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Featured we have no proofs about the existence of god

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by gustavchristianartist, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. gustavchristianartist

    gustavchristianartist Active Member

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    maybe spiritual proofs but not material proofs that unbelievers want
     
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  2. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    I'm not sure the Lord wants us to be able to prove that he exists. However, if you walk with him, he will solve all your problems for you.
     
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  3. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

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    I agree theres no proof. And some of the more significant doctrines we base significant views on have no frame of reference eg Genesis - we dont know who wrote it or when though there lots of theories on it. This means our views on Creation, The flood, Adam/Eve etc are not evidence based, with the reference material to back it up being open to doubts because of its unknown origin. So this of course then opens the religion to varying interpretations with some taking a literal view and others seeing a potential for a not so literal view. But does it matter. Is your understanding of who you are and what our life and this universe is so dependent on proof. If your like me then OK yes some aspects do need some elements of evidence - for me that's why I support evolution. But others don't - Do you know what sold me GOD? ironically its science - The whole concept of a singularity suddenly emerging with space and time beginning within that singularity - to me thats like whoa - freakishly in line with Genesis regardless of who or when it was written..... well these are my musings on your topic.

    Thank you for posting the thread.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I provide instructions for both types of results.
    The issue is that if people could demand
    material goods - on demand then it would
    give them the powers of a God. Only Jesus
    can handle that kind of ego trip and survive it.

    God does provide, but He provides on His terms
    so He provides the prayer, then He provides the
    goods as well. That keeps mans ego in check.
    **100% Answered Prayers - Steps 1, 2, & 3 **

    PS God is looking for faith....so
    the demands of unbelievers are
    secondary to that

    PPS - God provides all materials!
    19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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  6. Greg Merrill

    Greg Merrill Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that we have no proofs that God exists!!! His "fingerprints" are "all over the place." Psalms 19:1 says "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handiwork." Either the Bible is dependable or it is not; and it is. Mount Rushmore, and footprints in the sand, as well as fingerprints are "proofs" that people have walked this planet. There are all kinds of evidence of "intelligent design" in every cell of every living organism, and more. "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God." Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1.
    Thought I would add the link below for those serious enough to read an article that uses a scientific study that produces "proof" of the existence of God behind creation.
    Shapes, Numbers, Patterns, And The Divine Proportion In God's Creation | The Institute for Creation Research
    Another "interesting" link that goes with this thread, though not totally all-conclusive, but food for thought, is found below:
    Bible & Mathematics | Christian Assemblies International
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  7. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Jesus told the story about the rich man who went to hell and asked Abraham to send someone back to tell his brothers not to come to this place. Abraham told him that if they won't believe the Law and the Prophets, it won't make any difference if someone was raised from the dead to warn them because they wouldn't believe him either.

    The Pharisees of Jesus' time witnessed His miracles yet they did not believe in Him and conspired to kill Him because He threatened their status and their approach to their religion.

    So if people won't believe the Bible, then all the empirical proof in the world won't convince them of the truth of the Gospel because the devil has blinded their minds so that they cannot see or understand what the Gospel is all about.
     
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  8. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps its an interpretation of the meaning of proof. In my definition proof allows the movement of a hypothesis towards being simply fact by conclusively excluding all other explanations other than the existence of GOD. Saying it or writing it wont make it proof.

    Eg two objects of different weights will fall at the same rate. We test it and remove all possible causes for the observed phenomena. Your referral to God's "fingerprint" develops your belief but isnt a proof as it isnt possible to remove other explanations for the observed phenomena. If there WAS proof, there would never be any debates or doubts and the whole world would be christian or at least theists.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  9. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lee Strobel, an investigative reporter, went about it another way. As an atheist he tried to prove that there was no evidence to support the Resurrection. By doing this he became convinced that the Resurrection of Christ must be true.
     
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  10. Greg Merrill

    Greg Merrill Well-Known Member

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    I can accept your last statement. In tons of court cases proof is produced but it doesn't always convince everybody one way or the other. Actually when you look for other reasonable explanations for some of the proofs of God, they just can't be found. The original writings of the Bible, written over a period of 1600 years, by forty different men chosen by God to write them down, and having absolutely no mistakes, no contradictions, can not be explained by anything else than God being behind it. Sure that statement can be picked apart using human, fallible, incorrect reasoning, but that is a whole nuther ballgame. It still comes down to people are going to chose to believe what "they want" to believe and keep arguing their own belief.
     
