We may have a free will, but are we really free?

[RDKirk]

God appears to be constrained by standards of Holiness.

So who above God wrote those standards of holiness that constrain Him?

 

[Sabertooth]

So who above God wrote those standards of holiness that constrain Him?

God cannot break His promises, or lie, etc...

 

[The happy Objectivist]

You can say that Hell inspires a fear in people, which I guess could also indirectly influence being free. But people still justify Hell as being good by saying that some people just can't be reasoned and must be cut off.

I don't think it's indirect at all but very direct. I know that when I was 7 and I was going to the Methodist church I was terrified of it because at that time I developed Tourette's Syndrome and one of my ticks was saying God d$%^it and I hate you, God. I couldn't stop no matter how hard I tried and so I was certain that God would send me to hell and for a couple of years, it was all I thought about. I also didn't "feel God's presence" the way others around me claimed no matter how hard I prayed so I was doubly sure I was damned. I got nothing and everyone else was talking about this peace and love that they felt.

It was actually the idea of hell that led me away from Christianity. When I was 15 years old I reasoned that God wouldn't create people with this wonderful ability to reason and then want us to have faith. I couldn't reconcile the two. I tried talking to the minister about this but he just blew me off and patted me on the shoulder and told me not to question. So I reasoned that it must be a test and that those who used their minds and logic and came to the conclusion that it was all bunk would be the ones who would pass the test and be rewarded and it was the people who just accepted it on faith that would be punished. That led me to become a deist. I reckoned that God wanted us to use our reason to the best of our ability so God could not be the Christian God. I now realize that what I was doing was not reasoning but rationalization. I actually had no clue how to reason then but it made sense to me in a rationalistic sort of way.

It's just classic coercive mind control. It's a way of getting people to submit. So no, under Christianity and many other religions you are not free, and philosophically, the idea of an all-knowing god is a repudiation of free will.

 

[VCR-2000]

I don't think it's indirect at all but very direct. I know that when I was 7 and I was going to the Methodist church I was terrified of it because at that time I developed Tourette's Syndrome and one of my ticks was saying God d$%^it and I hate you, God. I couldn't stop no matter how hard I tried and so I was certain that God would send me to hell and for a couple of years, it was all I thought about. I also didn't "feel God's presence" the way others around me claimed no matter how hard I prayed so I was doubly sure I was damned. I got nothing and everyone else was talking about this peace and love that they felt.

It was actually the idea of hell that led me away from Christianity. When I was 15 years old I reasoned that God wouldn't create people with this wonderful ability to reason and then want us to have faith. I couldn't reconcile the two. I tried talking to the minister about this but he just blew me off and patted me on the shoulder and told me not to question. So I reasoned that it must be a test and that those who used their minds and logic and came to the conclusion that it was all bunk would be the ones who would pass the test and be rewarded and it was the people who just accepted it on faith that would be punished. That led me to become a deist. I reckoned that God wanted us to use our reason to the best of our ability so God could not be the Christian God. I now realize that what I was doing was not reasoning but rationalization. I actually had no clue how to reason then but it made sense to me in a rationalistic sort of way.

It's just classic coercive mind control. It's a way of getting people to submit. So no, under Christianity and many other religions you are not free, and philosophically, the idea of an all-knowing god is a repudiation of free will.

Especially it's crazy if we are talking about the fundamentalist ideas, that not only if you don't follow Jesus' path you will eventually go to Hell and be tormented for the rest of eternity, but Jesus' path requires of them to not engage in things "of the world" (a favorite Christian buzzword), not even in moderation. To live as ascetic life as a monk or nun. That is also what I imagine what Heaven must be like. The difference is, in Heaven you'll basically be a drone in agape at the love of Jesus 24/7 and your mind wouldn't think about anything else. It almost sounds like the opposite of paradise actually. I know I definitely don't want to go to Hell either, but I only have two of those choices.

In order to be really "free" in the commonly used philosophical sense would mean that there isn't going to be an indefinite-binding fate of consequence afterwards.

