Website (SDA?) Accuses Roman Catholics of Deleting Words from the Ten Commandments

[Dale]

The website given below is one of the first to come up if you do a search for Ten Commandments.

Who put up this site? Under About Us:

“Since having a denominational name gives Satan something to attack and many Christians have the tendency to judge truth by denomination rather than the Word of God, we have chosen not to reveal denomination.”

They refuse to tell us who they are. There’s nothing like honesty in these religious discussions is there? The entire site regurgitates views that can only be traced to Ellen White, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists.

Under “Catholic Version,” the site makes several strong claims. For the Second Commandment, it says “Deleted. See also idolatry in the Catholic Church.” A note then goes on to talk about “idolatry” in the “papal system.”

Is there any truth to this claim? Not really. Catholic Bibles contain the Ten Commandments in full. A traditional Catholic catechism does use a condensed version of what Protestants list as the first and second commandments. However, a catechism is intended to explain basic principles of the faith to children and teenagers. From the dictionary.com definition of “catechism”: “an elementary book containing a summary of the principles of the Christian religion.” For unwieldy Bible verses to be simplified when explaining the faith to young people is hardly radical.

This dubious “Ten Commandments” site seems to think that the Catholic numbering is a conspiracy to ignore the prohibition of idolatry. Here are a couple of reasons to think they are wrong. First, the numbers aren’t in the original – a point the TC site can’t seem to grasp. From their Catholic Version page:

“As a result the Roman Catholic version of the Ten Commandments is always one ahead of the King James in the Decalogue until the tenth Commandment when they break it into two and make it the ninth and tenth Commandments.”

This is false: There are no numbers for the commandments in the original manuscripts or in the KJV.

Second, the Catholic numbering of the Ten Commandments apparently goes back to Aurelius Augustine, known as St. Augustine. I have read enough of Augustine’s City of God to know that he spent a great deal of time and space criticizing Egyptian paganism and Roman paganism. Augustine was not soft on idolatry.



Links
Bible List Of The Ten Commandments
The main page gives the Ten Commandments from the NKJV but adds numbers.

The Ten Commandments - About Us
Refuses to name denomination, in the last paragraph.

The Ten Commandments - Roman Catholic Church Version
Contains the mistaken and distorted claim that the RCC “changed” the Ten Commandments, including the claim that the RCC “deleted” the Second Commandment.

 

[Dale]

The following chart shows both the scripture of the Ten Commandments and the Roman Catholic Catechism.

This chart is from the Vatican website. There is no sign that the RCC is covering anything up here. The Catechism does condense the words of the Bible but it does provide an introduction to the subject.


Link
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments

 

[Dale]

The RCC aren’t the only ones to use a shortened version of the Ten Commandments in a catechism.

The following is from the Evangelical Lutheran Synod and is quoted from Martin Luther.

This version of the Ten Commandments, arranged for catechism, gives the Sabbath Commandment as the Third Commandment. While the Sabbath Commandment is lengthy in the original, here it is reduced to eight words. Martin Luther followed the Roman Catholic numbering. It also leaves out the part about graven images, what other Protestant renderings call the Second Commandment.



Quote

Part 1: The Ten Commandments
The Small Catechism
by Dr. Martin Luther
As the head of the family should teach them in a simple way to his household.

The Ten Commandments
The First Commandment
You shall have no other gods.
What does this mean?
We should fear, love and trust in God above all things.

The Second Commandment
You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do not curse, swear, practice witchcraft, lie or deceive by His name, but call upon Him in every trouble, pray, praise and give thanks.

The Third Commandment
You shall keep the day of rest holy.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred and gladly hear and learn it.

The Fourth Commandment
Honor your father and your mother, that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do not despise our parents and superiors, nor provoke them to anger, but honor, serve, obey, love and esteem them.

The Fifth Commandment
You shall not kill.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do no bodily harm to our neighbor, but help and befriend him in every need.

The Sixth Commandment
You shall not commit adultery.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we lead a chaste and decent life in word and deed, and that husband and wife each love and honor the other.

The Seventh Commandment
You shall not steal.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do not take our neighbor’s money or goods, nor get them in any dishonest way, but help him to improve and protect his goods and means of making a living.

