we have no proofs about the existence of god

MyGivenNameIsKeith

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i remember that jesus said: This evil generation ask for proofs, but not any proof will be given to them but the proof of Jonah
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Gustav, remember Biblical faith is not just "believing". Biblical faith is based on an object, that object being God, God's Character, God's Word, God's revelation, God's past record of dealing with men, the evidence that God has given in which to place our trust in (Hebrews 11:1). Then faith is putting that belief and trust into action.
 
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aiki

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maybe spiritual proofs but not material proofs that unbelievers want

Imagine a mother in a courtroom whose son has just been convicted of murder. For weeks the mother has listened to the mountain of damning evidence against her son. But when the unavoidable guilty verdict is given, she leaps up from her seat and cries, "No! It's a lie! It's all a lie! My son is not a murderer!" The enormous prior emotional, relational and biological connections of the mother to her son trump any and all evidence that has been, or could be, given. No matter what might be presented to her as evidence of her son's guilt, she simply won't believe it.

I've met many atheists for whom the same is true. No matter what evidence you might supply in defense of your faith, they have a prior philosophical and moral prejudice against your evidence that prevents them from accepting it as valid. This is why it is always a miracle when God penetrates all this prejudice and resistance and redeems people - especially adults - from it.

The problem, though, isn't that there isn't good reason to believe that the revelation of the Bible is true. There are a multitude of excellent philosophical, experiential, and historical reasons to be a Christian. You can find many of them spelled out here:

www.reasonablefaith.org
www.crossexamined.org
www.coldcasechristianity.com
www.str.org

In fact, I think there is no other religion on the planet that has anywhere near as robust an apologetic as the Christian religion has. The real problem for the unrepentant sinner isn't evidence and reason. The Bible tells us what's really going on:

John 3:19-20
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.


Romans 1:21-23
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


It is because this is true of the lost person that it is impossible to argue them into God's kingdom. God must act as only He can and convict the lost of their sin, and illuminate their mind, and draw them to Himself. So it is the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:24-25
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,


While all this is true, giving a defense of the faith, having sound reasons for it, is still vital. All believers are under the command of God to be able defenders of their faith:

1 Peter 3:15
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
 
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Cat Loaf You

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I wouldn't say that. We have proof of God, but many don't accept that proof.

Life is proof of God.

The more and more that scientists look at what must occur for life to exist that are finding it more and more an impossibility. Scientist cannot explain the mechanics of how DNA came into being. They cannot explain how a creature could change their cellular structure in order to create a brain or form the necessary bodily functions to begin to see.

If life cannot create itself something intelligent did. And that something is God.

Scientists can't even define what energy is .
 
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JIMINZ

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funny how many of you try to prove the existence of god referring the bible, but what proofs the bible was written by the holy spirit?, what proof you have that holy spirit exists?

if an atheist comes to this forum and ask for proofs we got nothing, the atheist must make an exercise of humility and just decide to believe.

what proof we have that a man-god named jesus was born 2018 years ago? we haven't, but we christian decided to just believe

so we never can be arrogant respect to our belief
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How was it with you, did you require and receive Proofs before you believed, because I sure didn't.

Wow, imagine a human being having to exercise humility towards God.
 
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JIMINZ

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i remember that jesus said: This evil generation ask for proofs, but not any proof will be given to them but the proof of Jonah
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Jesus was only speaking to His Generation of Jews at that time, that the sign of Jonah was all they would get, because The Messiah (Himself) (Being the Greater) was in their presence and the were rejecting Him.
 
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JIMINZ

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This is such an insight, I remember the eye opening importance of remembering those passages of Scripture and the value of them while contending for the faith with non-believers. Romans Chapter 1:18-32 also helped shed light, from it we see that non-believers do believe, but suppress that knowledge, and in the process deceive themselves to the point of believing the lie concerning the existence of God. Which is why all the empirical proof in the world would not convince them. And if we take a further look in Scripture, concerning non-believers we read..

The non-believer is dead in sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1), and does not want interaction with the true God of Scripture.

