we have no proofs about the existence of god

[Vicomte13]

How was it with you, did you require and receive Proofs before you believed, because I sure didn't.

Yes. Without the evidence, I would not ever have been able to believe anything so strange.

 

[Vicomte13]

What are you giving up?

Sexual liberty.
Financial liberty.
Time.
Liberty to say whatever I want, whenever I want.
The ability to hate my enemies without considering their circumstances.
The ability to dismiss people I don't like.
The love of war.

 

[fat wee robin]

I didn't forget the proofs, I just didn't state them because it would take a lot of writing. Just because one is going the right direction doesn't mean that things get better, or if going the wrong direction things get worse. Lot believed that and chose the best looking land and found himself in Sodom and Gomorrah. John the Baptist went the right way and ended up first in prison, and then beheaded.

I am not talking of 'getting better ' in the material sense at all , but in the sense of joy , hope , peace ,
creativity , healthy children , wholesome relationships .
Why do you think 'getting better means money ?
John the Baptist was in a particuler role that God had given him ,or perhaps he was Elijah born again . For new christians in the 4th and 5th century in Ireland (which then coverted England and Scotland ,and part of France), most were looking for an inner peace ,a purer lifestyle , a capacity to create better communities and develop better relationships into the future ,where love and cooperation under a Holy God , not a warrier ,not a vengeful bloodthirsty one ,but a loving One .
That lasted more or less until England brought violence and bloodshed with Cromwell .
God did not create us to be ignorant ,but to learn through the Holy Spirit ,the higher Learning process which is neccessary to the best of science .
Most great scientist believed in an ordered creation made by a higher power . Many believed too, in Jesus Christ as such . They had been given 'enlightenment ' through the power of the Holy Spirit to pursue scientific understnding of God's Creation . They were Born to do that .No one can do anything creative, which lasts, unless born of the Spirit of God .

 

[Almost there]

Sexual liberty.
Financial liberty.
Time.
Liberty to say whatever I want, whenever I want.
The ability to hate my enemies without considering their circumstances.
The ability to dismiss people I don't like.
The love of war.

You don't give up financial liberty when you become a Christian. It actually increases.
You actually substantially increase time when you become a Christian.
You can say what you want, whenever you want, when you are a Christian. But your desire, regarding what to say, changes.
You do not give up the ability to dismiss people you don't like when you become a Christian.
I don't know where the "love of war" comment is coming from. Christianity does not teach that. Or were you thinking specifically of Islam when you included that one?

 

[Vicomte13]

You don't give up financial liberty when you become a Christian. It actually increases.
You actually substantially increase time when you become a Christian.
You can say what you want, whenever you want, when you are a Christian. But your desire, regarding what to say, changes.
You do not give up the ability to dismiss people you don't like when you become a Christian.
I don't know where the "love of war" comment is coming from. Christianity does not teach that. Or were you thinking specifically of Islam when you included that one?

You do give up financial liberty when you become a sincere Christian: you must start providing for the poor, otherwise, per Jesus: "what good does it do you?"

You cannot say whatever you want, whenever you want. Some things become blasphemous. Other things become wrongful because they are stumbling blocks to others.

You have to love your neighbor as a Christian, you cannot simply dismiss somebody begging for help as you can (without qualm) when you are a pagan.

I am a bloodyminded man, one with a considerable degree of bloodlust, who has always believed that war is the answer to most of the worst international problems, and that the death penalty is the answer to the problem of recidivism for a great variety of crimes (not just murder). I am inclined to want to very aggressively fight those who disturb the peace, nationally and internationally, and believe that the most straightforward way to deal with disturbers of the peace and lawbreakers is to kill them, swiftly and publicly, with overwhelming might, to intimidate the rest of like-minded enemies and scum into keeping the peace. That is my natural viewpoint, and my logical viewpoint, and I put my money and my body where my mouth is for nearly two decades. I love war, and I think that violence is the answer.

With the onset of the reality of Christ, I cannot sustain that view. I still believe it to be so, rationally, but I have to trust that God knows better, and that if we do it His way that it will work out better for us in this life and the next. That is a tremendous leap of faith for me.