The Eighth Commandment
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do not lie about, betray or slander our neighbor, but excuse him, speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

The Ninth Commandment
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do not craftily seek to gain our neighbor’s inheritance or home, nor get it by a show of right, but help and serve him in keeping it.

The Tenth Commandment
You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his.
What does this mean?
We should fear and love God, so that we do not tempt, force or coax away from our neighbor his wife or his workers, but urge them to stay and do their duty.

Conclusion
What does God say about these commandments?
I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, and showing mercy to thousands of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
What does this mean?
God threatens to punish all who transgress these commandments. Therefore we should fear His wrath and do nothing against these commandments. But He promises grace and every blessing to all who keep these commandments. Therefore we should also love and trust in Him and willingly do according to His commandments.


End Quote


Link
Part 1: The Ten Commandments

 

[BobRyan]

The website given below is one of the first to come up if you do a search for Ten Commandments.

Who put up this site? Under About Us:

“Since having a denominational name gives Satan something to attack and many Christians have the tendency to judge truth by denomination rather than the Word of God, we have chosen not to reveal denomination.”

They refuse to tell us who they are.

Certainly there has to be a web site some place put up by some person that makes a statement about something where they do not specify their denomination. you claim you have found one... fine.

 

[BobRyan]

Under “Catholic Version,” the site makes several strong claims. For the Second Commandment, it says “Deleted. See also idolatry in the Catholic Church.” A note then goes on to talk about “idolatry” in the “papal system.”

Is there any truth to this claim? Not really. Catholic Bibles contain the Ten Commandments in full.

1. Fact. No Bible - not even the Catholic one numbers the Commandments.
2. Fact. the Catholic Catechism does number the commandments so as to lump the second commandment in with another one.
3. Fact. the Ten Commandments and the numbering of the Ten commandments come to Christianity from the Hebrew Bible and Hebrew tradition.
4. fact. a number of Protestant denominations (not just SDAs) agree with leaving the commandments as they are found in the Hebrew Bible known to Samuel, David, Jeremiah and the numbering as given to us from that Hebrew tradition.

you may be barking up the wrong tree.

Given that ALL the numbering options are via the tradition avenue and not a "number sitting in the manuscript for each commandment" the ONLY "change" that can exist is - a change between the Hebrew tradition (the original ordering) and whatever the tradition that someone else might have (for example the RCC in it's Catechism).

Obviously.

 

[Freth]

The site appears to follow SDA beliefs, even cites one independent SDA ministry here, so my own assessment is that it is most likely owned and maintained by an SDA member, outside of the purview of the SDA church. None of the links on the website that I can find point to official SDA websites.

---

It is true, the commandments aren't numbered in the Bible, but most denominations agree on numbering. Numbering is beside the point in the grand scheme of things, but it helps keep the commandments organized.

As for Catholic changes to the Ten Commandments, one only need look at the following and come to their own conclusions:

• Catholic Catechism (search for "Ten Commandments")
• Ten Commandments: Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
• Ten Commandments: New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
  
• Ten Commandments: King James Version

What scripture says:

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
​

---

​

My observations:

​

While the Ten Commandment verbiage is largely maintained in the first bullet point of each commandment listed in the Catechism, it's in the subsequent bullet points where the Catholic church takes liberties with the Ten Commandments, adding to them and taking away from them.

• Graven images:
  • The absorbing of the second commandment into the first, creating a vacancy in the commandment structure.
    
  • The allowing of icons of Jesus, Mary, the angels and the saints, despite the language in the commandment.
• Sabbath:
  • Acknowledging the seventh day sabbath's sacredness, but instituting Sunday as the day of worship, calling it "The Lord's Day". The taking away of the seventh day Sabbath as God's day of worship.
  • This link isn't required as the Sabbath link suffices, but it furthers the point and shows a contradiction. The Catholic Encyclopedia Vol 4, page 153 (right page, upper right): "The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third [actually, it's the fourth] Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. [And the juxtaposition:] The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians."
• Coveting:
  • Splitting the covet commandment into two (1:I, II, BRIEF and 2:I, II, III, IV, BRIEF) to make up the loss of the second commandment.

The Catechism still shows the "Traditional Catechetical Formula" here.