1 Cor 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jn 14:16-18 - And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees Him nor knows Him

Jn 3:18-21 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.


Romans 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Not only do they not want the truth (Jesus), but cannot the receive things of the Spirit of God, nor please God.

However, because we do not have certain knowledge of who is elect or not among us, we are like farmers sowing seed, while God gives the growth or not.
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If your really interested in knowing who exactly were the Elect, then do a word search on (ELECT) in your Bible with a good Concordance, where every use of the word in the New Testament is recorded.
 
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JIMINZ

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One definition of faith is: "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

So then why do we argue over who has proof, who does not, and who, if anyone, has the burden of proof? I'm not trying to get smart, I'm truly asking "why?"

I accepted God's invitation to me because my heart told me it was right; not because of any kind of "proof" shown to me by another person.

I'm new to faith, not just this forum, so maybe I'm naïve. I would tell someone asking for proof that he/she should ask his/her heart for the proof. Is that too "out there?" lol
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No, it's the perfect answer, because it is the Truth.
 
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JIMINZ

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In summation on the question of Proofs for. the Un-Believer this is all we need to know.

1Co 3:6-10
6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

I plant seeds in the heart of the Un-Believer, as many seeds as I am able, someone else at some other time waters those seeds, maybe more than one person waters them, but finally in God's time, He Gives the Increase, and that seed grows, blossoming into Salvation for the Un-Believer.

Well done my good and Faithful servant, we have done what we could when we could, we cannot give others Salvation because Salvation is only in one and He is Jesus.
 
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Argument from incredulity - RationalWiki

Darwin probably knew that one and wouldn’t have bothered......
Argument from incredulity - RationalWiki

Darwin probably knew that one and wouldn’t have bothered......
I just read the definition in your link. That describes the atheist's viewpoint regarding God.
"...someone decides that something did not happen, because they cannot personally understand how it could happen."

Regarding evolution, I understand how it could happen, I just think the odds are statistically zero that it did happen. There is infinitely (literally) more evidence for a creator.
 
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Favourofone

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Regarding evolution, I understand how it could happen, I just think the odds are statistically zero that it did happen. There is infinitely (literally) more evidence for a creator.

If you remember you were saying if Darwin had known how complex it all was he would have gone for Creator explanation so the argument from incredulity would have been his to commit not yours.

Being intelligent and logical he likely would have stood by his observed facts and further evidence would just have deepened his theory as has happened in modern times as our knowledge has grown.

That you arrive at completely different conclusions than Darwin did despite vastly more expanded scientific knowledge available today is probably due to different personal characteristics between you two.
 
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If you remember you were saying if Darwin had known how complex it all was he would have gone for Creator explanation so the argument from incredulity would have been his to commit not yours.

Being intelligent and logical he likely would have stood by his observed facts and further evidence would just have deepened his theory as has happened in modern times as our knowledge has grown.

That you arrive at completely different conclusions than Darwin did despite vastly more expanded scientific knowledge available today is probably due to different personal characteristics between you two.
I'm simply saying that the more complex we find out that life is, the harder it is to accept the idea that so many necessary changes to "improve" a life form could be a likely cause of the origin of species. The more we know, the more we know we don't know. Back in the 19th century, life didn't seem as complicated as we know it to be now. And if the Lord waits, how complicated will we have discovered it is in, say, a hundred years.

One example: DNA is like a computer program. It's complicated. We've since learned that it is even like a computer program using JCL (job control language). That is, the exact same program (DNA) can give you different results depending on the way it's run. That is an additional complexity we've discovered.
 
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Favourofone

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I'm simply saying that the more complex we find out that life is, the harder it is to accept the idea that so many necessary changes to "improve" a life form could be a likely cause of the origin of species. The more we know, the more we know we don't know. Back in the 19th century, life didn't seem as complicated as we know it to be now. And if the Lord waits, how complicated will we have discovered it is in, say, a hundred years.

One example: DNA is like a computer program. It's complicated. We've since learned that it is even like a computer program using JCL (job control language). That is, the exact same program (DNA) can give you different results depending on the way it's run. That is an additional complexity we've discovered.