Loss of sexual liberty, and having to change my warrior ethos, are two VERY HARD DEMANDS on me.
I would never give up those things if I didn't know it was true.

 

[Antig]

So reading about Jesus ',hearing Him 'speak ', the winess of others had nothing to do with it !!!!
You are even better than all the apostles who took a bit of time to be completely convinced ; in other words , Jesus allowed some time for them to truly understand , to be complete in their faith .

I am not saying I do not believe you ,as maybe you were a Christian ,'born' a christian ,as some are .

Faith. Thats all it takes. Read scripture. Faith.....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

maybe spiritual proofs but not material proofs that unbelievers want

There are proofs that back up God's Word.

A short genealogy of David in Genesis 38:

​

​

Talk about God glorifying His own Word!!!

Wow. That is awesome!


Source:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/569
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/522/

Mt. Sinai and the Red Sea Crossing:

Furthemore, in the Scriptures we learn that the Lord literally burned the top of Mt. Sinai (Exodus 19) (Deuteronomy 5). In fact, today, people have witnessed the burned top of Mt. Sinai. A Mountain that is now called "Jabal al Lawz" in Saudi Arabia. A mountain that you can see that is burned at the top.

Exodus 19:18
"And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly."​

​

There is even evidence that confirms the Red Sea crossing, too. A great video to check out these evidences (That is also available on DVD if you do not like the video quality) can be watched here:



Just Click on Play Button at the following YouTube Video.

In addition, I would also recommend watching the following video here, as well. This video reveals more of the discoveries made at Mt. Sinai. Such as Elijah's cave, certain artifacts, and the split rock.

Psalm 105:41
"He opened the rock, and waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river."​

Again, if you don't like the resolution of the video at YouTube, I do believe the DVD is still available on Amazon or other select sites.

The Perfect Life Condtions of the Earth:
(That is fine tuned for life):



Today there are more than two hundred known parameters required for a planet to support life; For every one of these parameters must be met exactly, or there would be no life on Earth

Here are just 20 of them.

1. Earth is at the perfect distance from the sun.
(Too close and we burn up; Too far away and we would freeze).

2. Earth is in a habitable zone of galaxy where there is no radiation and wandering planetoids.

3. Earth's orbit of the sun does not take us too close to the sun.

4. Earth has the right amount of magnetic fields generated from it's core to protect us from harmful rays of the sun.

5. Earth has the right kind of star (i.e. the sun) which gives off the right amount of output that is not too strong (that would burn us up).

6. Earth is spinning at a rate that makes life possible.

7. Earth is tilted at the right axis for life.

8. Earth's moon as at the right size and distance so as to provide the perfect kind of tides for life.

9. Earth's two gas giants (i.e. Jupiter and Saturn) prevent wandering astroids from hitting the Earth.

10. Earth has the right amount of oxygen or air for life to thrive.

11. Earth has the right kind of gravity for life to thrive.

12. Earth has enough useable water so as to sustain life.

13. Earth has enough minerals, plant, and animal life so as to provide for humans.

14. Earth's atmosphere is at just the right level to protect life.

15. Earth's tectonic processes which recycle the crust are just right so as to maintain life on our planet by recycling minerals and nutrients that we need.

16. Earth's right amount of gases in the atmosphere making life suitable.

17. Earth has the right amount of carbon dioxide.

18. Earth is just the right size.

19. Earth has right amount of Nitogen that makes life possible.

20. Earth is at the right age to support life.​

Taking all these factors into account, it seem like a miracle that we are even here at all. For if even one of the above variables did not exist, then we would not exist.

The Orion and Pleiades Star Clusters:

"Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"
(Job 38:31).


The Orion star cluster has been set loose and the stars within this star cluster have been drifting away from each other. Whereas the Pleiades star cluster is gravitationally held together as a group. God asked Job thousands of years ago if he can bind the Pleiades and loose the bands of Orion. We did not truly confirm this until the Science of Astronomy discovered such a thing.
​

Joshua's Long Day is Confirmed by Other Cultures:




Scripture says,

"Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel: Sun, stand still over Gibeon; and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the people had revenge upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hastened to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded a voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel" (Joshua 10:12-14).

This...