ETA: Numbering aside, deviating from the Ten Commandments, or outright contradicting them, is not the will of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Given that ALL the numbering options are via the tradition avenue and not a "number sitting in the manuscript for each commandment" the ONLY "change" that can exist is - a change between the Hebrew tradition (the original ordering) and whatever the tradition that someone else might have (for example the RCC in it's Catechism).

Obviously.

The RCC aren’t the only ones to use a shortened version of the Ten Commandments in a catechism.

Who else has the tradition of re-numbering them from the Hebrew tradition that came before the Christian one?

The site appears to follow SDA beliefs, even cites one independent SDA ministry here,

It might well be an SDA individual - I don't claim to know.

They say this

We are a self funded ministry dedicated to spreading the truth of God’s Word. We believe and teach the same things that were taught by Jesus, as well as what Paul and the Apostles taught to the early Church. We wholly believe in the Bible as our only source of doctrine and recognize that all scripture is totally inspired by God and so fully trustworthy, including the acknowledgement that there was a literal six day creation plus one extra day for rest and Holy use giving us the seven day week we have today. We have also discovered that once you know the keys to unlock the prophecies of the Bible, they actually can be understood and without private interpretation. Jesus said blessed is he that reads and understands them. (Revelation 1:1-3)

So whatever they are doing - they are doing it on their own - by their own public statement

 

[Dale]

Here is a condensed version of the Ten Commandments from a Jewish source.

Although the Sabbath Commandment comes out as the Fourth Commandment in this listing, it is still different from the typical Protestant listing and from the Roman Catholic listing.

Quote

1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
5) Honor thy father and thy mother.
6) Thou shalt not murder.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8) Thou shalt not steal.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor.

End Quote


Note that in the “Protestant” rendering used by the Ten Commandments site, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” is the First Commandment. In this Jewish listing, it is the Second Commandment.

The prohibition of idolatry, which is the Second Commandment in “Protestant” rendering used by the Ten Commandments site, is skipped in this Jewish listing. Or perhaps it is simply assumed to be implied by “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Certainly the Commandments are condensed in these popular listings.


Link
The Ten Commandments

 

[BobRyan]

Here is a condensed version of the Ten Commandments from a Jewish source.

Although the Sabbath Commandment comes out as the Fourth Commandment in this listing, it is still different from the typical Protestant listing and from the Roman Catholic listing.

Quote

1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
5) Honor thy father and thy mother.
6) Thou shalt not murder.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8) Thou shalt not steal.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor.

End Quote


Note that in the “Protestant” rendering used by the Ten Commandments site, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” is the First Commandment. In this Jewish listing, it is the Second Commandment.

Does not reflect history accurately for the NT saints.

"One should keep in mind that the above is the modern Jewish tradition. Back in Joesphus day the Ten Commandments were counted like protestants and the Greek Orthodox do today. You can find a source on that HERE and HERE."

(Protestants start the first commandment - as did Philo with vs 3... Josephus included vs 2 in the first commandment as well.) Since vs 2 is not a commandment and only applies to Jews it is easy to see why Philo did not included it in the first commandment.


In the first century the Hebrew division had vs 1-4 as the first commandment.

Josephus on the 10 Commandments
Exodus 20:1-17/ 3.5.5
5. (Verses 20:2-3)The first commandment teaches us that there is but one God, and that we ought to worship him only1. (Verse 4) The second commands us not to make the image2 of any living creature to worship it. The third, that we must not swear by God in a false matter. The fourth, that we must keep3 the seventh day, by resting from all sorts of work4. The fifth, that we must honor our parents5. The sixth that we must abstain from murder6. The seventh that we must not commit adultery. The eighth, that we must not be guilty of theft. The ninth, that we must not bear false witness. The tenth, that we must not admit of the desire7 of any thing that is another's.
Josephus on the 10 Commandments - Patristic Bible Commentary

* The "Talmudic Division" is the grouping used by modern Judaism, and dates back to the third century. The "Philonic Division", dating back to the first century, is taken from the texts of Philo and Josephus. In their writing the first commandment ends after verse 3 and has the second commandment as verses 4-6.
Jewish Ten Commandments | TCL

The "Philonic Division", dating back to the first century, is taken from the texts of Philo and Josephus. In their writing the first commandment ends after verse 3 and has the second commandment as verses 4-6.