  11. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

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    And that's the OPs issue. There's no proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Lots of espoused facts cannot be fact_checked eg Moses and the sea separating. There's no way of speaking to the author even if we knew who it was. This is the point of the OP and why religion has faith challenges
     
  12. gustavchristianartist

    gustavchristianartist Active Member

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    the same manner a satanist could say the heavens declare the glory of satan, he has no proofs
     
  13. gustavchristianartist

    gustavchristianartist Active Member

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    kinda obvious my brother, and not obvious at the same time
     
  14. gustavchristianartist

    gustavchristianartist Active Member

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    easily somebody could say the same about the koran, or say that satan wrote the bible, what proof the satanist has? none, what proof we christians have? none, only our faith, there lies our grace, not in much reasoning
     
  15. Favourofone

    Favourofone Member

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  16. Greg Merrill

    Greg Merrill Well-Known Member

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    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them. 1 Corinthians 2:14. See also 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. I copy below just one supposed Bible Contradiction from the list given in blue above.
    GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
    GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.
    Simple explanation. Adam did die the very day he ate, spiritually.
    He lived on physically that day, but not spiritually until he was spiritually restored to favor again by God.
    All the supposed contradictions, inconsistencies, errors, that people present have explanations to show God's Word is accurate and trustworthy.
     
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  17. Favourofone

    Favourofone Member

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    So even if those are explanations are written outside The Bible you feel they are God inspired as well ?

    GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
    HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

    And someone explains this really was his janitor being rowdy so one his sons wasn’t really his. This makes up for lack of consistency?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  18. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly why it is called FAITH, otherwise it would be called touch it and believe.

    Unbelievers are not the authority by which God is determined.

    An unbeliever will remain an unbeliever until God reveals Himself to the unbeliever and then Draws him to Himself through Jesus Christ.

    There isn't one former unbeliever which is able to claim, he determined the day of his own Salvation.
     
  19. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Active Member

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    The Apostle Paul was directly quoting Genesis 22 which labels Isaac as Abraham's only begotten son.

    Abraham sent away both Hagar and Ishmael in Genesis 21.

    Only Isaac was to directly inherit from Abraham, though God promised to provide for Ishmael and his mother.
     
  20. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Active Member

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    I think that the Christian claim is succinctly stated in Romans 1:20

    What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    Dis-believers are not being logically self consistent with their own dis-belief.

    If the Israelites under Moses and Joshua had just walked out of the wilderness making incredible claims about the Red Sea event... then as dis-believers themselves show, nobody would have believed them and they would just have been laughed at!

    But that was never the case. Whatever happened at the Red Sea was so miraculous that everyone around the region, at the time, knew all about it and feared (Ex 15:15)

    The peoples have heard, they tremble;
    Anguish has gripped the inhabitants of Philistia.

    “Then the chiefs of Edom were dismayed;
    The leaders of Moab, trembling grips them;
    All the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.

    “Terror and dread fall upon them;

    The Red Sea event was widely reported and recognized as unusual and miraculous by every human alive at the place and time. That was the only reason any of the Canaanites took them seriously. If there had been no evidence of the "wild outlandish claim" then, by the very human predilection to disbelief, nobody anywhere would have believed it!

    What did Moses do, gather all the Israelites and have a secret huddle and tell them, "alright, here's our plan... Let's just make believe that we escaped Egypt when... say... the Egyptian army was drowned in a freak tsunami... yeah we'll make up a story about a tidal wave and trick everyone into believing it!"

    The miraculous events, which have been attributed to God's Divine Powers, have been widely witnessed and reported over the centuries and millennia.

    If nothing had ever happened, then no one would have ever tried to "hang hats" on the phony claims.

    Dis-believing the eye witness accounts of every miraculous event, as noted in Scripture, and then using that denial to deny the Works of God, is circular non reasoning.

    How do dis-believers account for the numerous eye witness accounts of miracles? Where does the entire pattern of apparently miraculous Divine Interventions in terrestrial human affairs, for thousands and thousands of years, all come from?

    Something is going on, on planet earth...


    For the sake of trying to truly fair and balanced, I myself acknowledge that some amount of exaggeration might be possible... as well as a mis-attribution to "God in heaven" of perfectly natural but rare Earthly "geophysical" events (say).

    Not what I think but I acknowledge that those kinds of claims would be harder to argue against
     
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