"incident of "Joshuas Long Day" is not an isolated one. There is indisputable evidence from the modern science of ethnology that such an event occurred as Joshua records. In the ancient Chinese writings there is a legend of a long day. The Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico have a like record. There is a Babylonian and Persian legend of a day that was miraculously extended. Herodotus, an ancient historian, recounts that while in Egypt, priest showed him their temple records, and that he read of a day which was twice the natural length of any day that had ever been recorded (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, pp. 122,123)."

Article Source:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_625.cfm
(Please take note that I do not believe everything that Blue Letter Bible teaches or says; I merely agree with what is quoted in the article here).

Moral Argument for God:

 

[fat wee robin]

Faith. Thats all it takes. Read scripture. Faith.....

All it takes to do what ?
I had faith as a child , loved Jesus ;didn't need the bible even .
Are you afraid that by looking at evidence of God and His creation ,you will stop believing ,stop having Faith ,because the God You have created for you might crumble .
Many people who have said they have Faith do not have any longer because it has not been able to stand up to arguments made by well educated non christians ,many many millions .
Fine ,you do not need anything but the bible ,but you are writing in a faraway land on something which is not mentioned in the bible .Do you imagine that if people who invented such things had not researched' knowledge '(which seems taboo to you), it would have been possble ?

 

[Vicomte13]

Faith. Thats all it takes. Read scripture. Faith.....

Scripture did not make the sale for me, never could have. Now, with belief, the Scriptures are a wonderful resource, but they did not convince me of anything but the barbarism of the ancient Jews when I read them as a pagan.

 

[fat wee robin]

There are proofs that back up God's Word.

A short genealogy of David in Genesis 38:

​

​

Talk about God glorifying His own Word!!!

Wow. That is awesome!


Source:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/569
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/522/

Mt. Sinai and the Red Sea Crossing:

Furthemore, in the Scriptures we learn that the Lord literally burned the top of Mt. Sinai (Exodus 19) (Deuteronomy 5). In fact, today, people have witnessed the burned top of Mt. Sinai. A Mountain that is now called "Jabal al Lawz" in Saudi Arabia. A mountain that you can see that is burned at the top.

Exodus 19:18
"And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly."​

​

There is even evidence that confirms the Red Sea crossing, too. A great video to check out these evidences (That is also available on DVD if you do not like the video quality) can be watched here:



Just Click on Play Button at the following YouTube Video.

In addition, I would also recommend watching the following video here, as well. This video reveals more of the discoveries made at Mt. Sinai. Such as Elijah's cave, certain artifacts, and the split rock.

Psalm 105:41
"He opened the rock, and waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river."​

Again, if you don't like the resolution of the video at YouTube, I do believe the DVD is still available on Amazon or other select sites.

The Perfect Life Condtions of the Earth:
(That is fine tuned for life):



Today there are more than two hundred known parameters required for a planet to support life; For every one of these parameters must be met exactly, or there would be no life on Earth

Here are just 20 of them.

1. Earth is at the perfect distance from the sun.
(Too close and we burn up; Too far away and we would freeze).

2. Earth is in a habitable zone of galaxy where there is no radiation and wandering planetoids.

3. Earth's orbit of the sun does not take us too close to the sun.

4. Earth has the right amount of magnetic fields generated from it's core to protect us from harmful rays of the sun.

5. Earth has the right kind of star (i.e. the sun) which gives off the right amount of output that is not too strong (that would burn us up).

6. Earth is spinning at a rate that makes life possible.

7. Earth is tilted at the right axis for life.

8. Earth's moon as at the right size and distance so as to provide the perfect kind of tides for life.

9. Earth's two gas giants (i.e. Jupiter and Saturn) prevent wandering astroids from hitting the Earth.

10. Earth has the right amount of oxygen or air for life to thrive.

11. Earth has the right kind of gravity for life to thrive.

12. Earth has enough useable water so as to sustain life.

13. Earth has enough minerals, plant, and animal life so as to provide for humans.

14. Earth's atmosphere is at just the right level to protect life.

15. Earth's tectonic processes which recycle the crust are just right so as to maintain life on our planet by recycling minerals and nutrients that we need.