=====================


Protestants use Philo’s version – Philonic which is the same as the Jewish version before the Talmud but it omits vs 2 since vs 2 is not a command

 

[Dale]

The site appears to follow SDA beliefs, even cites one independent SDA ministry here, so my own assessment is that it is most likely owned and maintained by an SDA member, outside of the purview of the SDA church. None of the links on the website that I can find point to official SDA websites.

---

It is true, the commandments aren't numbered in the Bible, but most denominations agree on numbering. Numbering is beside the point in the grand scheme of things, but it helps keep the commandments organized.

As for Catholic changes to the Ten Commandments, one only need look at the following and come to their own conclusions:

• Catholic Catechism (search for "Ten Commandments")
• Ten Commandments: Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
• Ten Commandments: New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
  
• Ten Commandments: King James Version

What scripture says:

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
​

---

​

My observations:

​

While the Ten Commandment verbiage is largely maintained in the first bullet point of each commandment listed in the Catechism, it's in the subsequent bullet points where the Catholic church takes liberties with the Ten Commandments, adding to them and taking away from them.

• Graven images:
  • The absorbing of the second commandment into the first, creating a vacancy in the commandment structure.
    
  • The allowing of icons of Jesus, Mary, the angels and the saints, despite the language in the commandment.
• Sabbath:
  • Acknowledging the seventh day sabbath's sacredness, but instituting Sunday as the day of worship, calling it "The Lord's Day". The taking away of the seventh day Sabbath as God's day of worship.
  • This link isn't required as the Sabbath link suffices, but it furthers the point and shows a contradiction. The Catholic Encyclopedia Vol 4, page 153 (right page, upper right): "The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third [actually, it's the fourth] Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. [And the juxtaposition:] The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians."
• Coveting:
  • Splitting the covet commandment into two (1:I, II, BRIEF and 2:I, II, III, IV, BRIEF) to make up the loss of the second commandment.

The Catechism still shows the "Traditional Catechetical Formula" here.

ETA: Numbering aside, deviating from the Ten Commandments, or outright contradicting them, is not the will of God.

Freth, hello, since I don’t believe I have met you here before.


Freth: “The site appears to follow SDA beliefs, even cites one independent SDA ministry here, so my own assessment is that it is most likely owned and maintained by an SDA member, outside of the purview of the SDA church. None of the links on the website that I can find point to official SDA websites.”

The TC site strongly reflects views that can only come from the writings of Ellen White. In the brief menu under Home the fifth choice is Mark of the Beast. The Mark of the Beast section strongly affirms a connection between sabbath and the end times. Only Ellen White makes this connection. No denomination has ever made it independently of her writing. There is no reason to.

Link
What Is The Mark Of The Beast And The Sabbath


Freth: “The absorbing of the second commandment into the first, creating a vacancy in the commandment structure.”

This would only make sense if the numbers were in the original manuscripts. They are not.

As I showed in post #3, Martin Luther also skipped over the part about graven images. He did not pray to Mary or the lesser saints, so that wasn’t his reason for doing so.

As I showed in post #8, Jewish sources have done the same thing. It makes no sense to attack the RCC for this reason.

 

[Dale]

Does not reflect history accurately for the NT saints.

"One should keep in mind that the above is the modern Jewish tradition. Back in Joesphus day the Ten Commandments were counted like protestants and the Greek Orthodox do today. You can find a source on that HERE and HERE."

(Protestants start the first commandment - as did Philo with vs 3... Josephus included vs 2 in the first commandment as well.) Since vs 2 is not a commandment and only applies to Jews it is easy to see why Philo did not included it in the first commandment.


In the first century the Hebrew division had vs 1-4 as the first commandment.




The "Philonic Division", dating back to the first century, is taken from the texts of Philo and Josephus. In their writing the first commandment ends after verse 3 and has the second commandment as verses 4-6.

=====================


Protestants use Philo’s version – Philonic which is the same as the Jewish version before the Talmud but it omits vs 2 since vs 2 is not a command

Ellen White never read Josephus or Philo. Do you think she did? She simply assumed that the listing she had heard in the Methodist Church was the one and only way of listing the Ten Commandments.

 

[Dale]

The site appears to follow SDA beliefs, even cites one independent SDA ministry here, so my own assessment is that it is most likely owned and maintained by an SDA member, outside of the purview of the SDA church. None of the links on the website that I can find point to official SDA websites.