 

[The happy Objectivist]

Especially it's crazy if we are talking about the fundamentalist ideas, that not only if you don't follow Jesus' path you will eventually go to Hell and be tormented for the rest of eternity, but Jesus' path requires of them to not engage in things "of the world" (a favorite Christian buzzword), not even in moderation. To live as ascetic life as a monk or nun. That is also what I imagine what Heaven must be like. The difference is, in Heaven you'll basically be a drone in agape at the love of Jesus 24/7 and your mind wouldn't think about anything else. It almost sounds like the opposite of paradise actually. I know I definitely don't want to go to Hell either, but I only have two of those choices.

In order to be really "free" in the commonly used philosophical sense would mean that there isn't going to be an indefinite-binding fate of consequence afterwards.

Well, obviously I don't believe in a heaven or a hell. Those are just the Carrot and the stick used by mystics to get people to do what they want. I think this life is all we have and it's a crime, a tragedy, and a waste to treat this life like it's a stepping stone or a means to the end of some other life that's going to be better. I think we make our own lives a heaven or a hell by our choices and actions. And I think that we can only live properly in this world by sticking to facts and not letting fantasy take the place of reality. This life is so rich and so wonderful and now that I've gotten older I find myself really thinking hard about what is really important to me and savoring every minute and I've learned to drop what isn't crucial to my happiness. And when it's over I don't have to be sad. I won't be there to be sad that I'm dead. What will be sad for me is when I can no longer pursue the things I love. So I find myself eating better, and exercising, and taking care of myself so I can enjoy life longer. Honestly, I'm too busy living to worry about death.

 

[RDKirk]

God cannot break His promises, or lie, etc...

I would say that is a matter of His will rather than Him being under constraint.

 

[angelsaroundme]

One belief is that God is constrained by being perfect. It is kind of like saying, there are three routes to take, and a practical person must choose the shortest route, or conversely, they must follow the route where the most is gained along the way.

 

[TedT]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship.

Heaven is the place of full communion and fellowship between GOD and HIS creation characterized as a marriage...no room for autocracy or no free will here.

And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two?

Free only means free from coercion or constraint in choosing and has nothing to do with the number of options.

And can anyone explain why that is so?

To enter a marriage with someone you can either accept the proposal or reject it...there is no other option.

Accepting it is the way to heaven,
rejecting it is the way to hell.

 

[VCR-2000]

I have always had this struggle with different parts and laws of the Bible spiritually. Still I always intellectually agreed with the existence and being of God.

 

[Pommer]

But people still justify Hell as being good by saying that some people just can't be reasoned and must be cut off.

I wonder how many wars were reasoned into with this notion: “if they’re going to go to hell anyways, why not send them there now!?”

 

[jayem]

Most secular philosophers (actually, I don't think any) believe in free will. Pretty much all believe in some level of mechanistic determination.

As a naturalist, I agree with that. The behaviors we make are determined by our brains. Sensory information is continually coming in and being processed in various regions. We know that vision is handled by the occipital lobe, hearing in the temporal lobe, and touch and body awareness in the parietal region. These inputs tell our brain about our current situation. This information is sent to the prefrontal cortex where executive decisions are made. The brain also accesses memories of past experiences and outcomes and assesses our emotional state. All of which figure into our decision making. We have conscious awareness at this level. Which gives us the feeling that we have free will when we decide how to act. But it's relatively free will. Because if our brain was in exactly the same state at another time, we would make exactly the same decision. However, a normally functioning brain is a highly dynamic organ. Actually the most dynamic organ in our bodies. Neuronal pathways are constantly forming and reforming, even during sleep. The chance that our brain will be in exactly the same state at 2 different times is vanishingly remote. So this means we have relative free will. But not absolute free will.

 

[stevevw]

What Christians call "free will" is not free will, but a choice of masters, and that choice is only possible by the grace of God. Scripture explicitly asserts that human nature in itself is deterministic toward evil.

