We may have a free will, but are we really free?

[VCR-2000]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

Ever experience a perfect union? This is eternity with our Creator. A relationship always meant to be.
Blessings.

 

[RDKirk]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

What Christians call "free will" is not free will, but a choice of masters, and that choice is only possible by the grace of God. Scripture explicitly asserts that human nature in itself is deterministic toward evil.

 

[eleos1954]

What if hell isn't an eternal place of punishment? (I do not believe so) How does that effect your theory?

There are theological differences/debates on the matter .... some teach a "burning hell for eternity" some do not and each give scriptural references supporting what they believe. It's a continuous debate.

 

[iLearn]

You are not free until Jesus sets you free. You are always in bondage to sin until you come to Jesus in repentance and faith to set you free forever.

 

[Sabertooth]

We are free to choose whatever options we have before us, but
we are not free from the consequences of said choices...

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you

life and death,
blessing and cursing;​

therefore choose life,..." Deuteronomy 30:19 NKJV

 

[VCR-2000]

Ever experience a perfect union? This is eternity with our Creator. A relationship always meant to be.
Blessings.

That is more mystic.

 

[VCR-2000]

What Christians call "free will" is not free will, but a choice of masters, and that choice is only possible by the grace of God. Scripture explicitly asserts that human nature in itself is deterministic toward evil.

If so, that makes more sense than the other notion. Still, it is pretty sick and unfair of creation that human nature itself operates on a one-way deterministic street.

 

[RDKirk]

If so, that makes more sense than the other notion. Still, it is pretty sick and unfair of creation that human nature itself operates on a one-way deterministic street.

That's a matter of person opinion.

 

[Aussie Pete]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

How do you define freedom? God cannot lie. Does that mean that He is not free? God cannot sin, so likewise does that mean He is not free? If God is not free, then I'm very happy not to be free also. Although people should be glad that I'm not God. Life would be much more uncomfortable for many more people.

 

[Aussie Pete]

How do you define freedom? God cannot lie. Does that mean that He is not free? God cannot sin, so likewise does that mean He is not free? If God is not free, then I'm very happy not to be free also. Although people should be glad that I'm not God. Life would be much more uncomfortable for many more people.

 

[Aussie Pete]

If so, that makes more sense than the other notion. Still, it is pretty sick and unfair of creation that human nature itself operates on a one-way deterministic street.

It's not unfair, it was the choice made by man in the beginning.

 

[VCR-2000]

What if hell isn't an eternal place of punishment? (I do not believe so) How does that effect your theory?

There are theological differences/debates on the matter .... some teach a "burning hell for eternity" some do not and each give scriptural references supporting what they believe. It's a continuous debate.

Maybe Hell is not eternal. I'm more agnostic when it comes to whether Hell is eternal or not, but I am assuming the view that it is eternal, which is currently the popular contemporary and mainstream Christian view.

 

[VCR-2000]

We are free to choose whatever options we have before us, but
we are not free from the consequences of said choices...

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you

life and death,
blessing and cursing;​

therefore choose life,..." Deuteronomy 30:19 NKJV

What if our suffering was really a consequence of somebody else's bad choice, even if the person is very remote.

Why does there need to be a double standard with the determinism of evil and non-determinism of good in this creation? Could God not have decided to do anything different?

 

[VCR-2000]

That's a matter of person opinion.

Is it necessary to have my preference strictly predicated on truth? How does one explain their favorite color or favorite type of music?

This is what the problem is with Christianity, everything from the beginning is a sacrifice for the one being Jesus. One must either absolutely surrender their individuality (preferences and tastes, worldview, culture, tribe) for Jesus in order to have life and be saved, or not surrender the self but condemned to an eternity of suffering. You can't win or argue against it-it is futile. It is not a wonder that most of the population but a very small number are lukewarm or totally hostile to Christianity. How is your free choice?

 

[RDKirk]

[QUOTE="VCR-2000, post: 76370471, member: 415812"It is not a wonder that most of the population but a very small number are lukewarm or totally hostile to Christianity. [/quote]

I don't understand that statement. There are lots of hot Christians. I'd bet none of them in North Korea are "lukewarm."

How is your free choice?

Most secular philosophers (actually, I don't think any) believe in free will. Pretty much all believe in some level of mechanistic determination.

 

[Sabertooth]

What if our suffering was really a consequence of somebody else's bad choice, even if the person is very remote.

Why does there need to be a double standard with the determinism of evil and non-determinism of good in this creation? Could God not have decided to do anything different?

God appears to be constrained by standards of Holiness.

But He did promise that even the bad consequences of living in this world (such as other people's poor choices) would be used for the ultimate benefit of believers [Romans 8:28].

 

[The happy Objectivist]

What do you think about this? Could man really be free either here or eternally, especially when you factor in the existence of Hell as a eternal punishment and Heaven as a eternal bliss? I have a small theory that Heaven and Hell both are like a different kind of metaphysical dictatorship. And do you truly believe one is literally free if our only choices are those two? And can anyone explain why that is so?

It depends on what you mean by free. I define free as free from coercion or force. So no, if there were a god and he threatened you with hell you would not be free. Free will is essentially your choice to think or not and if you are under threat of violence your mind doesn't work too well. Force is the killer of reason. You might be able to think but you can't act on your thinking when there's a gun pointed at your head. As Yaron Brooks asks, if I point a gun to your head and say from now on 2 +2 = 5 and if you say it doesn't I'll shoot, could you balance your checkbook or make change or build a house or anything else that requires math?

 

[The happy Objectivist]

Most secular philosophers (actually, I don't think any) believe in free will. Pretty much all believe in some level of mechanistic determination.

Many but not all. Objectivism holds that man has free will.

 

[VCR-2000]

It depends on what you mean by free. I define free as free from coercion or force. So no, if there were a god and he threatened you with hell you would not be free. Free will is essentially your choice to think or not and if you are under threat of violence your mind doesn't work too well. Force is the killer of reason. You might be able to think but you can't act on your thinking when there's a gun pointed at your head. As Yaron Brooks asks, if I point a gun to your head and say from now on 2 +2 = 5 and if you say it doesn't I'll shoot, could you balance your checkbook or make change or build a house or anything else that requires math?

You can say that Hell inspires a fear in people, which I guess could also indirectly influence being free. But people still justify Hell as being good by saying that some people just can't be reasoned and must be cut off.