---

It is true, the commandments aren't numbered in the Bible, but most denominations agree on numbering. Numbering is beside the point in the grand scheme of things, but it helps keep the commandments organized.

As for Catholic changes to the Ten Commandments, one only need look at the following and come to their own conclusions:

• Catholic Catechism (search for "Ten Commandments")
• Ten Commandments: Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
• Ten Commandments: New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
  
• Ten Commandments: King James Version

What scripture says:

Revelation 22:18-19 KJV For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
​

---

​

My observations:

​

While the Ten Commandment verbiage is largely maintained in the first bullet point of each commandment listed in the Catechism, it's in the subsequent bullet points where the Catholic church takes liberties with the Ten Commandments, adding to them and taking away from them.

• Graven images:
  • The absorbing of the second commandment into the first, creating a vacancy in the commandment structure.
    
  • The allowing of icons of Jesus, Mary, the angels and the saints, despite the language in the commandment.
• Sabbath:
  • Acknowledging the seventh day sabbath's sacredness, but instituting Sunday as the day of worship, calling it "The Lord's Day". The taking away of the seventh day Sabbath as God's day of worship.
  • This link isn't required as the Sabbath link suffices, but it furthers the point and shows a contradiction. The Catholic Encyclopedia Vol 4, page 153 (right page, upper right): "The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third [actually, it's the fourth] Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. [And the juxtaposition:] The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians."
• Coveting:
  • Splitting the covet commandment into two (1:I, II, BRIEF and 2:I, II, III, IV, BRIEF) to make up the loss of the second commandment.

The Catechism still shows the "Traditional Catechetical Formula" here.

ETA: Numbering aside, deviating from the Ten Commandments, or outright contradicting them, is not the will of God.

Freth: << What scripture says: Revelation 22:18-19 KJV For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. >>

Very few have added more words to the Bible than Ellen White. Since her followers believe she is a prophet, they put just as much weight on her writing as they do on the Bible. In addition, they see her writing as more recent and easier to understand. The warning of “plagues” for those who add to the Bible is one she should have heeded.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Freth: << What scripture says: Revelation 22:18-19 KJV For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. >>

Very few have added more words to the Bible than Ellen White. Since her followers believe she is a prophet, they put just as much weight on her writing as they do on the Bible. In addition, they see her writing as more recent and easier to understand. The warning of “plagues” for those who add to the Bible is one she should have heeded.

Hi Dale,

That is a false premise about the SDA church. Just look at the SDA 28 fundamental beliefs no one is above the Bible. Ellen White herself told us that everything must be tested against Bible scriptures, the Bible is the ultimate authority and we follow God, not a human. Curious if your church also make these types of statements?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Freth, hello, since I don’t believe I have met you here before.


Freth: “The site appears to follow SDA beliefs, even cites one independent SDA ministry here, so my own assessment is that it is most likely owned and maintained by an SDA member, outside of the purview of the SDA church. None of the links on the website that I can find point to official SDA websites.”

The TC site strongly reflects views that can only come from the writings of Ellen White. In the brief menu under Home the fifth choice is Mark of the Beast. The Mark of the Beast section strongly affirms a connection between sabbath and the end times. Only Ellen White makes this connection. No denomination has ever made it independently of her writing. There is no reason to.

Link
What Is The Mark Of The Beast And The Sabbath


Freth: “The absorbing of the second commandment into the first, creating a vacancy in the commandment structure.”

This would only make sense if the numbers were in the original manuscripts. They are not.

As I showed in post #3, Martin Luther also skipped over the part about graven images. He did not pray to Mary or the lesser saints, so that wasn’t his reason for doing so.

As I showed in post #8, Jewish sources have done the same thing. It makes no sense to attack the RCC for this reason.

To answer your question regarding the Mark of the Beast and how it relates to the Sabbath it’s right there in Revelations

Revelations 14: 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth

This passage leads us back to the 4th commandment Exodus 20 8-11. God asked us to REMEMBER the seventh day and to keep it Holy. He made the heavens and earth.

Revelation 14: 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The mark of the beast is about who we worship. Are we staying true to God and keeping His Sabbath? Or keeping commandments of man that Jesus warns us about? Mathew 15:8-9. God bless

 

[Freth]

Dale,

You don't need a word of Ellen White's writings to come to these conclusions about the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments.