Which is exactly the logical fallacy we were talking about.

Do you think ancient Egyptians would have understood how complex your newest aircraft carrier is.

USS Gerald R. Ford - Wikipedia

Imagine the theory, planning, skill , resources and manufacturing capability that went to it.

To them sky chariots of Gods would have been nothing beside it.

Yet, human scientist invented the theories, human engineers made the plans and manufactured it while resources of nation far beyond their imagination financed it.

And we now know nothing about it is magical. Everything that would have been a miracle transcending their gods to those Egyptians we can demonstrate and duplicate.
 
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Vicomte13

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i remember that jesus said: This evil generation ask for proofs, but not any proof will be given to them but the proof of Jonah

Yes. He did say that. And that generation died out 1900 years ago. He did not say "Every generation...", he said, to the Jews listening to him, "THIS evil generation [of Jews - because nobody else was listening to him]..."

This is one of the basic problems of reading Scripture. People ignore the verb tenses and ignore who is saying what to whom, and assume that what they read is addressed directly to them, as opposed to what it frequently is: a specific conversation between specific people, and commands addressed to specific people, in a specific time and specific place, not all people for all times.
 
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Which is exactly the logical fallacy we were talking about.

Do you think ancient Egyptians would have understood how complex your newest aircraft carrier is.

USS Gerald R. Ford - Wikipedia

Imagine the theory, planning, skill , resources and manufacturing capability that went to it.

To them sky chariots of Gods would have been nothing beside it.

Yet, human scientist invented the theories, human engineers made the plans and manufactured it while resources of nation far beyond their imagination financed it.

And we now know nothing about it is magical. Everything that would have been a miracle transcending their gods to those Egyptians we can demonstrate and duplicate.
Believe it or not, I agree with your sentiments, up to a point. As someone else pointed out, however, once you establish a relationship with the Creator, there is no turning back. But to be clear, my comments regarding "evolution" are mostly focused on the origin of Species, not that there are not mutations that stick.

And I look at much of the "supernatural" goings on, especially in the OT, and think of the aliens in the movie Knowing, which is clearly inspired by angels in the bible and Ezekiel 1 (particularly verse 16), and then Ezekiel 43:3 speaks of a vision where he sees them again. To a modern american, that sounds suspiciously like a UFO, though the "U" doesn't seem to apply regarding its source.

People too often think of God as the God of backward shepherds. I see God, miracles and creation as something more amazing than anything envisioned in any science fiction or science fantasy story, but as told by "ignorant" shepherds, and being revealed by our Creator in such a way as to not "give away the store". I think the saved are going to be shocked at what eternity looks like, both physically and in it's functionality as well as their own abilities and interactions with it.
 
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Vicomte13

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So then why do we argue over who has proof, who does not, and who, if anyone, has the burden of proof? I'm not trying to get smart, I'm truly asking "why?"

Because people like me will not believe something contrary to our own experience, particularly when it is earnestly advocated by people we do not respect. That's why.

The Muslims make the same earnest and frenetic arguments for their faith as many Christians do. And they are no more believable.

Religion is demanding, expensive and self-limiting. No rational person should give away so much to a fairy tale unless the fairy tale can prove itself.

Christianity can prove itself, and it is because of that proof that I follow it.
 
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fat wee robin

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No. Just pure faith. Nothing else is needed
So reading about Jesus ',hearing Him 'speak ', the winess of others had nothing to do with it !!!!
You are even better than all the apostles who took a bit of time to be completely convinced ; in other words , Jesus allowed some time for them to truly understand , to be complete in their faith .

I am not saying I do not believe you ,as maybe you were a Christian ,'born' a christian ,as some are .
 
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Because people like me will not believe something contrary to our own experience, particularly when it is earnestly advocated by people we do not respect. That's why.

The Muslims make the same earnest and frenetic arguments for their faith as many Christians do. And they are no more believable.

Religion is demanding, expensive and self-limiting. No rational person should give away so much to a fairy tale unless the fairy tale can prove itself.

Christianity can prove itself, and it is because of that proof that I follow it.
What are you giving up?
 
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