16. Earth's right amount of gases in the atmosphere making life suitable.

17. Earth has the right amount of carbon dioxide.

18. Earth is just the right size.

19. Earth has right amount of Nitogen that makes life possible.

20. Earth is at the right age to support life.​

Taking all these factors into account, it seem like a miracle that we are even here at all. For if even one of the above variables did not exist, then we would not exist.

The Orion and Pleiades Star Clusters:

"Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"
(Job 38:31).


The Orion star cluster has been set loose and the stars within this star cluster have been drifting away from each other. Whereas the Pleiades star cluster is gravitationally held together as a group. God asked Job thousands of years ago if he can bind the Pleiades and loose the bands of Orion. We did not truly confirm this until the Science of Astronomy discovered such a thing.
​

Joshua's Long Day is Confirmed by Other Cultures:




Scripture says,

"Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel: Sun, stand still over Gibeon; and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the people had revenge upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hastened to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded a voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel" (Joshua 10:12-14).

This...

"incident of "Joshuas Long Day" is not an isolated one. There is indisputable evidence from the modern science of ethnology that such an event occurred as Joshua records. In the ancient Chinese writings there is a legend of a long day. The Incas of Peru and the Aztecs of Mexico have a like record. There is a Babylonian and Persian legend of a day that was miraculously extended. Herodotus, an ancient historian, recounts that while in Egypt, priest showed him their temple records, and that he read of a day which was twice the natural length of any day that had ever been recorded (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, pp. 122,123)."

Article Source:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_625.cfm
(Please take note that I do not believe everything that Blue Letter Bible teaches or says; I merely agree with what is quoted in the article here).

Moral Argument for God:

Thankyou for this most excellent post ,one to keep .

 

[redleghunter]

maybe spiritual proofs but not material proofs that unbelievers want

You discount the Scriptures themselves?

 

[redleghunter]

Yes. He did say that. And that generation died out 1900 years ago. He did not say "Every generation...", he said, to the Jews listening to him, "THIS evil generation [of Jews - because nobody else was listening to him]..."

This is one of the basic problems of reading Scripture. People ignore the verb tenses and ignore who is saying what to whom, and assume that what they read is addressed directly to them, as opposed to what it frequently is: a specific conversation between specific people, and commands addressed to specific people, in a specific time and specific place, not all people for all times.

Good point from the account of the Gospel according to Luke. The Gospel account of Matthew has "a" wicked generation. But that may be mincing words.

I go by John 20.

John 20: World English Bible (WEB)

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, wasn’t with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 After eight days again his disciples were inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being locked, and stood in the middle, and said, “Peace be to you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Don’t be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.”

 

[Greg Merrill]

.
How was it with you, did you require and receive Proofs before you believed, because I sure didn't.

Wow, imagine a human being having to exercise humility towards God.

Proof that God was behind the writing of the Bible is the astronomical chances that so many of it's prophecies have come true. Further proof is its original lack of error or contradiction. Further proof are the many patterns of numerical/alphabetical sequences the original text contains, acting like the things our money has in it to make counterfeiting very difficult. Proof is the inability of the far more numerous enemies of Israel to destroy Israel once and for all.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am not talking of 'getting better ' in the material sense at all , but in the sense of joy , hope , peace ,
creativity , healthy children , wholesome relationships .
Why do you think 'getting better means money ?

Amen!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Proof that God was behind the writing of the Bible is the astronomical chances that so many of it's prophecies have come true. Further proof is its original lack of error or contradiction. Further proof are the many patterns of numerical/alphabetical sequences the original text contains, acting like the things our money has in it to make counterfeiting very difficult. Proof is the inability of the far more numerous enemies of Israel to destroy Israel once and for all.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thankyou for this most excellent post ,one to keep .

You are most welcome. It is a snippet from my blogger article on evidences that back up God’s Word. You can check out all the evidences I have gathered (that I consider to be note worthy) here:

http://lovebranch.blogspot.com/2017/02/evidences-for-word-of-god.html

 

[Almost there]

You do give up financial liberty when you become a sincere Christian: you must start providing for the poor, otherwise, per Jesus: "what good does it do you?"

That is an odd statement. Do you not pay taxes? i.e. who in this country, regardless of religious belief, doesn't provide for the poor?

You cannot say whatever you want, whenever you want. Some things become blasphemous. Other things become wrongful because they are stumbling blocks to others.