Some points:

• It's common sense to number the Ten Commandments as they are commonly accepted as being numbered.
• The issue isn't the numbering of the commandments, it's the adding to or taking away from the word of God.
• The pioneers of the SDA church recognized the Seal of God being the Sabbath through diligent Bible study.
• These pioneers were people of various denominations. The importance of the Sabbath was recognized before the church was formed in 1863; one of the main reasons it formed in the first place.
• Ellen White simply magnified scripture and gave confirmation. The beliefs of the SDA church came from the pioneers as a whole.
• A good number of the SDA pioneers wrote ground-breaking books on end time prophecy and the Sabbath and shined light on these subjects where there was darkness. Even as we do today on this forum, publications were a means of debate and reasoned conclusion.
  
• There was a Christian revival in the 1800's, because of these new truths. It was a world-wide movement. It was a world-wide movement because people saw Biblical truth for themselves.

It's easy to attack one person (Ellen White). It's more difficult to attack a group of people of different denominations who came together because of what they saw as Biblical truth, through deep study. Even more difficult to attack a world-wide movement that shared these beliefs because they found them in the Bible themselves.

Set Ellen White aside. We can defend our beliefs with scripture. We can point directly to the Biblical truth that our church was founded on, because our church pioneers laid that foundation for us.

The pioneer movement was Bible first long before the official formation date of the church (and remains so today). People started coming to these truths before Ellen White was even known of. While the work of the pioneers cannot be dismissed, if it's not found in the Bible, we don't believe it to be true.

Ellen White's writings defend her just fine. We don't need to come to her defense:

“I recommend to you, dear reader, the Word of God as the rule of your faith and practice. By that Word we are to be judged. God has, in that Word, promised to give visions in the ‘last days’; not for a new rule of faith, but for the comfort of His people, and to correct those who err from Bible truth. Thus God dealt with Peter when He was about to send him to preach to the Gentiles.”—Early Writings, 78.

“Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God’s Word in infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, ‘It is written.’ Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline.” The Review and Herald, December 15, 1885 (Selected Messages 1:416.)​

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White never read Josephus or Philo. .

Did that affect the Protestants that kept right on using the Philonic version of numbering the Ten Commandments used by the NT church in the first and second century?? Does that "matter" in some way?

Ellen White never read Josephus or Philo. Do you think she did? She simply assumed that the listing she had heard in the Methodist Church was the one and only way of listing the Ten Commandments.

So you goofed up and brought out a detail where not only are all the Protestants right about this but - so was Ellen White correct on this detail -- and you want to dismiss this as "she was accidentally right"?

you are the one that brought this up in the first place... did you "forget"?

How many "Ellen White was right... but it was an accident I hope" threads do you intend to bring up?

At some point it pays to just "throw away that shovel"..

 

[BobRyan]

Very few have added more words to the Bible than Ellen White.

Did Ellen White ever publish a Bible?

Is it legit to falsely accuse others in your POV?

 

[BobRyan]

The TC site strongly reflects views that can only come from the writings of Ellen White. In the brief menu under Home the fifth choice is Mark of the Beast. The Mark of the Beast section strongly affirms a connection between sabbath and the end times. Only Ellen White makes this connection.

I see... so you think that you found a quote of Ellen White on an Adventist web site.

1. What would be the surprise ... to claim that an Adventist quoted Ellen White, even if your claim were true. ??
2. Provide the quote please, since you claim the only source for that is Ellen White.
3. Don't tell us that the web site only quotes the Bible for that doctrine - but the Bible gets it from Ellen White.

 

[Dale]

Hi Dale,

That is a false premise about the SDA church. Just look at the SDA 28 fundamental beliefs no one is above the Bible. Ellen White herself told us that everything must be tested against Bible scriptures, the Bible is the ultimate authority and we follow God, not a human. Curious if your church also make these types of statements?

Dale,

You don't need a word of Ellen White's writings to come to these conclusions about the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments.

