    God was indeed speaking about the generation which wandered in the wilderness for 40 years......that generation.

    Let's look at some New Testament examples on how "generation" is used.

    Matthew 1:17:&nbsp;So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.

    Matthew 12:39: But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
    (The sign of the prophet Jonah was&nbsp;Christ&nbsp;being raised from the dead&nbsp;after 3 days. This only happened in Christ's generation)

    Matthew 17:17: Jesus answered, “You faithless and perverse generation, how much longer must I be with you?

    Luke 1:48: for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant. Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;

    Luke 17:25: But first He (Christ)&nbsp;must endure much suffering and be rejected by this generation. (Christ was rejected by the generation of Jews at that time - hence, His crucifixion)

    Ephesians 3:5: In former generations this mystery was not made known to humankind, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit:

    Generation is obviously a period of time guaged by&nbsp;elements of lifespans of humans living at that time.

    In Noah &amp; Enoch's day, a generation was probably 200 years.
    In Moses's day it took&nbsp;40 years to wipe out the exodus generation.
    In Christ's time a generation was&nbsp;about 40 years.
    Today, it is still generally accepted as 40 years.

    A generation cannot consist of multiple generations like you suggest.
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;A generation =&nbsp; multiple generations

    That just doesn't make sense logically.

    There is obviously a time limit on a generation. For example:

    My father was born in 1940.
    My&nbsp;mother gave birth to me when my father was 35.
    My wife gave birth to my son when I was 30.
    My son dies when he is 70 yrs old.

    Here we have three generations: Grandfather, Father, Son.
    Total lifespan&nbsp;beginning from my father's birth to my son's death is 135 years. 135 divided by 3 generations = 45 years per generation.

    I'm still a bit confused how you are currently justifying your interpretation of "this generation" as mentioned in Matthew 24.

    -A
     
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  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

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    Speaking of the "Left Behind" series, has anyone here read Gary DeMar's book, "End Times Fiction" which is a counterpoint to the Left Behind series?

    I heard him speak on the Bible Answer Man broadcast a while back and I thought he had some good arguments for his partial-preterist viewpoint.
     
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  10. Joj

    Joj New Member

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    "In an odd but credible story by the BBC, an African lioness in Kenya has been adopting baby antelope (deer-like animal), and weening the newborn calves."

    Do you call this "odd" occurance fulfilled prophesy? That by this, Jeremiah's kingdom prophey of the anilamal kingdom tamed had been fulfilled?

    Cmon.

    His....Joj
     
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  11. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    Hey now....Futurists demand that Christ has not yet come as long as lions and lambs/deer are at odds with eachother. I'm merely providing evidence that this is already happening in some instances.

    Believing that this "odd" story is a fullfillment of end times scripture, is just as "odd" as turning the similie of lions and lambs laying together into prophesy itself.
    Do people really&nbsp;expect lions and lambs, or deer to never be at odds with eachother after Christ comes?

    It was merely used as an example of the peace Christians would have.

    -A

    -A
     
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  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thank you PC, you answered them yes.

    You are saying that nothing in the Bible itself led you to conclude that Christ returning in AD70 was impossible, but it was the "extra biblical"&nbsp;opinions of historians that convinced you.

    Interesting.


    I&nbsp;had a feeling you weren't&nbsp;an "ex-full preterist" because, as was the point of armothe's post you were responding to,&nbsp;nobody who adopts full preterism ever goes back to futurism. Conversely,&nbsp;Christians are leaving futurism in droves for full preterism.

    You are saying you were never a preterist, but once were a "Partial futurist" and now you are a "Full futurist".

    I must take issue with your claim that you are no longer a "partial preterist/futurist" becuase every Christian believes that at least some last days prophesy has been fulfilled. Peter infallibly claims that he himself was a witness to the fulfillment of "Last Days" prophesy. If you believe Peter spoke the truth, you are a partial preterist.

    PC, You&nbsp;are clearly still a partial preterist,&nbsp;you simply changed your "Cut off" point.

    You spoke of &nbsp;Daniels "time of the end". I wonder if you could&nbsp;elaborate on&nbsp;your view a bit?

    Daniel said the "end" would be "When the power of the Holy people had been finally broken".

    In your understanding, What "Power" is this he speaks of, who are the "Holy People" he is speaking of, and what event will "Finally break" their "Power"?

    Thanks,

    P70
     
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  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Where exactly does scripture fortell of a single end time world ruler dude called "Antichrist"?
     
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  14. Joj

    Joj New Member

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    "Hey now....Futurists demand that Christ has not yet come as long as lions and lambs/deer are at odds with eachother. I'm merely providing evidence that this is already happening in some instances."

    Futurist demand much more than THAT unfulfilled prophesy. Evidence that something "is happening" is hardly evidence of fulfilled prophesy.

    "Believing that this "odd" story is a fullfillment of end times scripture, is just as "odd" as turning the similie of lions and lambs laying together into prophesy itself. "

    I didn't turn it into prophesy. It is prophesy. What makes you think its a similie?
    "
    Do people really expect lions and lambs, or deer to never be at odds with eachother after Christ comes?"

    Only those who believe Gods word, He tells us this.

    "It was merely used as an example of the peace Christians would have."

    Then why did you try to show this prophesy is happening? I dont see Chriustians in those passages because they are not there. There are only reptiles children, and animals. You must see Christians there because if if you take the bible literaly as you should there, your theology is blown.