That is also an odd statement. It seems that it doesn't take saying much before you are called a racist or homophobe by atheists. Yet the constitution which is based very much on Christian bibles protects free speech.

You have to love your neighbor as a Christian, you cannot simply dismiss somebody begging for help as you can (without qualm) when you are a pagan.

Love is an action. Love is a decision. So is "though love". Remember, even Jesus turned over a few tables.

I am a bloodyminded man, one with a considerable degree of bloodlust, who has always believed that war is the answer to most of the worst international problems, and that the death penalty is the answer to the problem of recidivism for a great variety of crimes (not just murder). I am inclined to want to very aggressively fight those who disturb the peace, nationally and internationally, and believe that the most straightforward way to deal with disturbers of the peace and lawbreakers is to kill them, swiftly and publicly, with overwhelming might, to intimidate the rest of like-minded enemies and scum into keeping the peace. That is my natural viewpoint, and my logical viewpoint, and I put my money and my body where my mouth is for nearly two decades. I love war, and I think that violence is the answer.

You and I are not too far apart on that one. I'm not quite as quick to pull the trigger, but I do believe that people must be protected from dangerous people. Christianity supports that.

With the onset of the reality of Christ, I cannot sustain that view. I still believe it to be so, rationally, but I have to trust that God knows better, and that if we do it His way that it will work out better for us in this life and the next. That is a tremendous leap of faith for me.

Well, I've applied the love and forgiveness meme and it has helped me immensely. I love driving and I drive a LOT (150 mile commute every day). I used to really have problems with road rage. Now I really and sincerely don't. I might get annoyed, but it's mostly funny when I see people do dumb stuff. And doing a couple of dumb things myself gave me some good perspective.

Loss of sexual liberty, and having to change my warrior ethos, are two VERY HARD DEMANDS on me.
I would never give up those things if I didn't know it was true.

I've found that though pure animal sex is fun, making love with the same person and only that one person for decades brings pleasures to the act that a person who "sleeps around" can't even imagine.

 

[Vicomte13]

Good point from the account of the Gospel according to Luke. The Gospel account of Matthew has "a" wicked generation. But that may be mincing words.

I go by John 20.

Me too: Like Thomas, I needed the proof or I would not have been able to believe. God knew that, so he provided me the proof. Ask, and you shall receive, if God wants you to.

 

[Almost there]

Me too: Like John, I needed the proof or I would not have been able to believe. God knew that, so he provided me the proof. Ask, and you shall receive, if God wants you to.

And romans 9 speaks to that. especially verses 16-18.

 

[Vicomte13]

That is an odd statement. Do you not pay taxes? i.e. who in this country, regardless of religious belief, doesn't provide for the poor?

The Jews also paid taxes for poverty relief (that's what the tithe was for). Christians are called to more than taxpaying.

That is also an odd statement. It seems that it doesn't take saying much before you are called a racist or homophobe by atheists. Yet the constitution which is based very much on Christian bibles protects free speech.

It's not a matter of checking political speech but considering the impact of religious speech.

Love is an action. Love is a decision. So is "though love". Remember, even Jesus turned over a few tables.

Love is, above all, a feeling.

You and I are not too far apart on that one. I'm not quite as quick to pull the trigger, but I do believe that people must be protected from dangerous people. Christianity supports that.

Not to the point of nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or firebombing Dresden it doesn't.

Well, I've applied the love and forgiveness meme and it has helped me immensely. I love driving and I drive a LOT (150 mile commute every day). I used to really have problems with road rage. Now I really and sincerely don't. I might get annoyed, but it's mostly funny when I see people do dumb stuff. And doing a couple of dumb things myself gave me some good perspective.

I've always been cold blooded. I don't believe there is much virtue in fighting. It's dangerous and expensive. Peace brings prosperity. The quickest way to peace, in my estimation, is to swiftly kill your enemies from a distance.

I've found that though pure animal sex is fun, making love with the same person and only that one person for decades brings pleasures to the act that a person who "sleeps around" can't even imagine.

I suppose. In any case I don't test the theory because God is watching. When I didn't think he existed as a "he" who cared, I did what pleased me without guilt.