Some points:

• It's common sense to number the Ten Commandments as they are commonly accepted as being numbered.
• The issue isn't the numbering of the commandments, it's the adding to or taking away from the word of God.
• The pioneers of the SDA church recognized the Seal of God being the Sabbath through diligent Bible study.
• These pioneers were people of various denominations. The importance of the Sabbath was recognized before the church was formed in 1863; one of the main reasons it formed in the first place.
• Ellen White simply magnified scripture and gave confirmation. The beliefs of the SDA church came from the pioneers as a whole.
• A good number of the SDA pioneers wrote ground-breaking books on end time prophecy and the Sabbath and shined light on these subjects where there was darkness. Even as we do today on this forum, publications were a means of debate and reasoned conclusion.
  
• There was a Christian revival in the 1800's, because of these new truths. It was a world-wide movement. It was a world-wide movement because people saw Biblical truth for themselves.

It's easy to attack one person (Ellen White). It's more difficult to attack a group of people of different denominations who came together because of what they saw as Biblical truth, through deep study. Even more difficult to attack a world-wide movement that shared these beliefs because they found them in the Bible themselves.

Set Ellen White aside. We can defend our beliefs with scripture. We can point directly to the Biblical truth that our church was founded on, because our church pioneers laid that foundation for us.

The pioneer movement was Bible first long before the official formation date of the church (and remains so today). People started coming to these truths before Ellen White was even known of. While the work of the pioneers cannot be dismissed, if it's not found in the Bible, we don't believe it to be true.

Ellen White's writings defend her just fine. We don't need to come to her defense:

“I recommend to you, dear reader, the Word of God as the rule of your faith and practice. By that Word we are to be judged. God has, in that Word, promised to give visions in the ‘last days’; not for a new rule of faith, but for the comfort of His people, and to correct those who err from Bible truth. Thus God dealt with Peter when He was about to send him to preach to the Gentiles.”—Early Writings, 78.

“Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God’s Word in infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, ‘It is written.’ Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline.” The Review and Herald, December 15, 1885 (Selected Messages 1:416.)​

Imge: << That is a false premise about the SDA church. Just look at the SDA 28 fundamental beliefs no one is above the Bible. Ellen White herself told us that everything must be tested against Bible scriptures, the Bible is the ultimate authority and we follow God, not a human. Curious if your church also make these types of statements? >>

Freth: << You don't need a word of Ellen White's writings to come to these conclusions about the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments. >>



Ellen White didn’t consult the Bible when she had a conversation with her mother and decided that there’s no such thing as hell.

Ellen White didn’t read the Bible when she decided that Moses resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven in the Old Testament.

Ellen White didn’t go by the Bible when she adopted her false belief in soul sleep.

Etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White didn’t consult the Bible when she had a conversation with her mother and decided that there’s no such thing as hell.

Ellen White didn’t read the Bible when she decided that Moses resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven in the Old Testament.

Ellen White didn’t go by the Bible when she adopted her false belief in soul sleep.

Etc.

You realize of course that this is the "Sabbath and the Law" forum and not the "I don't like Seventh-day Adventists" forum.. right?

Is it your practice to simply make wild statements about others with nothing but your own "say so" as proof?

1. Is there any "history" supporting the idea that whatever Ellen Harmon said to her mother as a child was accepted as "docrine" by William Miller or the Millerites.
2. Is there any "history" supporting the wild idea that Ellen White reported conversations she had with her mother as a child and then the Adventist denomination accepted those views as doctrine based on a child's conversation with her mother.?
3. Is there any "history" supporting the idea that the book "the Assumption of Moses" did not exist before Ellen White or that Jude did not quote from it as though it was reliable on the point of the resurrection of the body of Moses "assumed into heaven"?
4. Is there any "history" supporting the idea that Ellen White is the one who introduced the texts on "sleep" in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11 - to the Adventists so they would believe in "soul sleep"??
5. Is there any history supporting the wild idea that Ellen White ever gave even one doctrine to Adventists? Or that she ever said "here is a doctrine you should believe because I have just affirmed it , or God just told it to me" - in your list of doctrines above??
6. Is there any history at all where the Adventist leaders claimed "we believe such and such doctrine purely because Ellen White affirms or approves of it"?? As if the church had any such agreement of that form on doctrine.

Is there "a sustaining fact" in what you are posting?

Or does actual history show instead .. that they all claimed their method was "Sola Scriptura" and that even the evangetlistic outreach Bible study series given to the unchurched are sola-scriptura based doctrinal studies and not "because Ellen White said this is true" studies. (on the very doctrines you list)