    When did God put the law on Israels heart so that no man needs to teach one another the things of God, they just know it? He said He would write His law on their hearts. Or wasn't that prophesy either?

    His.......Joj
     
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  15. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Excellent question that deserves another!

    This is clearly contrasting the "Law" engraved in stone and delivered to Moses with the "law" engraved on the hearts.

    The qustion then becomes, if the "law on the hearts" is not a reality today,&nbsp;then the "law engraved in stone" must still be in effect today.

    Joj, is the Mosaic Law in effect today? and if so, how does one follow that law today?

    if it is not in effect today, what law is?

    P70

    &nbsp;
     
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  16. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Boy Joj, if this metphore were a snake, it would've bit ya!

    Lets see just how "Literaly" you take the Bible shall we?

    Scripture calls Jesus the "Lamb of God". as a self profressed "Literalist", I'm sure you believe Jesus is a literal lamb, complete with 4 legs and a coat of wool, right?

    Scripture calls Jesus the "Lion of Judah". As a self professed "Literalist" I'm sure you believe Jesus is a "Literal" Lion complete with fangs, claws&nbsp;and a mane, right?

    What? you take this as metaphore?

    Where does the Bible tell you to take&nbsp;this "Lamb and Lion" as metaphore but the "Lamb and Lion" laying together as "Literal"?

    &nbsp;:scratch:

    Like I said, if it were&nbsp;snake..........

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
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  17. Joj

    Joj New Member

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    "Excellent question that deserves another!"

    Good, lets see if you can answer it.

    "This is clearly contrasting the "Law" engraved in stone and delivered to Moses with the "law" engraved on the hearts."

    Sorry, but I see no cantrasting the law of Moses here. This is simply the new covenant God will make with Israel that hansn't been made yet..."this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days. I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their heart, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. No more shall eevry man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother saying know the Lord, for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniguity, and their sin I shall remember no more. Jer. 31:31-34

    Show me where these passages contrasts the stone tablets as you claim this does. Heck use the whole chapter.

    "The qustion then becomes, if the "law on the hearts" is not a reality today, then the "law engraved in stone" must still be in effect today."

    I dont know how you can come up with that. This promise of God to Israel has not been kept yet obviously, while it is clear that Gods word says Jesus had the law of Moses nailed to the cross with Him.

    "Joj, is the Mosaic Law in effect today? and if so, how does one follow that law today?"

    The mosaic law is not in effect today.

    "if it is not in effect today, what law is?"

    Grace is in effect today. Paul tells us mixing law with grace makes one a debtor to God, so I wont do it. I'd say the law of love is in effect.:)

    His.....Joj
     
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  18. Joj

    Joj New Member

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    "Boy Joj, if this metphore were a snake, it would've bit ya!"

    If these truth were understood by you, it would really hit ya! Gods kingdom will be just as the prophets said. If you think this has to with men and peace, where is it happening today? Why is your gods kingdom in such turmoil and chaos?

    "Lets see just how "Literaly" you take the Bible shall we?"

    "Scripture calls Jesus the "Lamb of God". as a self profressed "Literalist", I'm sure you believe Jesus is a literal lamb, complete with 4 legs and a coat of wool, right?"

    You really dont need to stretch what I believe, you have stretched your beliefs far enough for both of us. Your straw man argument doesn't cut it.

    "Scripture calls Jesus the "Lion of Judah". As a self professed "Literalist" I'm sure you believe Jesus is a "Literal" Lion complete with fangs, claws and a mane, right?

    Yawwwnnnnnnn.

    What? you take this as metaphore?

    Yyawwnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!

    "Where does the Bible tell you to take this "Lamb and Lion" as metaphore but the "Lamb and Lion" laying together as "Literal"? "

    Lamb of God, Gods perfect sacrifice for us, is the man Christ Jesus. Scripture bears this out. Thats also easy to see is a metaphor.
    Lion of the tribe of Judah, another simple metaphor, it Jesus, the root of Jesse. (not literalaly root either)

    If the lion isn't a lion and the lamb isn't a lamb, if the asp isn't the snake and the ox isn't the ox, the bear isn't the bear and the goat isn't the goat and the child isn't the child, the leopard isn't the leopard the cow isn't the cow who are all these things? And who are all their young ones? And like I asked, where are these guys living in such peace?

    Where did I say I was a literalist? I will tell you this though, I take the bible literaly except for when it is speaking metaphoricly. I read and take it IN CONTEXT, and I watch who it is adressing as well. It's all to me to learn, but not all for me, to do or apply. If you would realize it isnt all for you as well, you wouldn't have to spiritualize uneccesarily it to make it fit your theology.

    His.....Joj
     
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  19. Joj

    Joj New Member

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    Leave me alone till you come up with the list of who all those metaphors represent and where they are today please.
     
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  20. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

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    You say the promise to Israel (of a better covenant) has not been kept yet. I say it has. Hebrews 8 &amp; 9 prove this.&nbsp;The Jewish/Mosaic law was passing away in the first century. In its place is the new, perfect covenant that Christ made with ALL mankind.

    Hebrews 8:10: This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel.

    Hebrews 9:15: For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant.

    Hebrews 9:26: But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hebrews 9:12: he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

    Hebrews 9:14: How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God.

    So after reading these passages, it is clear that the covenant which was promised to Israel was indeed Christs sacrifice on the cross.
    Do you believe this redemption was only meant for Israel?
    Please explain?

    -A
     
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