Yes Paul said in Romans 7: 16 & 17

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

 

[VCR-2000]

Yes Paul said in Romans 7: 16 & 17

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

Paradox: If there is only one objective way to live or have preference, there is no individual freedom.

 

[stevevw]

Paradox: If there is only one objective way to live or have preference, there is no individual freedom.

But theres not one way. I don't think Paul is saying that he is continually doing what he doesn't want to do and he is acting wrong all the time. Only that he finds himself in situations where he sometimes does what he knows he should not do and is acknowledging his sinful nature.

There is a struggle between doing right and wrong. Sometimes doing the right thing and sometimes the wrong. Maybe often doing the wrong thing and maybe often doing the right thing but never ling up to the law 100%. The fact that there is this conflict seems to point to there being a choice/battle between right and wrong.

 

[Sheila Davis]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

You have a point - we have free will that means to choose to do what is right or to choose to do what is wrong. We have free will in choosing who we will serve whether we will serve the God or the devil.

Are we actually free - my opinion is no - we belong to the Creator - we are his - everything in the heavens are his. We are under his government, his authority, his rule and because he is all-powerful, what can we do about it anyway.
There are a lot of people who consider the Old Testament as a dictatorship - especially atheist.
What scripture tells us is equality, peace, harmony, righteousness, loyalty, truth, honor, and love is what God's kingdom is about. Which is the same thing he tells us to do with each other while here on Earth.
Having said that _ if there is a dictatorship style from God - the dictatorship is against rebellion, against dishonesty, against the those not loyal, against immorality, against hatred, against envy, against evil in all its forms. And he warned us of the consequences.
Even here on Earth if one had a kingdom - and had a choice, they would choose loyal, honest, righteous, trustworthy people who have good moral standards to inhabit their kingdom. So does God! The difference is God has the power to execute final judgment for eternity.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

Ah, a common question. Let me explain:

What is the point of free will but to choose what makes you the happiest and is the most healthy for you? The point of God's instruction is to help us do that, the way a parent wants to see their child happy. Also like a parent who must sometimes tell their children to eat their vegetables, God sometimes has to set rules we find unpleasant for our future happiness and healthiness. After all, while immediate pleasure may tell you that eating ten tubs of ice cream is a good idea, future you will certainly suffer from that, and God doesn't want us to suffer. any more than we have to in this broken world.

On the other side, sin is addictive, like drugs. For example, a man who deeply loves his wife may still cheat on her because he is addicted to his behavior; he does not want to hurt his wife, but he cannot control himself, because he is not the force in control of his life. In fact, the entire reason God states throughout the Bible that sin is wrong is that it controls our lives, instead of us having the free will to choose what we want.

I mean, take this example: you have the ability to stick your hand in a fire. But would you want to do that? Of course not! In the end, free will inevitably results in people trying to choose what makes them happiest or what helps them be healthy. God is just the kind parent trying to help us along that route.

 

[Stephen3141]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

You need to define what you mean by "free".

You're free to levitate, any time you wish to....

 

[Flaunge]

I'm not a Calvinist and I respectfully declare that I strongly dislike it.

I think people have limited scope of free will, obviously, since we are bound by our physical, mental, cultural and otherwise limitations. But attributing some heinous crime to the "glorious sovereignty of God" is, in my humble opinion, a grotesque misinterpretation of scripture.

Ultimately, we are all sinners trapped in this cursed flesh of evil, but we do have some leeway in our actions, which, in the case of saved Christians, will mean eternal rewards for the efforts we make for God/good and against evil.

 

[anetazo]

John chapter 3 . Everyone must decide to follow Jesus or satan. God won't force anyone to love Him and worship Him.

Psalm chapter 9 . The wicked and heathen go to hell. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked until judgement day. They wont repent and conform to God's standard.

Romans chapter 11 and first Peter chapter 1 . God's Election don't have free will. Jesus will intervene in thier lifes. They are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. God judged election in first earth age. Were in second earth age.

Those who have free will, have personal decision.
Repent and conform to God's standard.
Or follow satan and go to sheol.